so she says she can just (once per turn) remove a heart and add an exhaustion, with the card reading 'may cancel a heart'. this reads to me like in the process of getting a heart (wound through whatever means) she may switch for exhaustion. she my wife, me distraught husband. please help us. please.

there was this huge discussions about scorp's ability way back....in the old forum.

But IIRC, cancelling refers to when you have just received a wound...kinda like the way armor works.

A question came up regarding this very ability during the first time several of my friends played this game (I just got it for my birthday last week). The question being that can Red Scorpion take multiple fatigueto cancel multiple wounds in one shot? Example: She takes 3 wounds damage in one hit, can she take 3 Fatigue to cancel all three of those wounds?

Thanks

-Nyt

Red Scorpion can spend fatigue to cancel wounds. Ie. she may spend 3 fatigue to cancel a 3 point hit she takes. However, she may not spend more fatigue than she has available. Ie. She may not spend 5 points of fatigue to cancels 5 wounds being dealt to her, as this would go over her fatigue limit.

Thanks That answer actually answers one of my other questions in another thread as well!

-Nyt

JeR said:

It says "once per turn" meaning only once per ENTIRE TURN. So one wound from the beginning of your turn to your next beginning of your turn (effect can be used on an opponents turn) Red Scorpion is still the best hero in the entire game in my meaning, she has "free" armor (1 heart is alot!) and a total of 12 combat value! Noobs always look for who makes the most damage, but Red Scorp has the chance to be anything, ranged melee or magic from start where others are pretty much forced to go with their best starting values.

Notice other occasions where this type of wording is used, One-Fist: Once per turn, you may take 1 EX to re-roll a combat roll. Clearly stating only once per entire turn. And further evidence is found if we look at an ally called Runemaster Baras: Baras may take 1 EX to let your Hero re-roll his combat dice (notice how you see no "once per turn" meaning he can use it multiple times even in a row if the hero keep on failing his rolls)

If she would have been able to use it multiple times it would not have stated once per turn. Look at Spiritspeaker Mok: Before moving, you may take 2 EX to discard 1 HE. Since there is no limitation stated he can use his ability multiple times (if he has the EX to spend). This has been gone through in the FAQ. Here is the link:

http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Runebound/RuneboundFAQ2_2.pdf

Quote:
A card may be used multiple times for the same effect unless the card states otherwise. For example, Spiritseeker Mok may use his ability to “take 2 EX to discard 1 HE to take 4 EX and discard 2 HE.

The power works as stated above. She may spend fatigue, once per turn, to cancel multiple wounds. This is straight from Jason Steinhurst, developer for Frozen Wastes. With One-Fist, he could only re-roll once. Using his power multiple times with the same action would still only result in the one attack being re-rolled. Spiritspeaker Mok is able to activate his power many times per turn, before and after various effects. This is the limitation on Red Scorpion. She is only able to activte her power once per turn, be it to cancel 1 wound or many wounds.

JeR said:

Wow ok. I can't see the logic behind that though, far unbalanced. And I almost even thought that before I knew of this. Well, I guess it's up to each and everyone to play as they like

So it seems like, in order to deal with the vague language surrounding these "pay this for that" cards in general, the universal ruling is that there is never a limit on how many X you can pay for Y, just a possible limit on how many times you can trigger the exchange per turn.

I.E. there are no cards with the intent like Trade one, and only one , heart for one, and only one , exhaustion per turn.

Is that correct?

Oops, I think I still had it wrong, but now I think I finally have it figured out.

The way to look at it may be by thinking you have to trigger the card to get its power (using trigger instead of activate to avoid confusion), like pressing a button on the face of the card. When you press the button on a discard card, the card explodes, so there's no way to use it again. When you press the button on an activate to use card, you get one triggering of the power but the button stays down until it resets at the start (or is it end) of the turn.

When you press the button on an always-on card, nothing happens. You can hit the button all day long. Which is why you can use Mok to discard 2 wounds for 4 exhaustion. What's never clearly explained here is that you're triggering Mok's power twice, but since you can trigger it all day long until the cows come home it doesn't matter. And so the limitting factor for Red Scorpion is that it can be triggered once per turn.

