But those fat turrets are the prime defender targets. If they were ever going to break out that was the time.

Not really. Defenders slot in very favorably against fat turrets, but they aren't the fat turret's natural enemy (those are high jousting value stats per cost ships, such as the b-wing, the b-wing, the b-wing, the b-wing, and the headhunter...coincidence?)

With the added utility of control (or the rediscovery, I should say) taking down phantoms, the combination of jousting b-wings with stress should've thrived in wave 5 (panic attack)

Defenders, true to their stat-line, are more all around good against everything minus hyper accurate HLCs (ow). From experience on both sdies of the equation, I can say they don't actually care about stress lists. B-wings ******* hate defenders, who can trololo 4k all day even while stressed and have absolutely no problem stressing or ionizing 1 agility ships even without dice modifications.

They don't see competitive play. That's not because people just haven't figured them out.

Actually they do, and perform well for their limited showing. They're just not as present and part of the usual copy-paste meta lists.

http://xwing.macker.co/ship.php?s=14&d=90&f=0

If you take the time to go on that site and look at the performance of the top ranked build including Rexler or Vessery, you'll realise that they placed 1st and 2nd a lot of time. I myself placed first with a build including Vessery and I would feel very confident to take the same build to the Regional and fare well (for my limited skills that is).

I'm not sure how to get any useful data out of that site. What I'm seeing over at the List Juggler site is that lists containing a Defender have made the top 4, in Store Championships that cut to championship rounds, a total of 9 times. All but two of those lists had the Defender escorting a VT-49. Only 2 of those were 1st place.

That's not exactly a great showing.

The problem with tournament results is we only get the top four. Falcons tend to make the top but how many Falcons make the bottom? How much of the Falcon's success is because it's good and how much is because there are more Falcons taking part?

Defenders are rare, so when a Defender wins that says a lot.

They don't see competitive play. That's not because people just haven't figured them out.

Actually they do, and perform well for their limited showing. They're just not as present and part of the usual copy-paste meta lists.

http://xwing.macker.co/ship.php?s=14&d=90&f=0

If you take the time to go on that site and look at the performance of the top ranked build including Rexler or Vessery, you'll realise that they placed 1st and 2nd a lot of time. I myself placed first with a build including Vessery and I would feel very confident to take the same build to the Regional and fare well (for my limited skills that is).

I'm not sure how to get any useful data out of that site. What I'm seeing over at the List Juggler site is that lists containing a Defender have made the top 4, in Store Championships that cut to championship rounds, a total of 9 times. All but two of those lists had the Defender escorting a VT-49. Only 2 of those were 1st place.

That's not exactly a great showing.

2015-03-14: Jax+RGP+Rexler took 2nd; attendance 33

2015-02-28: Rexler+Vessery took 2nd; attendance 14

2015-02-15: Rexler+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 30

2015-03-07: Rexler+Chiraneau took 2nd; attendance 14

2015-02-15: Rexler+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 24

2015-02-07: Rexler+Chiraneau took 2nd; attendance 26

2015-03-07: Rexler+Kenkirk took 1st: attendance 10

2015-03-07: Vessery+Echo+OMG took 1st; attendance 15

2015-02-08: Vessery+Soontir+OMG took 1st; attendance 10

2015-03-07: Vessery+Soontir+OMG took 2nd; attendance 10

2015-01-11: Vessery+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 17

2015-02-07: Vessery+Kenkirk took 2nd; attendance 26

2015-01-25: Delta+OMG+Whisper took 1st; attendance 10

I say that it is not that bad.

As for discrediting the ship performance because he's with a Decimator, should we also dismiss all the Phantom showing when paired with a Decimator?

The Defender is kind of the last gasp of FFG making a ship/upgrade with actual drawbacks. It still shouldn't cost so much, but even if it costed less there would still be limitations to playing one. Now you can have an HLC turret that can ignore asteroids and barrel roll on its large base without equipping Expert Handling. Pre-Tie Phantom, crap like that wouldn't fly.

Why oh why would you use the Outrider as your example for that? That donut hole is murder, which is why it's not that common in tournaments.

Not really with large ship barrel roll and boost.

What can a defender do that no other ship can do? Barrel after a K. That's it...

K-turn without having to green afterwards, K-turn and retain action economy and present the constant threat of the white K even if it doesn't take it.

If you can't see the psychological effect the white K turn has then I can understand you not seeing the value in the TIE defender.

Defenders have terrible action economy, so retaining it doesn't really do much. And every white move you can do out of the K is green for someone else. The base problem with the defender is that their dials and pilot abilities virtually guarantee that they are depending on rolling unmodified red or green dice.

