I can't claim it's the super awesome ship of killy doom that people want it be.

But I have never been disappointed with it. Rex always seems to carry more than his weight, take loads of punishment and rip stuff up.

That said, I've never took the genetics. Really doesn't seem any point.

You should try the Jonas brothers list it's got frightening accurate firepower and can soak a lot of damage.

I've only flown Jonas brothers as half of my team epic game because the 100 point list doesn't really fit my playstyle (I like having one super awesome ace in every list)

They basically did all the work out of our combined 400 points

Double HLC re-rolls + focus shots are just stupid

The dial + cannon costs you 37 points at ps1. That's Fel plus extra. On Rexlar you're starting at 45 lol. For 45 points you can get every small-base ship in the game loaded so hard that it'll dust Rexlar without even breaking a sweat. I don't care how many times barrel rolls and K's. Soontir/Whisper/Corran/any other small base ship that you spend that much on will still dance on Rex's grave.

Being unique isn't enough. You've got to be able to reliably land hits and reliably not take hits. He is worse at that than every other way that I could spend 45 points. Ps10 to hunt phantoms is an option, but his dial makes it fairly easy to get out of his arc unless he's pulling reds and rolling all unmodified.

Can you think of a list with a defender that wouldn't be improved by subbing in a closer? I can't.

Delta's with flechette's? That's not going to be competitive. If someone gets their list rocked by you spending over 60 points to do 2 damage(to two different ships) and tossing 1 stress on an unstressed target then I daresay they aren't trying very hard. I'm sure it can win some games, but you're starting downhill. I can get whisper plus a doom shuttle for about the same price.

I've only flown Jonas brothers as half of my team epic game because the 100 point list doesn't really fit my playstyle (I like having one super awesome ace in every list)

They basically did all the work out of our combined 400 points

Double HLC re-rolls + focus shots are just stupid

Yea the damage is really nice. But competent arc dodgers kind of eat it alive. It's great fun. It's just not that good.

The dial + cannon costs you 37 points at ps1. That's Fel plus extra. On Rexlar you're starting at 45 lol. For 45 points you can get every small-base ship in the game loaded so hard that it'll dust Rexlar without even breaking a sweat. I don't care how many times barrel rolls and K's. Soontir/Whisper/Corran/any other small base ship that you spend that much on will still dance on Rex's grave.

Being unique isn't enough. You've got to be able to reliably land hits and reliably not take hits. He is worse at that than every other way that I could spend 45 points. Ps10 to hunt phantoms is an option, but his dial makes it fairly easy to get out of his arc unless he's pulling reds and rolling all unmodified.

Can you think of a list with a defender that wouldn't be improved by subbing in a closer? I can't.

Delta's with flechette's? That's not going to be competitive. If someone gets their list rocked by you spending over 60 points to do 2 damage(to two different ships) and tossing 1 stress on an unstressed target then I daresay they aren't trying very hard. I'm sure it can win some games, but you're starting downhill. I can get whisper plus a doom shuttle for about the same price.

You find me a soontir fell with 6 health and an HLC for 37 points and then sure, he'll always be better than defenders

I do wish I had your clairvoyance, though. God knows I wouldn't have to spend so much time playing X-wing if I could just look at a new build at first glance, look past the many mangled corpses of all the aggressors its steamrolled through, and declared it uncompetitive

Maybe you forgot to factor in the fact that you don't need to use flechettes exclusively. Defenders can't equip outrider, you know

Here's how you use flechette cannons:

1.) determine whether or not stress will prevent the enemy from shooting you next turn (or would at least force him into a poor position regarding firing arcs or a lack of action) or if the opponent is at range 3 and has one health remaining

2.) fire flechette

now whisper and doom shuttle are great ships, but considering that they and the defenders don't share a single strength or weakness I'm willing to call the comparison completely pointless

Further on the mathematical models, you can quantify combat very reliably, but the rest of the game involves human minds. And nothing screws up a model more than contact with those.

