I buy from my LGS almost exclusively. When I first got into the game (shortly after W2) I had to buy a few models from B+N and Amazon since no one else had them in stock (not to mention I bought 4 core sets from Target when they were $12). But besides that I've bought every ship from a LGS, most from my normal one. Back when I was still growing my collection, every time I played at the store (normally once/week, but sometimes I wouldn't be able to make it), I'd buy a ship. Now I don't really have a need to do that.

I have heard of such legendary times. Alas, it was before my day.

I only buy from my FLGS, it is tough decision but one I am happy to live with. I don't look down on those who buy online. Not everyone is in the same financial situation as Me. After all this is only hobby so spend what you can afford. My FLGS gives me a volume discount when applicable. This is possible because I am a bit of an odd ball and buy my ships in squadron or flight sized grouped. Typically, three, six or twelve ships depending on rarity of the design and battle field role.I also earn points for future product on instore purchases. They are really going out of their way to give me a competitive discount, while still paying their bills- that is tough for a brick and mortar store to do.

Pass... I pay my income tax and property tax. I'd rather not pay another state's sales tax, especially since I end up paying a larger portion of my income in the process.

Nothing really like that out here in my part of Ohio.

Whereabouts in Ohio, your profile doesn't say?

A new one of these just opened about 2 weeks ago in Macedonia, between Cleveland and Akron, the malted meeple. They advertise "games, milkshakes and craft beer". Basically a $5 cover charge to get access to their game library and play all day. Adequate selection of popular games right now, that will probably grow with time.

I have also heard there is a similar place in Toledo.

The BrewDog (UK Craft Brewer) Bars do something similar over here - you can bring your own, or if you donate one to their collection you get a free pint of Punk IPA ( so lots of monopoly, not so many copies of 3rd edition Space Hulk )

I always try to buy locally, my flgs gets about 90% of my xwing money. They're great guys and I'd hate for them to vanish.

Only when I'm at a tournament and need that one card for my list I buy something there.

One thing I think always gets overlooked when this discussion comes up is this, let's compare CSI and MM to wal-mart. Where have all the mom and pop businesses gone? Away, driving savings down by selling more is very profitable from a business stand point, but where does it leave you as a community? If all the smaller stores continue to loose sales to online retailers then the only places left to play in store champs and regionals would be at the online stores location. While this might not bother those who live close to miniature market and such it would affect the number of places available to host store champs and such. That would be a fun season, what four or five regionals a year since the number of stores would dramatically decrease. This brings us to what it would do to sales since a large portion of the community is tournament/game nights at a store based. The sales would dwindle which would eventually lead to a drop of the game which would hamper the play at home crowd due to a lack of new options. The moral of the story is support your community and keep money invested there instead of hurting the your community. Where you spend your money affects what's around you in your daily life. If you want to plan a trip halfway across the country because it's the closet place to you in the handful regionals they are doing this year then buy all means keep sending your cash to make improvements in someone else's community.

This entire post presumes that the majority of players care about tournaments - is that the case? Play at home is where the VAST majority of board gaming occurs. I'd still be very happy with this game if they had stopped at Wave 3. Define 'lack of options'

I don't nor probably ever will play in a game store - I'm playing fairly regularly with other humans too - at my house, with my ships that I bought from Amazon. I'd much rather support the company that makes the game than the middle man. I've got enough friends that are interested in playing that are buying in too from Amazon or MM as well. Sorry FLGS, you just aren't my cup of tea.

Amazon is a middleman you know...hell it's probably the third man on the ladder...ffg to distributor to Amazon to you...

I but primarily at my flgs but he keeps his prices more or less in line with the Web stores who he sees as his primary competition...they cost about what the product would run with shipping from online...and I don't have to wait...his preorders rock too. Getting my raider for $70 afree taxes..

Well yes, technically of course it is - however, when I said middle man, I meant the the extra $10-$15 of overhead that a brick store adds on. Most of the time when I purchase from Amazon it appears to be coming directly from FFG - not a different distributor. And - for a basic expansion, it's around $10. That is hard to beat, and since I don't care about anything else at a store - why would I pay more to just play at home with my friends?

