Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

In fact, I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

In fact, I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Slightly easier, actually, because of only needing 1 kill shot vs 2.

I would reduce its point cost by 5. That is for named and generic pilots each...!

Beyond that its a fun ship to fly.

And I would REALLY like to see Paul Heaver take the WC-Title home with this one this year, just to prove it can work with someone good behind the stick...!

The Defender is kind of the last gasp of FFG making a ship/upgrade with actual drawbacks. It still shouldn't cost so much, but even if it costed less there would still be limitations to playing one. Now you can have an HLC turret that can ignore asteroids and barrel roll on its large base without equipping Expert Handling. Pre-Tie Phantom, crap like that wouldn't fly.

Why oh why would you use the Outrider as your example for that? That donut hole is murder, which is why it's not that common in tournaments.

Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

In fact, I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Slightly easier, actually, because of only needing 1 kill shot vs 2.

only in terms of tossing dice at it

its strange maneuverability makes it impossible to get such a straight comparison to stick

The Defender is one of my favorite ships to play but it needs something else to make it to the top tier of competitve play. I don't think that the new cannons, Fleet Officer, or the fix to the Advanced will be what pushes it over the top but they are all steps in the right direction.

It's just too **** bad that the Defender didn't get the Systems slot instead of the Phantom.

Got to admit, the phantom doesn't need it. The Crew slot was good enough.

I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Slightly easier, actually, because of only needing 1 kill shot vs 2.

only in terms of tossing dice at it

its strange maneuverability makes it impossible to get such a straight comparison to stick

It requires a minimum of four hits to destroy two TIE Fighters.

It requires a minimum of five hits to destroy one TIE Defender.

It requires a minimum of one hit to seriously cripple a single TIE Fighter.

It requires a minimum of four hits to seriously cripple a TIE Defender.

But of course, just like the dial, player handling and the white Kturn, the jousting stats don't take into account the potential negative effects of critical hits. This in an environment which now features Mangler Cannons and Calculation, too.

thismessagehasbeenbroughtoyoubyliesdanliesandstatisticsincorporated

the jousting stats don't take into account the potential negative effects of critical hits.

You might wish to read up on the topic, rather than spreading misinformation...

I think the defender is a great ship, and needs no fixes, but if I were to propose a fix, it would a modification:

Ion Gun Thingy - 0

When attacking, if you hit you may choose to cancel all dice then deal 1 damage and assign 1 ion token to the defender instead.

Solid idea.

FCS Defender would be quite lovely

The Defender is kind of the last gasp of FFG making a ship/upgrade with actual drawbacks. It still shouldn't cost so much, but even if it costed less there would still be limitations to playing one. Now you can have an HLC turret that can ignore asteroids and barrel roll on its large base without equipping Expert Handling. Pre-Tie Phantom, crap like that wouldn't fly.

Why oh why would you use the Outrider as your example for that? That donut hole is murder, which is why it's not that common in tournaments.

Not common in tournaments? There were 10+ in the 50 or so SC lists where I have played recently.

Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

In fact, I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Slightly easier, actually, because of only needing 1 kill shot vs 2.

only in terms of tossing dice at it

its strange maneuverability makes it impossible to get such a straight comparison to stick

It doesn't have "strange maneuverability". It has terrible maneuverability. They gave it great baseline stats and a bad dial. That's how they designed it.

They don't see competitive play. That's not because people just haven't figured them out.

Actually they do, and perform well for their limited showing. They're just not as present and part of the usual copy-paste meta lists.

http://xwing.macker.co/ship.php?s=14&d=90&f=0

If you take the time to go on that site and look at the performance of the top ranked build including Rexler or Vessery, you'll realise that they placed 1st and 2nd a lot of time. I myself placed first with a build including Vessery and I would feel very confident to take the same build to the Regional and fare well (for my limited skills that is).

When talking about competitive ship or not, there is something to keep in mind. A lot of people won't bother to try to find a list of their own and will just look at what's the new hot build to play. Instead of exploring all the possibilities the game has to offer and find one thing that fits, they'll check the forum, listen to some podcasts and run a list that most people say is the best or easy enough to use without needing a lot of game to really feel it. Since the Tie Defender is a victim of mathwing, a lot of players just won't bother with it; they'll lose with it and then spread the words that the Tie Defender is indeed overcost. This ship is not an easy mode that grant automatic result: the stats, while good, is not enough for the price. Where it shines or fails is how it flies. If you fly it like any other craft, you won't get good enough result for what you pay for. But if you dedicate enough time, you'll find out that there is some situation where the Defender is the best ship for the job. Does it means that I would automatically include a Defender in every imperial list I make? Of course not. It's all about synergy and what role I expect from each ship in my lists. But they work, and a lot of players have already proven it.

It is bad for your style of flying, yes. It doesn't mean others can't adapt to it's uniqueness.

Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

In fact, I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Slightly easier, actually, because of only needing 1 kill shot vs 2.

only in terms of tossing dice at it

its strange maneuverability makes it impossible to get such a straight comparison to stick

It doesn't have "strange maneuverability". It has terrible maneuverability. They gave it great baseline stats and a bad dial. That's how they designed it.

how?

apart from the 2 red turns, the dial is very open and the post 4k barrel-roll is unique across the entirety of the X-wing line

the "badness" of the dial as presented in these posts is incredibly exaggerated

I would like to know which ship exactly has all bank, straight 2 to 5, hard 3 and, most importantly, a 4 k-turn; green. I'm very curious on this one.

