As much I appreciate MJ's number crunching on math wing I don't use it as the sole judgement value for how good or bad a ship is because anyone will tell you a good game has intangible variables. Even Maj Juggler will admit that he isn't too sure about the value of the white K-turn in the jousting calculation.

Incidentally we are covering Imperials wave 4 tomorrow for NOVA Squadron Radio #21, which should air early next week. So stay tuned...

It would be neat if you DO NOT drag and drone on for thirty minutes with your incredibly boring math.

It fixes nothing, absolutely nothing at all.

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. The episodes run long, but even if you add up all the Math discussion it is still certainly less than 30 minutes. That said, I'll take it into consideration. But I also take into consideration that for every comment I get like yours, I get about 20 more that say "keep up talking about math". So you are rather out-voted by a wide margin.

There are also plenty of other X-wing podcasts that don't go through "the math".

We already know the ships that suck, putting a number on them is utterly useless.

Sure, most everyone agrees now, but what about before the ship was released? The designers and playtesters would presumably have disagreed initially, unless it was their intent to release an overcosted ship. (unlikely)

It was exactly by "putting a number on them", that the math predicted that the Defender was overcosted before it was released, and almost certainly before the designers realized it themselves.

Therefore I personally think that those numbers are useful. But it is also not my job to convince anyone, so, carry on!

Juggies just kicked my big-ass... did you guys see it?

I love you Juggies, but you put me to sleep sometimes, my wonderful Star Brother.

Now bring that fire to Ed's show!!!

I'm not taking the piss, but what exactly is a professional x-wing tournament player?

Same thing a robot death hamster fairy.

Non-existent.

Except I don't particularly want a professional x-wing tournament player, whereas a robot death hamster fairy... !!!!!

Further on the mathematical models, you can quantify combat very reliably, but the rest of the game involves human minds. And nothing screws up a model more than contact with those.

The defender dial is so lackluster that I think the math is probably bang-on.

The defender dial is so lackluster that I think the math is probably bang-on.

For the maths to be completely bang on it'd need the same dial as the TIE fighter.

But I'd say if it's failing you utterly you're probably playing to its weaknesses rather than its strengths. You can't furball with it.

Can we just lock this thread?

Can we just lock this thread?

I feel the need to thank you for this incredibly helpful post, and am astounded that a person could manage to contribute so much in a single sentence.

If you don't like a thread, DON'T OPEN IT. It's that simple.

However, it is neither your nor any other non-moderator's place to set your mind to derailing any thread you dislike the discussion in. It is not your place to dictate what other members can and cannot discuss.

And if you ever see this post, I find myself wondering why you keep opening a thread you so clearly dislike.

Can we just lock this thread?

Why?

We are all having fun... no insults are flying or anything.

Grown-ass-men can fuss and it is still a lot of fun.

The defender dial is so lackluster that I think the math is probably bang-on.

Lackluster for you. For me, it always served me well for what I expected from the ship.

What Tie Pilot said is very important. If you just look at the card and raw stats of the ship, it is overpriced. This, nobody can't deny. But the ship have a style of his own that if it does click with yours, it won't feel like you paid too much for it. What you can do with the Defenders, you can't with any other ship. Of course, you could argue that for the points, you're better to take Soontir, or Vader or Whisper, but maybe that's just not what you want to fly. Maybe you already have your arc-dodger in your team and need a tank that can always keep his line of sight on his target. That you take a Defender or any other ship, the importance is that you feel like you get what you expect and paid for.

For any ship in this game, there will always have some people that think that it is overpriced and others that think it is just fine; there will always have some people that think that it is overpowered and others that think it is just fine. If you can't make a ship work, maybe the ship is just not for you: Either practice more with it, or find another one. But if some people can make a ship work, maybe it is not in such a bad shape after all. Or, you can be that guy and just says that all his opponent sucks.

"You'd be wrong. Soontir can arc dodge. Whisper can arc dodge. Han can arc dodge. Corran can arc dodge and regen. Dash can arc dodge. There isn't another ship as expensive as the defenders that makes it so easy to reliably land hits. If any of the main string closers dies to a Bwing in the late game, no matter how beat up they are going into it, then they've screwed up. If rexlar or Vessery do, it's probably just math.

A white K is not a surprise. Choosing where to decloak or where to boost or barrel roll with a large base is a surprise."

The Defender can arc dodge... I'm not sure if you're aware, but the Defender has a barrel roll. It's also difficult to see how you concluded that the Defender is a ship that you can so easily land reliable hits on. It has a focus, a nice k-turn, and three agility. You also state a white K is not a surprise, but that is completely wrong headed because, unless your playing an opponent with ESP, your maneuvers are chosen in secret, so your opponent cannot, with certainty, know where you will be. Ergo, it CAN be a surprise. And the success of a Defender is, in large part, dictated by the player's choices and not "just math."

Yes, sometimes they technically can sometimes arc dodge, but I would put them about even with an obsidian squadron pilot in their ability to do so. A barrel roll alone does not make you a real arc dodger, lol.

