Whisper and Soontir get to move their ships several ship lengths after or before a largely open dial. A defender gets to barrel roll from a limited dial. I'm comparing them to every competitive ship you can get for the same cost, especially closers because that's how they are being sold here.

Whisper isn't that great as a closer, especially vs a Defender.

But the defender isn't an arc dodger, so why does it matter that it can't arc dodge like an interceptor?

It matters that it can't arc dodge or stack tokens because it has subpar jousting stats that need to be overcome. If you're playing the jousting game, it's all about the numbers. The Defender turns into a one trick pony (ok, maybe two if you count the control cannons) when it comes to trying to get value above it's predicted jousting stats. If a Defender can't get it done with white K-turns it doesn't have a lot going for it.

Ah, I see, so defenders are just waiting for a messiah that will lead them to the promised land of Topfour.

Who wants to be the chosen one? Any volunteers...?

The Defender has had a number of staunch supporters since it dropped. If it isn't making waves in the meta it isn't for lack of trying.

Exactly. Other ships that were widely panned at release have fought their way into the competitive meta.

But the defender isn't an arc dodger, so why does it matter that it can't arc dodge like an interceptor?

Because it also can't tank damage like Han or Corran. It just dies when you point guns at it.

Also, there are quite a few in this thread claiming that it is an arc dodger.

If the defender is so weak, and interceptor like Soontir are so much better, why was buffing interceptors (autothrusters) more important than something to help defenders?

Ehhhh...devil's advocate time (as in, I somewhat agree with the OP that the TIE Defender is a but underrated)...BUT...

...the TIE Interceptor is a wave 2 release, while the TIE Defender is a wave 4 release.

And we only just...*JUST*...got the fix to rebalance TIE Interceptor vs its other wave 2 release (the turreted Falcon). Assuming FFG lets an issue bake to really ensure that it's a problem...we are still at *least* two waves away from a fix for the TIE Defender.

So I wouldn't read too much into the Interceptor being issued a fix in this last wave while the Defender hasn't been. FFG seems to be very cautious about such things, which - honestly - I *seriously* appreciate.

The TIE Advanced is a Wave 1 ship and we are still waiting for the fix for that.

Sure, and it's been announced in the next release.

Which somewhat proves the point.

We are only just now getting fixes for wave 1-2 releases (TIE Advanced, TIE Interceptor, and very recently the A-Wing).

The TIE Defender is wave 4. Will it get a fix? At this point, there is really no way to know. FFG, as noted, appears to be super cautious about pushing out meta-shaking rebalancing-fixes. I'm grateful for that, and hope (if they do release a fix for the TIE Defender), that it's well considered and carefully balanced.

If the defender is so weak, and interceptor like Soontir are so much better, why was buffing interceptors (autothrusters) more important than something to help defenders?

Ehhhh...devil's advocate time (as in, I somewhat agree with the OP that the TIE Defender is a but underrated)...BUT...

...the TIE Interceptor is a wave 2 release, while the TIE Defender is a wave 4 release.

And we only just...*JUST*...got the fix to rebalance TIE Interceptor vs its other wave 2 release (the turreted Falcon). Assuming FFG lets an issue bake to really ensure that it's a problem...we are still at *least* two waves away from a fix for the TIE Defender.

So I wouldn't read too much into the Interceptor being issued a fix in this last wave while the Defender hasn't been. FFG seems to be very cautious about such things, which - honestly - I *seriously* appreciate.

The TIE Advanced is a Wave 1 ship and we are still waiting for the fix for that.

it's almost here

Ah, I see, so defenders are just waiting for a messiah that will lead them to the promised land of Topfour.

Who wants to be the chosen one? Any volunteers...?

The Defender has had a number of staunch supporters since it dropped. If it isn't making waves in the meta it isn't for lack of trying.

yes it is

how many of us staunch supporters has the time available to make it to worlds ?

and hell, how big is that "number of staunch supporters?" how well represented are they relative to the other tournie goers?