I would like to know which ship exactly has all bank, straight 2 to 5, hard 3 and, most importantly, a 4 k-turn; green. I'm very curious on this one.

Also, you start by saying that keeping your action doesn't really do much for them but then say that they depend on rolling unmodified rolls? I'm not sure I'm following you here. Isn't focus an action that you can use to modify your rolls?

When Soontir and whisper shoot they usually are able to modify their dice. When they defend, they can usually modify the dice for the first couple attacks. A defender, at best, can modify once without an ept or a focus donation.

The same is true for many other top-end named pilots. Rexlar and Vessery just have to bake their green dice.

Vessery always have a free TL he can use. He can use his focus however he sees fit, either to imporve his attack yet again or keep it for defense. Two actions per turn, always a modified attack, no stress to clear the turn after.

Humans tend to take the easy path over the hard one, if you know list x performs well consistently then you take it to maximize your chances.

If someone were to win big with a defender in the list you'd suddenly see them everywhere.

The problem with tournament results is we only get the top four. Falcons tend to make the top but how many Falcons make the bottom? How much of the Falcon's success is because it's good and how much is because there are more Falcons taking part?

Defenders are rare, so when a Defender wins that says a lot.

I've seen one defender this year at tournaments. The player did not make the cut at store champs. At the most recent tourney the same player ran Fel, Whisper and doom(none of which are his normal ships). He won.

They don't see competitive play. That's not because people just haven't figured them out.

Actually they do, and perform well for their limited showing. They're just not as present and part of the usual copy-paste meta lists.

http://xwing.macker.co/ship.php?s=14&d=90&f=0

If you take the time to go on that site and look at the performance of the top ranked build including Rexler or Vessery, you'll realise that they placed 1st and 2nd a lot of time. I myself placed first with a build including Vessery and I would feel very confident to take the same build to the Regional and fare well (for my limited skills that is).

I'm not sure how to get any useful data out of that site. What I'm seeing over at the List Juggler site is that lists containing a Defender have made the top 4, in Store Championships that cut to championship rounds, a total of 9 times. All but two of those lists had the Defender escorting a VT-49. Only 2 of those were 1st place.

That's not exactly a great showing.

2015-03-14: Jax+RGP+Rexler took 2nd; attendance 33

2015-02-28: Rexler+Vessery took 2nd; attendance 14

2015-02-15: Rexler+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 30

2015-03-07: Rexler+Chiraneau took 2nd; attendance 14

2015-02-15: Rexler+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 24

2015-02-07: Rexler+Chiraneau took 2nd; attendance 26

2015-03-07: Rexler+Kenkirk took 1st: attendance 10

2015-03-07: Vessery+Echo+OMG took 1st; attendance 15

2015-02-08: Vessery+Soontir+OMG took 1st; attendance 10

2015-03-07: Vessery+Soontir+OMG took 2nd; attendance 10

2015-01-11: Vessery+Chiraneau took 1st; attendance 17

2015-02-07: Vessery+Kenkirk took 2nd; attendance 26

2015-01-25: Delta+OMG+Whisper took 1st; attendance 10

I say that it is not that bad.

As for discrediting the ship performance because he's with a Decimator, should we also dismiss all the Phantom showing when paired with a Decimator?

Those results look similar to what I got, with the exception that some of the smaller tournaments would have been filtered out of my results.

I don't know that the Decimator was the ship that showed up in the largest amount of Top 4 lists but it would not surprise me if it did. The results show that you can run **** near anything to fill out the remaining 40ish points in a Decimator list and be competitive.

I think things would be very different if they gave the Phantom 3 red dice and the Defender 4. I would like that game much better.

I couldn't agree more. The balance in firepower for wave 4 seem to have shifted too much to the Phantom. But, sadly they almost cant and certainly wont change it.

Vessery has a TL if you bring someone else with a TL and they haven't died or spent it yet. Soontir has 2 focus and an evade and you probably don't have arc on him anyways. Whisper has a focus and an evade and you almost certainly don't have arc. I your experience tells you that Vessery and Rexlar are as hard to kill as other closers then someone is using those other closers wrong.

Here we go with the using them wrong argument. You don't fly them like you would fly Soontir or Whsiper. But a Defender is one of the best ship to have in a end game, you can't shake them off. If Soontir is stress, something that happens quite often I guess, you know where he won,t be pointing at next round. With a Defender, you just can't. Technically speaking, if nobody has an arc on Soontir, there is very high chances that he won't have 2 focus and an evade, since he will have barrel rolled and boosted out of the way. He will probably have a focus for offense, that's if he kept his line of sight while dodging arc. Good but not great.