I thoroughly enjoy the defender in Alliance. I hope they do something to beef up its red or green dice. It feels like it is lacking in both at its current price.

What can a defender do that no other ship can do? Barrel after a K. That's it...

Everyone with a system slot can barrel or focus before a K and they have green banks coming out of it, so being able to AS focus-->K is just as good in most cases.

I've enjoyed quite a few defender lists, but up against the real powerhouses in X-wing they are severely lacking. The defender has given me exactly what I expected as well. Something different but not especially competitive.

What can a defender do that no other ship can do? Barrel after a K. That's it...

K-turn without having to green afterwards, K-turn and retain action economy and present the constant threat of the white K even if it doesn't take it.

If you can't see the psychological effect the white K turn has then I can understand you not seeing the value in the TIE defender.

"You'd be wrong. Soontir can arc dodge. Whisper can arc dodge. Han can arc dodge. Corran can arc dodge and regen. Dash can arc dodge. There isn't another ship as expensive as the defenders that makes it so easy to reliably land hits. If any of the main string closers dies to a Bwing in the late game, no matter how beat up they are going into it, then they've screwed up. If rexlar or Vessery do, it's probably just math.

A white K is not a surprise. Choosing where to decloak or where to boost or barrel roll with a large base is a surprise."

The Defender can arc dodge... I'm not sure if you're aware, but the Defender has a barrel roll. It's also difficult to see how you concluded that the Defender is a ship that you can so easily land reliable hits on. It has a focus, a nice k-turn, and three agility. You also state a white K is not a surprise, but that is completely wrong headed because, unless your playing an opponent with ESP, your maneuvers are chosen in secret, so your opponent cannot, with certainty, know where you will be. Ergo, it CAN be a surprise. And the success of a Defender is, in large part, dictated by the player's choices and not "just math."

Yes, sometimes they technically can sometimes arc dodge, but I would put them about even with an obsidian squadron pilot in their ability to do so. A barrel roll alone does not make you a real arc dodger, lol.

I thoroughly enjoy the defender in Alliance. I hope they do something to beef up its red or green dice. It feels like it is lacking in both at its current price.

you really can't put them about even with an obsidian because obsidians can't roll after a 4k nor can it ignore the stress it receives after a 4k

I don't find defenders to be competitively lacking at all. They devour enemy jousters between control cannons and the white 4k, have enough stats to cross swords with turrets or other large ships, and just take aggressors apart. Their low PS leaves them slightly vulnerable to phantoms, but between cannons and the white 4k's available they can deal with them far better than any other imperial generic I've come across (apart from the decivader, of course, but **** turrets)

The rigid dial is incredibly misleading at first glance, but the Defender really is an incredibly flexible little monster and almost completely self-sufficient/capable of engaging solidly against every conceivable threat. You pay for these capabilities, naturally, but they're there to be taken advantage of.

You need to think about the subsequent turns. If you only think about the present turn, of course you can have similar results with some other ships.

But taking your Advanced Sensor exemple. With which ship in the Imperial Navy would you be able to do it exactly? The Phantom? You don't k-turn with a Phantom and don't fly it like you would a Defender. The Advanced post fix? I guess, but then you would not take AC or ATC and would be left with 2 attack dice. And in either case, you would not be able to pull it off next turn since you would be stress, your dial would be close-off, while the Defender can still maneuver as if there was nothing.

What can a defender do that no other ship can do? Barrel after a K. That's it...

Everyone with a system slot can barrel or focus before a K and they have green banks coming out of it, so being able to AS focus-->K is just as good in most cases.

I've enjoyed quite a few defender lists, but up against the real powerhouses in X-wing they are severely lacking.

They can K-turn, then Barrel Roll, Focus, take white moves, take red moves, K-turn with stress, and do it again, and again, and again, with a cannon.

Advance Sensors->K-turn is about as good as a white K-turn for one turn, but not having to clear stress afterwards and being able to do it more than once has real utility.

Aside from the K-turn, a small based ship with a cannon and a fast movement dial was not like anything else in the game until the Scyk came along, and I think we can all understand that those two ships are still pretty different.

What can a defender do that no other ship can do? Barrel after a K. That's it...

K-turn without having to green afterwards, K-turn and retain action economy and present the constant threat of the white K even if it doesn't take it.

If you can't see the psychological effect the white K turn has then I can understand you not seeing the value in the TIE defender.

Defenders have terrible action economy, so retaining it doesn't really do much. And every white move you can do out of the K is green for someone else. The base problem with the defender is that their dials and pilot abilities virtually guarantee that they are depending on rolling unmodified red or green dice.

They don't see competitive play. That's not because people just haven't figured them out.

What can a defender do that no other ship can do? Barrel after a K. That's it...

K-turn without having to green afterwards, K-turn and retain action economy and present the constant threat of the white K even if it doesn't take it.

If you can't see the psychological effect the white K turn has then I can understand you not seeing the value in the TIE defender.