Also, you start by saying that keeping your action doesn't really do much for them but then say that they depend on rolling unmodified rolls? I'm not sure I'm following you here. Isn't focus an action that you can use to modify your rolls?

I am not sure why the Defender does not work for me.

The dial sure is not overly kind but all things considered I think it simply costs too much for what it does.

And perhaps unrelated; i have not seen a a single Defender in any of the tournaments I visited thus far.

Coincidence? I think not.

But feel free to prove me wrong. Take it to a tournament, win it and post the report.

I'd *love* to see a working list with Defenders. I got two of em.

The Defender is kind of the last gasp of FFG making a ship/upgrade with actual drawbacks. It still shouldn't cost so much, but even if it costed less there would still be limitations to playing one. Now you can have an HLC turret that can ignore asteroids and barrel roll on its large base without equipping Expert Handling. Pre-Tie Phantom, crap like that wouldn't fly.

Why oh why would you use the Outrider as your example for that? That donut hole is murder, which is why it's not that common in tournaments.

Not common in tournaments? There were 10+ in the 50 or so SC lists where I have played recently.

Anecdotal. How common are they in Juggler's data on the whole world?

Also remember that we're only talking HLC here.

I am not sure why the Defender does not work for me.

The dial sure is not overly kind but all things considered I think it simply costs too much for what it does.

And perhaps unrelated; i have not seen a a single Defender in any of the tournaments I visited thus far.

Coincidence? I think not.

But feel free to prove me wrong. Take it to a tournament, win it and post the report.

I'd *love* to see a working list with Defenders. I got two of em.

http://xwing.macker.co/ship.php?s=14&d=90&f=0

Go have some fun. Pick one of the pilot, then click on Top ranked squad and see how it fared in recent tournaments.

I am not sure why the Defender does not work for me.

The dial sure is not overly kind but all things considered I think it simply costs too much for what it does.

And perhaps unrelated; i have not seen a a single Defender in any of the tournaments I visited thus far.

Coincidence? I think not.

But feel free to prove me wrong. Take it to a tournament, win it and post the report.

I'd *love* to see a working list with Defenders. I got two of em.

it is coincidence

for the space of the entirety of wave 5, we've had 85% attendance rates with at least one fat turret, and 50% with two to every ******* tournament held in the local area including the store championship. If that implies that all ships that isn't a large based turret was not viable, then I don't want to live on this planet anymore

course, now that Wave 6 is out, I've like...2 per tournament. Did auto-thrusters instantly make them be not competitively viable?

Humans are whimsical creatures, don't let their preferences way you All their competitive presence says is that people like playing with their new toys

Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

In fact, I think it's almost exactly like killing two TIE fighters (but less susceptible to crits).

Slightly easier, actually, because of only needing 1 kill shot vs 2.

only in terms of tossing dice at it

its strange maneuverability makes it impossible to get such a straight comparison to stick

It doesn't have "strange maneuverability". It has terrible maneuverability. They gave it great baseline stats and a bad dial. That's how they designed it.

how?

apart from the 2 red turns, the dial is very open and the post 4k barrel-roll is unique across the entirety of the X-wing line

the "badness" of the dial as presented in these posts is incredibly exaggerated

How many ships in the game have no green banks? The white k is nice, but it is more than balanced by the rest of that awfulness. Especially in the stress meta.

But those fat turrets are the prime defender targets. If they were ever going to break out that was the time.

What can a defender do that no other ship can do? Barrel after a K. That's it...

K-turn without having to green afterwards, K-turn and retain action economy and present the constant threat of the white K even if it doesn't take it.

If you can't see the psychological effect the white K turn has then I can understand you not seeing the value in the TIE defender.

Defenders have terrible action economy, so retaining it doesn't really do much. And every white move you can do out of the K is green for someone else. The base problem with the defender is that their dials and pilot abilities virtually guarantee that they are depending on rolling unmodified red or green dice.

I would like to know which ship exactly has all bank, straight 2 to 5, hard 3 and, most importantly, a 4 k-turn; green. I'm very curious on this one.

Also, you start by saying that keeping your action doesn't really do much for them but then say that they depend on rolling unmodified rolls? I'm not sure I'm following you here. Isn't focus an action that you can use to modify your rolls?

The same is true for many other top-end named pilots. Rexlar and Vessery just have to bake their green dice.

What can a defender do that no other ship can do? Barrel after a K. That's it...

K-turn without having to green afterwards, K-turn and retain action economy and present the constant threat of the white K even if it doesn't take it.

If you can't see the psychological effect the white K turn has then I can understand you not seeing the value in the TIE defender.

Defenders have terrible action economy, so retaining it doesn't really do much. And every white move you can do out of the K is green for someone else. The base problem with the defender is that their dials and pilot abilities virtually guarantee that they are depending on rolling unmodified red or green dice.

I would like to know which ship exactly has all bank, straight 2 to 5, hard 3 and, most importantly, a 4 k-turn; green. I'm very curious on this one.

Also, you start by saying that keeping your action doesn't really do much for them but then say that they depend on rolling unmodified rolls? I'm not sure I'm following you here. Isn't focus an action that you can use to modify your rolls?

When Soontir and whisper shoot they usually are able to modify their dice. When they defend, they can usually modify the dice for the first couple attacks. A defender, at best, can modify once without an ept or a focus donation.

The same is true for many other top-end named pilots. Rexlar and Vessery just have to bake their green dice.

Vessery always have a free TL he can use. He can use his focus however he sees fit, either to imporve his attack yet again or keep it for defense. Two actions per turn, always a modified attack, no stress to clear the turn after.