Welcome to...

X-WING - The Miniatures Game: MajorJuggalo Edition

You will need:

• 2 x X-Wing The Miniatures Game Miniatures (with pilot cards)
• a range ruler
• a calculator

How to play:

• set ships up at exactly range two, facing each other
• do not move
• choose the focus action
• in pilot skill order, use the calculator to determine the average number of damaged caused using red dice plus focus only, then use calculator to determine average number of damage avoided using green dice and focus only
• compare results, deal damage dealt
• if the defender is still alive, reverse and repeat process
• continue until one player's ship is destroyed, or both players give/throw up
• whatever the result, the player with the TIE Fighter wins

lets not drag poor juggler into this

the man does good work and acknowledges the limitations of his model regarding the actual outcome of games

I do agree that setting the results of games and the viability of ships based on jousting value alone is incredibly silly and completely missing the point of the game. We might as well not play if that were the case (but, on the plus side, Fat Han would be a horrible piece of **** instead of a meta threat)

I've only flown Jonas brothers as half of my team epic game because the 100 point list doesn't really fit my playstyle (I like having one super awesome ace in every list)

They basically did all the work out of our combined 400 points

Double HLC re-rolls + focus shots are just stupid

Yea the damage is really nice. But competent arc dodgers kind of eat it alive. It's great fun. It's just not that good.

Competency isn't really an argument. A competent Defender pilot won't get arc-dodged. Arc dodging is really easy at range 1, but very hard at range 3. A Defender never wants to be at range 1 unless he's behind you. Range 3 is the sweet-spot for Defenders. If they have a cannon, their opponent doesn't get an extra defense die, but the defender does.

Vessery w/ Ion, Outmaneuver and Cluster Missiles also makes a fantastic Phantom Killer by the way.

Vessery w/ Ion, Outmaneuver and Cluster Missiles also makes a fantastic Phantom Killer by the way.

That particular Vessery build makes a fantastic ANYTHNG killer, so long as he's got something to acquire target locks for him...

Further on the mathematical models, you can quantify combat very reliably, but the rest of the game involves human minds. And nothing screws up a model more than contact with those.

Welcome to...

X-WING - The Miniatures Game: MajorJuggalo Edition

You will need:

• 2 x X-Wing The Miniatures Game Miniatures (with pilot cards)
• a range ruler
• a calculator

How to play:

• set ships up at exactly range two from each other
• do not move
• choose the focus action
• in pilot skill order, use the calculator to determine the average number of damaged caused using red dice plus focus only, then use calculator to determine average number of damage avoided using green dice and focus only
• compare results, deal damage dealt
• if the defender is still alive, reverse and repeat process
• continue until one player's ship is destroyed, or both players give/throw up
• whatever the result, the player with the TIE Fighter wins

There's really no need to attack guy, especially considering the amount of effort he has put into dispelling this nonsense.

BUT

This is basically how a defender dial forces one side to play. It is a jousting dial on a ship that is mathematically inferior at jousting.

I've only flown Jonas brothers as half of my team epic game because the 100 point list doesn't really fit my playstyle (I like having one super awesome ace in every list)

They basically did all the work out of our combined 400 points

Double HLC re-rolls + focus shots are just stupid

Yea the damage is really nice. But competent arc dodgers kind of eat it alive. It's great fun. It's just not that good.

Competency isn't really an argument. A competent Defender pilot won't get arc-dodged. Arc dodging is really easy at range 1, but very hard at range 3. A Defender never wants to be at range 1 unless he's behind you. Range 3 is the sweet-spot for Defenders. If they have a cannon, their opponent doesn't get an extra defense die, but the defender does.

Vessery w/ Ion, Outmaneuver and Cluster Missiles also makes a fantastic Phantom Killer by the way.

A competent defender won't get arc dodged? WUT.