Now, if you bring Vessery on the table, I sincerely hope so that you also brought some ships that can TL for him. If not, that's not the ship fault but the list design. When I play Vessery, I love to pair him with 2 Scimitars. They act as scout for the TLs and blockers, they can also take a beating so they are not that easy to bring down. If my opponent choose to target them first, congratulation! he just fell for the trap. While he concentrate on the little buggers, I can shoot him with a 3-4 attack dice with F+TL every round. If he decide to go for Vessery, I keep my focus for defense. But no matter what, as long as I have at least a bomber in play, I will always be able to shoot with a TL, stress or not. Now, a Bomber with only 1 or 2 health can be suprisingly fast.

Different beast for different task.

Some ships are more common in elimination rounds than they were before the cut. Defenders are not among that group.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/charts

They already added flechette cannons and feedback arrays to help counter phantoms, these in conjunction with ion turrets and other attacks you have loads of options to get past it's four agility and movement options.

Ffg can't reduce its firepower but they've increased the options to take it out to balance things.

Ah, I see, so defenders are just waiting for a messiah that will lead them to the promised land of Topfour.

Who wants to be the chosen one? Any volunteers...?

Vessery has a TL if you bring someone else with a TL and they haven't died or spent it yet. Soontir has 2 focus and an evade and you probably don't have arc on him anyways. Whisper has a focus and an evade and you almost certainly don't have arc. I your experience tells you that Vessery and Rexlar are as hard to kill as other closers then someone is using those other closers wrong.

Here we go with the using them wrong argument. You don't fly them like you would fly Soontir or Whsiper. But a Defender is one of the best ship to have in a end game, you can't shake them off. If Soontir is stress, something that happens quite often I guess, you know where he won,t be pointing at next round. With a Defender, you just can't. Technically speaking, if nobody has an arc on Soontir, there is very high chances that he won't have 2 focus and an evade, since he will have barrel rolled and boosted out of the way. He will probably have a focus for offense, that's if he kept his line of sight while dodging arc. Good but not great.

Now, if you bring Vessery on the table, I sincerely hope so that you also brought some ships that can TL for him. If not, that's not the ship fault but the list design. When I play Vessery, I love to pair him with 2 Scimitars. They act as scout for the TLs and blockers, they can also take a beating so they are not that easy to bring down. If my opponent choose to target them first, congratulation! he just fell for the trap. While he concentrate on the little buggers, I can shoot him with a 3-4 attack dice with F+TL every round. If he decide to go for Vessery, I keep my focus for defense. But no matter what, as long as I have at least a bomber in play, I will always be able to shoot with a TL, stress or not. Now, a Bomber with only 1 or 2 health can be suprisingly fast.

Different beast for different task.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but if your opponents "can't shake" a TIE defender then they are pretty subpar. A defender in the late game will lose to every common closer. Ps10 Rexlar might have a chance at Whisper, but any other closer or any other defender and it's probably GG. Echoing other people's comments above I don't really see how you can play regularly and think the defender compares to the other things you can get for the price.

They already added flechette cannons and feedback arrays to help counter phantoms, these in conjunction with ion turrets and other attacks you have loads of options to get past it's four agility and movement options.

Ffg can't reduce its firepower but they've increased the options to take it out to balance things.

I haven't read any of the past 10 pages, but the answer is fairly obvious to me: the Defender is built completely @$$ backwards. You get a white K-turn, but you pay for it with normal turns being red. It throws off the whole jousting paradigm, and it's not unlike playing against a lefty in any number of sports. That's not to say it's bad, just that most people aren't willing to put in the effort to make it playable, let alone meta defining.

Vessery has a TL if you bring someone else with a TL and they haven't died or spent it yet. Soontir has 2 focus and an evade and you probably don't have arc on him anyways. Whisper has a focus and an evade and you almost certainly don't have arc. I your experience tells you that Vessery and Rexlar are as hard to kill as other closers then someone is using those other closers wrong.

Here we go with the using them wrong argument. You don't fly them like you would fly Soontir or Whsiper. But a Defender is one of the best ship to have in a end game, you can't shake them off. If Soontir is stress, something that happens quite often I guess, you know where he won,t be pointing at next round. With a Defender, you just can't. Technically speaking, if nobody has an arc on Soontir, there is very high chances that he won't have 2 focus and an evade, since he will have barrel rolled and boosted out of the way. He will probably have a focus for offense, that's if he kept his line of sight while dodging arc. Good but not great.

Now, if you bring Vessery on the table, I sincerely hope so that you also brought some ships that can TL for him. If not, that's not the ship fault but the list design. When I play Vessery, I love to pair him with 2 Scimitars. They act as scout for the TLs and blockers, they can also take a beating so they are not that easy to bring down. If my opponent choose to target them first, congratulation! he just fell for the trap. While he concentrate on the little buggers, I can shoot him with a 3-4 attack dice with F+TL every round. If he decide to go for Vessery, I keep my focus for defense. But no matter what, as long as I have at least a bomber in play, I will always be able to shoot with a TL, stress or not. Now, a Bomber with only 1 or 2 health can be suprisingly fast.