My FLGS has a membership program that gets me 35%, so between that and winning store credit at tournaments, I do OK locally.

My local store, Moxie's here in Columbus, Ga. is just a great store. The local league is nice so I feel it is only fair to buy some of my models from them. In fact I'd say half of my models are from their store and the other half are online when they didn't have any in stock or the online price was just too good.

I figure that by paying more in the store I'm also helping to ensure a place for myself and others to keep playing at. I lived close to another town in my college years and that was about the time when online shopping became a thing. Our local gaming store was a great place but once everyone started buying online the owner couldn't keep the place going. I will never forget the look on his face when he had his last out of business day and my gaming group got together for one last play session. If more of his customers had bought from him that store would still be there.

I told myself I would never let that happen again if I lived in a town with a great local gaming store. So yes, I know I'm costing myself money by not strictly buying online. But I also value playing with others and keeping a store going that will attract new fans and players. It is the same reason I also avidly support my local comic book store. Buying everything online is not in your best interest long term.

Buying everything online is not in your best interest long term.

That is highly debatable. The romance of the mom & pop store is quite a lot like the family farm, people supported it without really thinking about the economics behind it. It was the romantic notion of such things that people want, not the economic reality.

I know a lot of people have issue with Warmart, but it has done a lot to improve the quality of life of low to low-middle income people, by offering products that they can afford better.

The LGS is in much the same state, they quite simply have to face the fact that they are competing with online retailers, and need to adjust their business practice accordingly. They need to offer services that are worth the increased price they charge for their products.

If a store can't do that, then that's the owners fault, and not the fault of the online boogie man. Quite often I see LGS that do nothing to even try to compete with online retailers. They don't offer any sort of discount, they don't do some sort of rewards program, they charge for table space and/or prize support...

For myself, I simply would not buy as much product if I did so solely at my LGS. I'd only buy 2-3 of most ships rather than 3+.

Sorry, quoted the wrong post, was replying to the person who quoted my post and wanted a reply.

I believe lack of options really doesn't need defined but just in case it means nothing new comes out and your left with no new builds and you've played through all the options you have. Eventually the game will become like all other dead games in the past and maybe you can get one or to people to play a couple of games a year. That's what happens to games with no new items coming out, people grow tired of the same options and they move on to new games that are still in production and have an active player base. There have been many games I have played and really enjoyed but once they are dead players quit playing. It's all related whether you play at home or in tournaments, if you want an active game and player base the. A company has to be profitable and players need a place to play and meet, if there is no place to see a game being played the. They really aren't going to know that they can drop by your house and get a game, in fact they won't even know your playing a game. The influx of new players would be non existent and if they had stopped after wave 3 then you would be on these message boards talking to yourself, why you ask because most of us would have moved on to something new. Sure you can still play a dead game, but how hard is it to get people together after a game dies. People lose interest, I've seen it happen too many times in the past. My post wasn't exactly saying spend more to play at home, was stating that your local community should profit from money you spend, not someone else's community. I mean if you like seeing a bunch of empty buildings when you drive through your community then by all means bow to the corporate way and spend your cash in someone else community and to the retail giants........personally I prefer the local entrepreneur who takes my money and spends his in our community. Money spent in local community's benefits the local community. I'll choose local sales over spending money that goes to benefit someone else community every day of the week. When I made my initial wave 6 purchase I went to MM and put it all in the cart, mainly because the local store owner and I had been discussing difference between online purchases and I would have saved approximately $22. Yes this oils have netted me another ship or two, but it could also lead to being asked to pay for table time all day on Saturdays, not to mention possibly straining a 20 plus year friendship. Also I never would have met any of the local players who are in my local play group, when I started playing it was me and a friend of mine and I'm pretty sure the guys I play the game with now would have never seen us playing on my kitchen table.

That is highly debatable. The romance of the mom & pop store is quite a lot like the family farm, people supported it without really thinking about the economics behind it. It was the romantic notion of such things that people want, not the economic reality.

This.

I did mention this was a state taxation issue, not Federal Government.