How in the chocolate Jebus does a ps1-8 defender or even a pair of them get eyes on Whisper?

no, the defender is mathematically inferior at trading dice. The name "jousting value" is a bit misleading there.

the defender is a superior jouster because it is the only ship that can joust indefinitely rather than having to force itself into greens before it can k-turn again

I've only flown Jonas brothers as half of my team epic game because the 100 point list doesn't really fit my playstyle (I like having one super awesome ace in every list)

They basically did all the work out of our combined 400 points

Double HLC re-rolls + focus shots are just stupid

Yea the damage is really nice. But competent arc dodgers kind of eat it alive. It's great fun. It's just not that good.

Competency isn't really an argument. A competent Defender pilot won't get arc-dodged. Arc dodging is really easy at range 1, but very hard at range 3. A Defender never wants to be at range 1 unless he's behind you. Range 3 is the sweet-spot for Defenders. If they have a cannon, their opponent doesn't get an extra defense die, but the defender does.

Vessery w/ Ion, Outmaneuver and Cluster Missiles also makes a fantastic Phantom Killer by the way.

A competent defender won't get arc dodged? WUT.

How in the chocolate Jebus does a ps1-8 defender or even a pair of them get eyes on Whisper?

Pretty easily. It's often pretty easy to tell where Whisper is going to decloak. A Phantom also only has one post-movement maneuver, the barrel-roll. At long ranges, a firing arc is so large that it is very difficult to get out of. Also, Whisper is terrible at turning around. A Defender on the other hand is quite good at it.

Basically if you keep distance between you and the Phantom and have a cannon, it's pretty easy to get shots on it. And a Phantom just needs to get Ioned once...and then it's pretty doomed.

There's really no need to attack guy, especially considering the amount of effort he has put into dispelling this nonsense.

BUT

This is basically how a defender dial forces one side to play. It is a jousting dial on a ship that is mathematically inferior at jousting.

Oh, that wasn't an attack. It was satire.

BUT...

If that's how you think TIE Defenders are best used and must operate, then it's no wonder your perception of them is mathematically inferior.

Also, Whisper is terrible at turning around. A Defender on the other hand is quite good at it.

Indeed. The TIE Defender is the best turn-arounder in the game.

Shoot whisper with a flechette cannon you have a great idea where she'll be next turn,shoot her with an ion cannon and she won't get a shot at you.

Fortunately the defender can mount both, and as your using control attacks at range she won't ever get to arc dodge in the first place.

to be fair, you have to hit whisper through her green dice

to be double fair, hitting whisper through her green dice is many times harder than getting her in arc

In that specific match-up, I've found the defender's great stats and white 4k are invaluable assets against a phantom. The speed of the manuever + keeping the focus action on top of the defender's profile are all integral to keep it shipsafe while it swings around, and the flexibility of the dial while the ship remains unstressed (white ******* k, baby!) is essential for following up on the flighty bastard. Control cannons are no guarantee, but they have decent chances of landing damage (even at range 3, which is crucial) and landing either stress or ion even on a cloaked phantom is quite limiting because it **** with the number of options whisper has for orientating her firing arc.

As you know you can't count on green dice, you'll either roll three evades or non and you only have to get one shot through to ion or stress the phantoms.

It's a dice game there's no certainty by design but that never stops you trying.

As you know you can't count on green dice, you'll either roll three evades or non and you only have to get one shot through to ion or stress the phantoms.

It's a dice game there's no certainty by design but that never stops you trying.

aye, but that counts both ways

I never count on my dice being good nor my opponent's being bad

not to suggest that you aren't absolutely right, though. there's no reason not to try and having control cannons of the Defenders mitigates the risk by quite a lot because you get tons of benefit for just sneaking a single damage through. 3 modified red dice will get through a cloaked phantom, they just won't do a lot of damage but, with control Defenders, you're not looking for raw damage

Well, you are but it depends on the target. I say defenders are a very flexible ship because they can slip between control and damage on a whim, and unlike cannon B-wings the white 4-k and high speed dial lets them exploit their stress and ion much more easily.