Different beast for different task.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but if your opponents "can't shake" a TIE defender then they are pretty subpar. A defender in the late game will lose to every common closer. Ps10 Rexlar might have a chance at Whisper, but any other closer or any other defender and it's probably GG. Echoing other people's comments above I don't really see how you can play regularly and think the defender compares to the other things you can get for the price.

I don't pretend to understand why you have such a hatred towards defenders, but it's really hilarious to me when you keep comparing it to ships that don't fit the same role. Would you compare Soontir to a doom shuttle? I should hope not, they fly differently and serve different roles.

If the defender is so weak, and interceptor like Soontir are so much better, why was buffing interceptors (autothrusters) more important than something to help defenders?

I'm not trying to be rude here, but I can't fathom who you are playing against. If they can't get an interceptor or a whisper ever in their arc, I would consider them subpar.

I don't pretend to understand why you have such a hatred towards defenders, but it's really hilarious to me when you keep comparing it to ships that don't fit the same role. Would you compare Soontir to a doom shuttle? I should hope not, they fly differently and serve different roles.

If the defender is so weak, and interceptor like Soontir are so much better, why was buffing interceptors (autothrusters) more important than something to help defenders?

Guys like Soontir, Whisper, Rexlar, and Vader all fit the same role in lists, so it makes sense to compare them. They are high cost aces that should be able to close the deal for you once it gets to the end game. Currently, Vader and Rexlar have some challenges in that department.

Autothrusters was an important buff for Interceptors because turrets were a hard counter to squishy arc dodgers that weren't so dominate as to require a hard counter.

Whisper and Soontir get to move their ships several ship lengths after or before a largely open dial. A defender gets to barrel roll from a limited dial. I'm comparing them to every competitive ship you can get for the same cost, especially closers because that's how they are being sold here.

Whisper and Soontir get to move their ships several ship lengths after or before a largely open dial. A defender gets to barrel roll from a limited dial. I'm comparing them to every competitive ship you can get for the same cost, especially closers because that's how they are being sold here.

Whisper isn't that great as a closer, especially vs a Defender. Whisper can't turn around easily unless you don't mind being uncloaked with a stress. A Defender can turn around all day long. Soontir is trickier, but if you can keep him out of knife-fight range, it's a pretty even fight unless the Defender has an Ion.

A lot of it comes down to how each ship is kitted out. Personally though, I feel that 1 on 1 comparisons are pretty pointless, since you fly with a squad instead of a single ship.

But the defender isn't an arc dodger, so why does it matter that it can't arc dodge like an interceptor?

If the defender is so weak, and interceptor like Soontir are so much better, why was buffing interceptors (autothrusters) more important than something to help defenders?

Ehhhh...devil's advocate time (as in, I somewhat agree with the OP that the TIE Defender is a but underrated)...BUT...

...the TIE Interceptor is a wave 2 release, while the TIE Defender is a wave 4 release.

And we only just...*JUST*...got the fix to rebalance TIE Interceptor vs its other wave 2 release (the turreted Falcon). Assuming FFG lets an issue bake to really ensure that it's a problem...we are still at *least* two waves away from a fix for the TIE Defender.

So I wouldn't read too much into the Interceptor being issued a fix in this last wave while the Defender hasn't been. FFG seems to be very cautious about such things, which - honestly - I *seriously* appreciate.

Ah, I see, so defenders are just waiting for a messiah that will lead them to the promised land of Topfour.

Who wants to be the chosen one? Any volunteers...?

The Defender has had a number of staunch supporters since it dropped. If it isn't making waves in the meta it isn't for lack of trying.

If the defender is so weak, and interceptor like Soontir are so much better, why was buffing interceptors (autothrusters) more important than something to help defenders?

Ehhhh...devil's advocate time (as in, I somewhat agree with the OP that the TIE Defender is a but underrated)...BUT...

...the TIE Interceptor is a wave 2 release, while the TIE Defender is a wave 4 release.

And we only just...*JUST*...got the fix to rebalance TIE Interceptor vs its other wave 2 release (the turreted Falcon). Assuming FFG lets an issue bake to really ensure that it's a problem...we are still at *least* two waves away from a fix for the TIE Defender.

So I wouldn't read too much into the Interceptor being issued a fix in this last wave while the Defender hasn't been. FFG seems to be very cautious about such things, which - honestly - I *seriously* appreciate.

The TIE Advanced is a Wave 1 ship and we are still waiting for the fix for that.