The guy who is arguably one of the most competent defender players in the game took it to World's. Did not make the cut.

arguable relative to what? why did he not make the cut? was he consistently outplayed? did the dice fail? was the ship really as sub-par as conjectured by some in this post?

we could go on for days

Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

In fact, I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Slightly easier, actually, because of only needing 1 kill shot vs 2.

I have respect for the work you've done, but comments like this suggest to me that you're not thinking beyond your jousting values enough. I fully agree that if both were sitting stationary in space while some other ship took shots at them, this is accurate, but the two ships fly so completely differently that their on-table durability favors the Defender quite a bit more than the math suggests. Due to 3 red dice and a probable cannon upgrade, Defenders fight much better at range. They start doing damage earlier, and they do their full damage until destroyed. The K-turn allows them to make moves to avoid shots and then re-engage in ways that TIE fighters can't. So yes, in the same situations, 1 Defender dies a little faster than 2 TIE Fighters, but because Defenders are long-range combatants and TIE fighters are close-range brawlers, they should not be in many of the same situations.

The Defender is one of my favorite ships to play but it needs something else to make it to the top tier of competitve play. I don't think that the new cannons, Fleet Officer, or the fix to the Advanced will be what pushes it over the top but they are all steps in the right direction.

It's just too **** bad that the Defender didn't get the Systems slot instead of the Phantom.

Yeah, no. People complain about Whisper or Echo now, but think about Rexler Brath with VI, Advanced Sensors, and Engine Upgrade. He'd be able to boost or barrel roll, then white K-turn, so to stop him they'd need to block all the places he could boost to, and the 4-k itself. Imagine if there was an Aggressor pilot who could take a 4k, 6k, and both 3S-loops with the same dial selection, at PS10, every turn.

They don't see competitive play. That's not because people just haven't figured them out.

Actually they do, and perform well for their limited showing. They're just not as present and part of the usual copy-paste meta lists.

http://xwing.macker.co/ship.php?s=14&d=90&f=0

If you take the time to go on that site and look at the performance of the top ranked build including Rexler or Vessery, you'll realise that they placed 1st and 2nd a lot of time. I myself placed first with a build including Vessery and I would feel very confident to take the same build to the Regional and fare well (for my limited skills that is).

I'm not sure how to get any useful data out of that site. What I'm seeing over at the List Juggler site is that lists containing a Defender have made the top 4, in Store Championships that cut to championship rounds, a total of 9 times. All but two of those lists had the Defender escorting a VT-49. Only 2 of those were 1st place.

That's not exactly a great showing.

2015-03-14: Jax+RGP+Rexler took 2nd; attendance 33

2015-02-28: Rexler+Vessery took 2nd; attendance 14

2015-02-15: Rexler+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 30

2015-03-07: Rexler+Chiraneau took 2nd; attendance 14

2015-02-15: Rexler+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 24

2015-02-07: Rexler+Chiraneau took 2nd; attendance 26

2015-03-07: Rexler+Kenkirk took 1st: attendance 10

2015-03-07: Vessery+Echo+OMG took 1st; attendance 15

2015-02-08: Vessery+Soontir+OMG took 1st; attendance 10

2015-03-07: Vessery+Soontir+OMG took 2nd; attendance 10

2015-01-11: Vessery+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 17

2015-02-07: Vessery+Kenkirk took 2nd; attendance 26

2015-01-25: Delta+OMG+Whisper took 1st; attendance 10

I say that it is not that bad.

As for discrediting the ship performance because he's with a Decimator, should we also dismiss all the Phantom showing when paired with a Decimator?

That second entry is me, and I'm pretty sure mine were the only two Defenders there.

Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

In fact, I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Slightly easier, actually, because of only needing 1 kill shot vs 2.

I have respect for the work you've done, but comments like this suggest to me that you're not thinking beyond your jousting values enough. I fully agree that if both were sitting stationary in space while some other ship took shots at them, this is accurate, but the two ships fly so completely differently that their on-table durability favors the Defender quite a bit more than the math suggests. Due to 3 red dice and a probable cannon upgrade, Defenders fight much better at range. They start doing damage earlier, and they do their full damage until destroyed. The K-turn allows them to make moves to avoid shots and then re-engage in ways that TIE fighters can't. So yes, in the same situations, 1 Defender dies a little faster than 2 TIE Fighters, but because Defenders are long-range combatants and TIE fighters are close-range brawlers, they should not be in many of the same situations.