I think it's a cycle of people saying the defender is bad, no one flying defenders, no defender strategies are developed, so defender builds don't win, so people say the defender is bad.

I think it's a cycle of people saying the defender is bad, no one flying defenders, no defender strategies are developed, so defender builds don't win, so people say the defender is bad.

There is definitely some of that going on. I wonder if someone will figure out how to "crack the code" with the defender, like with the shuttle.

The shuttle has points efficiency going for it though, even the defenders most vigorous supporters won't claim that about the defender.

What I don't get is the claim that the defender's dial is bad. I don't understand that argument.. it's actually one of the most permissive dials in the Imperial fleet. IMO that makes it a decent dial even if the greens are restrictive.

I think it's a cycle of people saying the defender is bad, no one flying defenders, no defender strategies are developed, so defender builds don't win, so people say the defender is bad.

There is definitely some of that going on. I wonder if someone will figure out how to "crack the code" with the defender, like with the shuttle.

The shuttle has points efficiency going for it though, even the defenders most vigorous supporters won't claim that about the defender.

What I don't get is the claim that the defender's dial is bad. I don't understand that argument.. it's actually one of the most permissive dials in the Imperial fleet. IMO that makes it a decent dial even if the greens are restrictive.

a Tie Defender enthusiast claiming points efficiency would be like a Shuttle enthusiast claiming an excellent dial (i.e both would be bull, and missing the point that the ships can be incredibly effective regardless of their weaknesses)

Anyway, it's not really about cracking a code, it's just about putting the ship down on the table. Many won't though, especially not competitively when there are so many safe and tested builds to fall onto. It's just the norm of every competitive game in existence, there will always be meta builds that take up the majority attention because some high profile player pioneered it, advertised it, and the playbase latched onto it. The lack of defenders isn't because no one cracked the code, it's because we haven't had a high profile player waving the Defender flag around at high profile events.

agreed about the Defender dial, though, the only sore point for me is the red 2 turn but you can get around that with pre-engagement barrel-rolls and the freedom of the white 4k

What I don't get is the claim that the defender's dial is bad. I don't understand that argument.. it's actually one of the most permissive dials in the Imperial fleet. IMO that makes it a decent dial even if the greens are restrictive.

It's unconventional. It does take some time to get used to. And for some, it won't fit their flying style. And it is a bad dial if you don't get used to it. Nothing wrong with it, not every ship will fit to each player's style.

The biggest problem is that it flies so differently to other craft.

Folks tried to fly it like an X-Wing, and it didn't work so well.

Folks are starting to learn how to fly like a Defender, and so it's improving without needing "fixes"

"They just don't have the ability to stay alive if your opponent wants them dead." Your point being? I could say the same about EVERY ship in the game.

"Some people can do well with them, but that's primarily due to their opponent not being used to facing one." That's a great example of a massive assumption. Again, I suppose I could say the same about EVERY ship in the game.

You can't just will a TIE Phantom or a super RD-D2 Corran Horn dead or a 35 point Soontir dead. There are a lot of defensive tokens to burn through and such. Killing a TIE Defender is about as difficult as killing a TIE Fighter or two, especially with the crazy action economy stuff going on these days, ala Predator and FCS.

The Defender is kind of the last gasp of FFG making a ship/upgrade with actual drawbacks. It still shouldn't cost so much, but even if it costed less there would still be limitations to playing one. Now you can have an HLC turret that can ignore asteroids and barrel roll on its large base without equipping Expert Handling. Pre-Tie Phantom, crap like that wouldn't fly.

I think the defender is a great ship, and needs no fixes, but if I were to propose a fix, it would a modification:

Ion Gun Thingy - 0

When attacking, if you hit you may choose to cancel all dice then deal 1 damage and assign 1 ion token to the defender instead.