Defenders have terrible action economy, so retaining it doesn't really do much. And every white move you can do out of the K is green for someone else. The base problem with the defender is that their dials and pilot abilities virtually guarantee that they are depending on rolling unmodified red or green dice.

They don't see competitive play. That's not because people just haven't figured them out.

only it is, and that's the way the meta has worked in this game

just because for the longest time it's been nothing but ******* phantom + decimator doesn't mean that nothing else is worth taking. BBBBZ and panic attack had to come from somewhere and it sure as **** wasn't from believing that things that have not worked previously will continue to not work indefinitely. Now we just need someone to pioneer the Defender in competitive play at the higher levels so forum groupthink can synch closer to reality.

So someone please the champion this awesome and oft underestimated little ship (I'm too busy championing the stress wing )

Panic attack and bbbbz use ships that are pretty efficient and ships that shut down the maneuverability of their opponents. Defenders score low on efficiency and basically 0 on negatively impacting their targets.

There are exactly 2 defender lists that are kinda good. Neither has made it consistently at top tournaments. Jonus brothers is alright. Fel,vessery, doom is okay.

But those lists are not top-end. If you think that there are defender lists out there that are globally competitive then please share. If we're not listing examples then I can just as easily claim that generic E's or non-title Advanced's are just waiting for someone to figure them out.

What's this BBBBZ thing about? Is there a clever tactical purpose to the Z, or is it just filler?

Panic attack and bbbbz use ships that are pretty efficient and ships that shut down the maneuverability of their opponents. Defenders score low on efficiency and basically 0 on negatively impacting their targets.

There are exactly 2 defender lists that are kinda good. Neither has made it consistently at top tournaments. Jonus brothers is alright. Fel,vessery, doom is okay.

But those lists are not top-end. If you think that there are defender lists out there that are globally competitive then please share. If we're not listing examples then I can just as easily claim that generic E's or non-title Advanced's are just waiting for someone to figure them out.

you could, but you'd actually have to back it up with their abilities that merit consideration over their horrible efficiency. The combination of the Defender's dial + cannon is a unique combination of strengths that is unique throughout the entirety of the x-wing lineup which neither of the aforementioned ships (nor any other ship in the game) can boast.

as for lists

Soontir Fell (push the limit, royal guard tie, stealth device, auto-thrusters)

Delta (Flechette cannon) X 2

has been the most consistently awesome list for me

What's this BBBBZ thing about? Is there a clever tactical purpose to the Z, or is it just filler?

it's the clever tactical use of more dice

it is the only thing that fits after four naked blue squadrons, but the Z is like the B in that they both have great jousting values

I can't claim it's the super awesome ship of killy doom that people want it be.

But I have never been disappointed with it. Rex always seems to carry more than his weight, take loads of punishment and rip stuff up.

That said, I've never took the genetics. Really doesn't seem any point.

Panic attack and bbbbz use ships that are pretty efficient and ships that shut down the maneuverability of their opponents. Defenders score low on efficiency and basically 0 on negatively impacting their targets.

There are exactly 2 defender lists that are kinda good. Neither has made it consistently at top tournaments. Jonus brothers is alright. Fel,vessery, doom is okay.

But those lists are not top-end. If you think that there are defender lists out there that are globally competitive then please share. If we're not listing examples then I can just as easily claim that generic E's or non-title Advanced's are just waiting for someone to figure them out.

You can't possibly say "There are exactly 2 defender lists that are kinda good". The whole point he was making was that people just haven't popularized the right list yet. Unless you've flown every possible list against a represenattive number of other possible lists (or seen others do so) then your statement smacks of groupthink to me.

A few pages ago you hit the nail on the head ficklegreendice.

I love the Delta Squadron Defender because it is PS 1. Not only can you block like a boss, but you can pretty much guarantee your white 4K, increasing your efficiency. This ship might be overcosted, but I have had great success taking just one Delta Defender, naked in my list. With the other threats presented it can be a beast on offense while largely getting ignored, or can get focused on, which allows the rest of your list to pounce.

Focusing on a 3 Agility ship with PS 1 is also fun. Saving it for defense before having to fire it on offense is awesome.

This ship flies completely different than an arc dodger, while still giving you that utility with the barrel roll as necessary. It can withstand some direct firepower and return the favor. For me the stat line is perfect.

I agree it is hard to make the higher PS Defender pilots work. Their abilities are good, but their PS is what would set them apart. I would like to see something like a Defender Aces or Imperial Aces 2 with new pilots and possibly a title that maybe nets you an extra action after a 4K or reduces the cost of a modification or other equipped upgrade by 2-3 points. Free Proton Rocket...hull upgrade, or maybe Free or cheaper Predator on a named pilot? Cool beans.

it's the clever tactical use of more dice

it is the only thing that fits after four naked blue squadrons, but the Z is like the B in that they both have great jousting values

Ah right, I just wondered if there was a more specific tactic intended.

I'm waiting to see how Vess plays with ATC squaddies before asking FFG for an aces pack