Yes, I was just talking about the raw stat line. That seemed to be the immediate context of the comment above that I was responding to. It was implied that 6 hit points = 6 hit points, but with shields. Obviously once you include the dial coefficient to account for an increased relative firing duty cycle then it will perform better.

But the defender isn't an arc dodger, so why does it matter that it can't arc dodge like an interceptor?

It matters that it can't arc dodge or stack tokens because it has subpar jousting stats that need to be overcome. If you're playing the jousting game, it's all about the numbers. The Defender turns into a one trick pony (ok, maybe two if you count the control cannons) when it comes to trying to get value above it's predicted jousting stats. If a Defender can't get it done with white K-turns it doesn't have a lot going for it.

didn't see this have to reply

there's a very simple simple way to overcome this "all about numbers" nonsense, and that's just take control of the joust. If the Defender shoots and the target does not, jousting values mean exactly nothing

this is incredibly easy to do when you have the white 4k, even more easy if you have a control cannon. Titled Y-wings are also very capable of completely invalidating jousting values with ion cannon turrets (plus potential TL off of R4) and a 4k of their own.

arguable relative to what? why did he not make the cut? was he consistently outplayed? did the dice fail? was the ship really as sub-par as conjectured by some in this post?

we could go on for days

Arguably one of the best because he flies it a lot at big competitions and regularly holds his own against top players. You were suggesting above that "real" defender defenders didn't take it to World's. They did. They just didn't do real well.

The Defender is one of my favorite ships to play but it needs something else to make it to the top tier of competitve play. I don't think that the new cannons, Fleet Officer, or the fix to the Advanced will be what pushes it over the top but they are all steps in the right direction.

It's just too **** bad that the Defender didn't get the Systems slot instead of the Phantom.

Yeah, no. People complain about Whisper or Echo now, but think about Rexler Brath with VI, Advanced Sensors, and Engine Upgrade. He'd be able to boost or barrel roll, then white K-turn, so to stop him they'd need to block all the places he could boost to, and the 4-k itself. Imagine if there was an Aggressor pilot who could take a 4k, 6k, and both 3S-loops with the same dial selection, at PS10, every turn.

Brath would be the threat that he should be. He's costing you almost half your list (more than half your list if you put an HLC on him).

Whisper and Soontir get to move their ships several ship lengths after or before a largely open dial. A defender gets to barrel roll from a limited dial. I'm comparing them to every competitive ship you can get for the same cost, especially closers because that's how they are being sold here.

Whisper isn't that great as a closer, especially vs a Defender.

This is complete nonsense. If you lose a late game vs a defender as whisper you have made made terrible choices. Ps10 Rex has a SLIGHT chance of victory(limited by Whisper's ability to easily block a K then randomly firing in from the sides every turn thereafter). Every other build of defender has no chance at all short of the phantom beaching on a rock or flying off the board. It doesn't matter if you can K turn with actions against a ship that can fire at you from three different positions(+barrel roll) that it picks after you have moved. This makes like 4 people now who have claimed that a defender can get the jump on Whisper. I'm about ready to call Poe.

You seem to think that Whisper has unlimited movement and positioning potential. Most of the time you'll only have 2 good decloak positions and maybe only one. You still have to pick your movement ahead of time and that movement usually only works well with one specific decloak direction.

Whisper is usually pretty easy to guess. Now if you said Echo on the other hand...

arguable relative to what? why did he not make the cut? was he consistently outplayed? did the dice fail? was the ship really as sub-par as conjectured by some in this post?

we could go on for days

Arguably one of the best because he flies it a lot at big competitions and regularly holds his own against top players. You were suggesting above that "real" defender defenders didn't take it to World's. They did. They just didn't do real well.

you're going to have to quote where I used "real" in any way shape or form

that is a disgusting vague and elitist adjective that I abhor using or seeing used in any context, since it's mostly just used to shore up weak rhetoric at the readers' expense

all I asked was how well represented said "staunch Defender"...defenders were at high profile events/who many had the time to make it to them when they could very easily be far away from home. Citing just one guy leads me to think "not very," and as skilled as he may or may not be, I wouldn't want to dump the complex notion of viability on the feet of just one gamer at just one event.