The easily made mistake is considering the use of Mok's power to trade wounds and exhaustion 2 for 1 or 4 for 2 or 6 for 3 as all the same thing. You can do each of those, it's just that 4 for 2 is two triggerings of the card and 6 for 3 is three triggerings of the card. But since you can trigger his power unlimittedly, that part is never paid attention to much.

OK, to clarify the following Heroes:

Laughin Buldar: "Your allies gain a +2 bonus to their attack rolls. Once per turn Laughin Buldar may take 1 exhaustion to increase this bonus to +4 for one attack." This means, that Laughin may take 3 exhaustion to increase the bonus to +12 for one attack?

Shiver: " Melee: If Shiver successfully defends, he may take 2 exhaustion to inflict +2 wounds in magic combat until the end of the combat round." This means, that Shiver may take 4 exhaustion (after increasing his Stamina) to inflict +4 wounds in a magic attack?

Red Scorpion: "Once per turn, you may take 1 exhaustion to cancel 1 wound." This means, Red Scorpion may take 4 exhaustion to cancel 4 wounds from only ONE attack?

Ronan of the Wild: "After rolling your movement dice, you may take 1 exhaustion to re-roll 1 movement die." This means, Ronan may take 4 exhaustion to re-roll 4 movement dice?

Silhouette: "After attacking in one phase, you may take 2 exhaustion to attack in a second phase." This means, Silhouette can only attack a maximum of two phases. She cannot take 4 exhaustion to attack in all three phases?

One-Fist: "Once per turn, you may take 1 exhaustion to re-roll a combat roll." This means, One-Fist may continue taking one exhaustion to continue re-rolling the SAME combat roll?

Kael, Son of Gurin: "Once per combat phase, you may take 1 exhaustion to receive a +3 bonus to a combat roll." This means, Kael may take 4 exhaustion to receive a +12 bonus to a single combat roll?

Elaria: " Ranged: Once per combat round after a successful ranged attack, you may take 1 exhaustion to attack again this phase." This means, Elaria may take 3 exhaustion to attack a total of 4 times in the same phase as long as she was successful the first three times?

Let me know if I have these right. Thanks!!

Gamemaster said:

Gamemaster said:

Gamemaster said:

Gamemaster said:

Gamemaster said:

Gamemaster said:

Gamemaster said:

Gamemaster said:

Kevinjt4 said:

JeR said:

Who's correct?

FAQ 2.2 clarifies this point enough, in my opinion.

Rule Changes and Clarifications
Heroes’ and Allies’ special abilities can only be used for themselves unless the card says otherwise.
A card may be used multiple times for the same effect unless the card states otherwise . For example, Spiritseeker Mok may use his ability to “take 2 Fatigue to discard 1 Wound” to take 4 Fatigue and discard 2 Wounds. However, remember that a card can only be activated once per turn, and that a “Before Combat” ability may only be used once per combat.

"Unless the card states otherwise" is the origin of discussion: where is it stated otherwise? Red Scorpion has "once per turn" written on her card, but FAQ says that every card can only be activated once per turn (wording is unnecessary if this rule applies).

Activate the card once per turn means "to use the ability once per turn". If you can take cumulative Fatigue to activate the ability up to its maximum effect. You can use Red Scorpion's ability to take 4 Fatigue instead of 4 Wounds from a single attack, but you can't use it to take 2+2 Fatigue to prevent 2+2 Wounds from two different attacks.

Silhouette has nothing on her card (it's unnecessary to say "once per turn") and I assume you can only take 2 Fatigue once per Turn to attack in a second Phase (Melee or Magic as you wish, if you attack in the Ranged one). You can't take 2 more to attack in the third Phase because it will be a second activation of the Ability. You can't take 4 Fatigue when you activate the ability to attack in all three phases, because it goes against the wording of the Ability "attack in a second phase".