Whisper and Soontir get to move their ships several ship lengths after or before a largely open dial. A defender gets to barrel roll from a limited dial. I'm comparing them to every competitive ship you can get for the same cost, especially closers because that's how they are being sold here.

Whisper isn't that great as a closer, especially vs a Defender.

This is complete nonsense. If you lose a late game vs a defender as whisper you have made made terrible choices. Ps10 Rex has a SLIGHT chance of victory(limited by Whisper's ability to easily block a K then randomly firing in from the sides every turn thereafter). Every other build of defender has no chance at all short of the phantom beaching on a rock or flying off the board. It doesn't matter if you can K turn with actions against a ship that can fire at you from three different positions(+barrel roll) that it picks after you have moved. This makes like 4 people now who have claimed that a defender can get the jump on Whisper. I'm about ready to call Poe.

What? PS10 Rexler should take Whisper pretty regularly, although the reliance on green dice of both sides gives each a chance. Who cares if a K is blocked? The Defender will just do it again. Low PS Defenders have a puncher's chance with an HLC because at range 3 it doesn't really matter how many movement shenanigans Whisper can pull, and asteroids can be used to limit her options. They aren't (and shouldn't be) favored, but they can make Whisper work for it.

The guy who is arguably one of the most competent defender players in the game took it to World's. Did not make the cut.

And the game as a whole is a whole lot larger than the top 32 at Worlds. I know Hothie had to fight a Defender build to make the cut. I am fine with it being a solid tier 1.5 ship. Not a gatekeeper of the meta, but doesn't embarrass itself. And going forward, you are going to find it much, much harder to see all the ships in top 32.

They don't see competitive play. That's not because people just haven't figured them out.

Actually they do, and perform well for their limited showing. They're just not as present and part of the usual copy-paste meta lists.

http://xwing.macker.co/ship.php?s=14&d=90&f=0

If you take the time to go on that site and look at the performance of the top ranked build including Rexler or Vessery, you'll realise that they placed 1st and 2nd a lot of time. I myself placed first with a build including Vessery and I would feel very confident to take the same build to the Regional and fare well (for my limited skills that is).

I'm not sure how to get any useful data out of that site. What I'm seeing over at the List Juggler site is that lists containing a Defender have made the top 4, in Store Championships that cut to championship rounds, a total of 9 times. All but two of those lists had the Defender escorting a VT-49. Only 2 of those were 1st place.

That's not exactly a great showing.

2015-03-14: Jax+RGP+Rexler took 2nd; attendance 33

2015-02-28: Rexler+Vessery took 2nd; attendance 14

2015-02-15: Rexler+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 30

2015-03-07: Rexler+Chiraneau took 2nd; attendance 14

2015-02-15: Rexler+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 24

2015-02-07: Rexler+Chiraneau took 2nd; attendance 26

2015-03-07: Rexler+Kenkirk took 1st: attendance 10

2015-03-07: Vessery+Echo+OMG took 1st; attendance 15

2015-02-08: Vessery+Soontir+OMG took 1st; attendance 10

2015-03-07: Vessery+Soontir+OMG took 2nd; attendance 10

2015-01-11: Vessery+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 17

2015-02-07: Vessery+Kenkirk took 2nd; attendance 26

2015-01-25: Delta+OMG+Whisper took 1st; attendance 10

I say that it is not that bad.

As for discrediting the ship performance because he's with a Decimator, should we also dismiss all the Phantom showing when paired with a Decimator?

Those results look similar to what I got, with the exception that some of the smaller tournaments would have been filtered out of my results.

I don't know that the Decimator was the ship that showed up in the largest amount of Top 4 lists but it would not surprise me if it did. The results show that you can run **** near anything to fill out the remaining 40ish points in a Decimator list and be competitive.

Yet, we don't see Decimators with Advanced, Bombers, Shuttle or Firespray. You can take the verdict you want from those results: You see that Decimators can be run with anything, I see that Defender is a valid choice as escort. A good ship for the role.