With One Fist you may take Fatigue to re-roll a combat roll; you may use the ability Once per turn, but you can take multiple Fatigue to re-roll the same Combat roll how many times you wish, if one single re-roll is not enough to be sure. The trick is: you must take all Fatigue in one single card activation, not as required (when you see that the second roll is as bad as the first).

The_Warlock said:

"Activate once per turn" means just that. A card can only be activated once per turn. Those would be cards that say "Activate to use X ability."

Red Scorpion and Spiritseeker Mok do not "activate" their abilities. However, Red Scorpion does say "once per turn" which is the " unless the card states otherwise " from the FAQ. This leads me to believe she cannot take 2 EX to cancel 2 Hearts, as this would be using the ability twice.

Bishop084 said:

I hope it's not like you say. Red Scorpion ability is going to be pretty weak then. Considering that her basic style of combat is defensive, she has to endure some more rounds than the average Character with double damage on one Skill. The Ability to prevent up to 4 Wounds from a single attack is powerful indeed, but so are Battlemage Jaes and Silhouette Abilities, which have no "once per turn" limitation, if we assume that "once per turn" should be written on card to be applied.

If the statement However, remember that a card can only be activated once per turn, and that a “Before Combat” ability may only be used once per combat. , is not applicable to Character cards, whyt did they put it just after the Special Abilities clarification?

I think we should read it this way: Characters can perform their Special Abilities once per turn (as a rule) and can use it multiple times (which is still "once per turn") for the same effect if not stated otherwise. If you don't interpret it this way, Jaes and Silhouette have outstanding Special Abilities while Red Scorpion's is too weak.

I wish I could get some official clarification to sort this matter...

The_Warlock said:

As do I. Depending on which way this goes, it can really make or break some characters.

I don't know if this will help or hinder the discussion, but in Descent Red Scorpion has the the following ability:

"At the start of your turn, you may spend 1 fatigue to gain 1 wound or suffer 1 wound to gain 1 fatigue."

Not exactly the same as her Runebound power, but similar. Kevin Wilson, the designer of Descent, has officially said that she may use this ability to gain multiple wounds/fatigue, but she has to do it all at once at the start of her turn. Again, I am aware that Descent != Runebound, but given the parallels in ability, I would play it that Red can cancel multiple wounds in one attack, but can only do this once per turn.

Steve-O said:

Which is reasonable. It's how I play it.

Red Scorpion: "Once per turn, you may take 1 exhaustion to cancel 1 wound"

I think that you can use the ability only once per turn to cancel ONLY ONE wound. If you could use it once per turn to cancel multiple wounds it should say something like : "Once per turn, you may take X exhaustion to cancel X wound"

no doubt that's how it should be worded, but we are talking about ffg here and as much as I love their games, there is an irritating habit of not being %100 clear text on some of their material.

Specifically for red scorpion, I recently got an official ruling from John Goodenough via the rules questions. Red Scorpion can take one and only one EX for one and only one wound once per turn, since it has the once per turn qualification it cannot be pumped. Spiritspeaker mok, via the example does not have a limiting phrase, which makes sense since pumpable, that would be a serious advantage in the later game, worth a 10 or more gold item. I think the abilities should be worth about a five gold item, maybe a six. Mok's on the other hand saves gold it doesn't actually help in the middle of a battle.

bigmac said:

Duly noted for future games. I've never found her ability to be game breaking when we played (we played that it could be pumped but only used once in a combat), but its nice to know the official answer.

bigmac said:

*necro thread*

Oh hi again. Is this the official rule now? When I left this thread I thought she could spend multiple Fatigue to cancel multiple wounds. If this is incorrect I'm a bit confused as the last months I've played it as it was stated before I left this thread.

It sure would make me never choose One-Fist, for example. As I play it now he can spend 1, reroll, spend another, reroll. Or as it would seem more logical by rulings, spend X fatigue to make X possible rerolls (but stop anytime he likes if the roll is good)

It looks like Red Scorpion ability is treated differently from One Fist's and Spiritspeaker's Mok abilities- The latter can stack their abilities multiple times, while Red Scorpion has a "once per turn" restriction that somewhat shortens her powers.

Basically she has a free Leather armor always on, which is not a bad starting skill.