Vessery has a TL if you bring someone else with a TL and they haven't died or spent it yet. Soontir has 2 focus and an evade and you probably don't have arc on him anyways. Whisper has a focus and an evade and you almost certainly don't have arc. I your experience tells you that Vessery and Rexlar are as hard to kill as other closers then someone is using those other closers wrong.

Here we go with the using them wrong argument. You don't fly them like you would fly Soontir or Whsiper. But a Defender is one of the best ship to have in a end game, you can't shake them off. If Soontir is stress, something that happens quite often I guess, you know where he won,t be pointing at next round. With a Defender, you just can't. Technically speaking, if nobody has an arc on Soontir, there is very high chances that he won't have 2 focus and an evade, since he will have barrel rolled and boosted out of the way. He will probably have a focus for offense, that's if he kept his line of sight while dodging arc. Good but not great.

Now, if you bring Vessery on the table, I sincerely hope so that you also brought some ships that can TL for him. If not, that's not the ship fault but the list design. When I play Vessery, I love to pair him with 2 Scimitars. They act as scout for the TLs and blockers, they can also take a beating so they are not that easy to bring down. If my opponent choose to target them first, congratulation! he just fell for the trap. While he concentrate on the little buggers, I can shoot him with a 3-4 attack dice with F+TL every round. If he decide to go for Vessery, I keep my focus for defense. But no matter what, as long as I have at least a bomber in play, I will always be able to shoot with a TL, stress or not. Now, a Bomber with only 1 or 2 health can be suprisingly fast.

Different beast for different task.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but if your opponents "can't shake" a TIE defender then they are pretty subpar. A defender in the late game will lose to every common closer. Ps10 Rexlar might have a chance at Whisper, but any other closer or any other defender and it's probably GG. Echoing other people's comments above I don't really see how you can play regularly and think the defender compares to the other things you can get for the price.

Curious here, care to elaborate a little on that every common closer list? We have named Phantom, of course, because that's their strength, dodging arc and what not (and I said named Phantom because I would not bet all my money on a regular Phantom versus a regular Defender). Probably Soontir, but that would be arguable and left to the players, because I would not automatically bet on Soontir either... but then again, my opponents are pretty subpar, so what do I know? And did I say that Defender were the best? Or did I say one of the best? Should all your team be entirely composed of arc dodger? What if you don't feel like fielding an arc-dodger ship? Are we screwed then and left with either a Tie swarm or a turret?

Some ships are more common in elimination rounds than they were before the cut. Defenders are not among that group.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/charts

Looking at the faction ship count table:

Defender: 2.01%

Lambda Shuttle: 2.52%

Firespray: 2.52%

Tie Bomber: 1.01%

Aggressor: 1.99%

Y-Wing: 1.93%

Would you say that all those ships needs a fix or a boost to be playable? What offend me most is the 10.71% of the B-Wing.... but that's for another story.

But the defender isn't an arc dodger, so why does it matter that it can't arc dodge like an interceptor?

It matters that it can't arc dodge or stack tokens because it has subpar jousting stats that need to be overcome. If you're playing the jousting game, it's all about the numbers. The Defender turns into a one trick pony (ok, maybe two if you count the control cannons) when it comes to trying to get value above it's predicted jousting stats. If a Defender can't get it done with white K-turns it doesn't have a lot going for it.

didn't see this have to reply

there's a very simple simple way to overcome this "all about numbers" nonsense, and that's just take control of the joust. If the Defender shoots and the target does not, jousting values mean exactly nothing

this is incredibly easy to do when you have the white 4k, even more easy if you have a control cannon. Titled Y-wings are also very capable of completely invalidating jousting values with ion cannon turrets (plus potential TL off of R4) and a 4k of their own.

Yes, and when a Defender gets put into a position that it can't use that K-turn it struggles.

Some ships are more common in elimination rounds than they were before the cut. Defenders are not among that group.http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/charts

Looking at the faction ship count table:

Defender: 2.01%

Lambda Shuttle: 2.52%

Firespray: 2.52%

Tie Bomber: 1.01%

Aggressor: 1.99%

Y-Wing: 1.93%

Would you say that all those ships needs a fix or a boost to be playable? What offend me most is the 10.71% of the B-Wing.... but that's for another story.

Newer ships and recently upgraded ones don't really need help just yet. I'm more concerned about ships that clearly lowered the chances of their players making the cut. Y's are boss now. Aggressors are too new. Bombers, shuttles and defenders could all use some love.

But the defender isn't an arc dodger, so why does it matter that it can't arc dodge like an interceptor?

It matters that it can't arc dodge or stack tokens because it has subpar jousting stats that need to be overcome. If you're playing the jousting game, it's all about the numbers. The Defender turns into a one trick pony (ok, maybe two if you count the control cannons) when it comes to trying to get value above it's predicted jousting stats. If a Defender can't get it done with white K-turns it doesn't have a lot going for it.

didn't see this have to reply

there's a very simple simple way to overcome this "all about numbers" nonsense, and that's just take control of the joust. If the Defender shoots and the target does not, jousting values mean exactly nothing

this is incredibly easy to do when you have the white 4k, even more easy if you have a control cannon. Titled Y-wings are also very capable of completely invalidating jousting values with ion cannon turrets (plus potential TL off of R4) and a 4k of their own.

Yes, and when a Defender gets put into a position that it can't use that K-turn it struggles.

not necessarily

if it repeatedly gets put into a position that it can't use that K-turn, it may struggle

lord knows I don't need k-turns to chase after and beat turrets into the ground and their combined 6 health + 3 agility means they can stick around for a turn or two of fire (varying of course on the nature of said "fire")

the white k is the defender's signature strength, followed closely by the well rounded stats, fast dial, solid action bar, and cannon slot. Learning how to exploit these strengths, particularly the signature four k, is part of learning how to fly the defender effectively.

I don't want to claim this bull "oh, no good player would ever not let his defender nto k-turn" blahblahblah because that's ultimately going to come down to a game by game basis, all I will say is that it is up to both players to keep this capability in mind and work around it.

I.e, it's similar to saying "if soontir can't preform actions, he struggles" or "if a B-wing gets ioned, it struggles." All ships have weaknesses and strengths, and they will not perform well (weird dice pending) when the gameplay situations manage to emphasize the former over the later.

Now this would be a point to make if the white 4k was an especially difficult maneuver to pull off, but it really isn't. Going in a straight line leaves the least potential for error whereas a weird bank or turn can put you in places you could not properly visualize, the low PS on the Delta makes it so you very rarely get blocked, ******* up doesn't stress the defender as it would a normal ship, and there's even the barrel-roll to course correct and set-up a white 4k on the following turn (love barrel-rolls, they're incredible for altering the positioning on Defenders especially because the Deltas tend to deploy first).

It's on the Defender player to practice not ******* it up, and on the opponent to ensure that it is exploited to as little of a degree as possible.

The only thing I can see the Defender needing besides more pilots is the boost action. It would be nice if an Imperial Aces pack would give the Defender the boost action through a title for 0 cost. Maybe as a down side of a free boost would be to remove the missile slot. It should already have it based on how fast the ship is. This would also allow it to have Auto Thrusters and the high cost of the ship would make more sense then.

Some ships are more common in elimination rounds than they were before the cut. Defenders are not among that group.http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/charts

Looking at the faction ship count table:

Defender: 2.01%

Lambda Shuttle: 2.52%

Firespray: 2.52%

Tie Bomber: 1.01%

Aggressor: 1.99%

Y-Wing: 1.93%

Would you say that all those ships needs a fix or a boost to be playable? What offend me most is the 10.71% of the B-Wing.... but that's for another story.

Newer ships and recently upgraded ones don't really need help just yet. I'm more concerned about ships that clearly lowered the chances of their players making the cut. Y's are boss now. Aggressors are too new. Bombers, shuttles and defenders could all use some love.

What about the Firespray? the X-Wing has 5.8%, does it mean that it doesn't need any help after all? Tie Fighter has 16.12%, would you say that it is too good for the game, that it is much better than a Interceptor with his 5.1%.