And all states with a sales tax do have a use tax. I suppose it's technically true that the two don't have to go together, but as a matter of practice they historically have.

Yes. That's the dirty little secret that legislatures hid from people until online shopping gouged a big hole in all that tax revenue and they had to start enforcing the use tax provisions. They didn't want people to have to file use taxes, because when you do it in one lump sum at the end of the year, you realize just how much you're paying for buying stuff.

If you think you're avoiding sales taxes by buying online, you're probably doing it wrong. Just Google your state and "sales and use tax."

Tl;DR: Players should buy where they play, store owners should create a community of customers.

The problem is not people playing at home who buy online. That's simply not an issue. The problem is people buying stuff online, playing at a Local Game Store, and _never_ spending money at that place.

Or worse: shopping at a local game store, taking advantage of their knowledge and expertise, and then ordering online.

Weirdly, though, I don't think discounts are a good way to fix it. Nor is price fixing. Creating and fostering a community is how to stay in business. Not all LGSs are FLGSs. When I go into a store, I figure out if the people who work there are nice, knowledgeable, interesting, etc. Is the place I'm at a place I want to hang out? If the answer is yes, I'll go back and spend money. If the answer is no, then I'll deal with Amazon.

Buying everything online is not in your best interest long term.

That is highly debatable. The romance of the mom & pop store is quite a lot like the family farm, people supported it without really thinking about the economics behind it. It was the romantic notion of such things that people want, not the economic reality.

I know a lot of people have issue with Warmart, but it has done a lot to improve the quality of life of low to low-middle income people, by offering products that they can afford better.

The LGS is in much the same state, they quite simply have to face the fact that they are competing with online retailers, and need to adjust their business practice accordingly. They need to offer services that are worth the increased price they charge for their products.

If a store can't do that, then that's the owners fault, and not the fault of the online boogie man. Quite often I see LGS that do nothing to even try to compete with online retailers. They don't offer any sort of discount, they don't do some sort of rewards program, they charge for table space and/or prize support...

For myself, I simply would not buy as much product if I did so solely at my LGS. I'd only buy 2-3 of most ships rather than 3+.

There is nothing debatable in what I said. I don't disagree with you that stores should try to be competitive with online but if no one supports local stores then the game itself will simply die from lack of players being able to play together.

That is highly debatable. The romance of the mom & pop store is quite a lot like the family farm, people supported it without really thinking about the economics behind it. It was the romantic notion of such things that people want, not the economic reality.

This.

Do recall that both Amazon and Walmart both offer great prices in part by endangering the lives of their workers.

(The other part is great supply chain management.)

but if no one supports local stores then the game itself will simply die from lack of players being able to play together.

That is again debatable, as is everything you said, just because you claim it isn't doesn't make it so. A lot of people play games like X-Wing at their kitchen table and never step foot in a game store. For some people ordering online is their only option because there is no LGS.

If what you were saying was true, then games like Chess, Settlers of Catan, or even Monopoly, ect... should of died out years ago, due to a lack of a dedicated location for people to play.

I'm all for people buying stuff from their LGS, I do so myself. But the idea that a LGS shouldn't even try to compete, or needs to be protected with special rules is highly debatable.

One thing I think always gets overlooked when this discussion comes up is this, let's compare CSI and MM to wal-mart. Where have all the mom and pop businesses gone? Away, driving savings down by selling more is very profitable from a business stand point, but where does it leave you as a community? If all the smaller stores continue to loose sales to online retailers then the only places left to play in store champs and regionals would be at the online stores location. While this might not bother those who live close to miniature market and such it would affect the number of places available to host store champs and such. That would be a fun season, what four or five regionals a year since the number of stores would dramatically decrease. This brings us to what it would do to sales since a large portion of the community is tournament/game nights at a store based. The sales would dwindle which would eventually lead to a drop of the game which would hamper the play at home crowd due to a lack of new options. The moral of the story is support your community and keep money invested there instead of hurting the your community. Where you spend your money affects what's around you in your daily life. If you want to plan a trip halfway across the country because it's the closet place to you in the handful regionals they are doing this year then buy all means keep sending your cash to make improvements in someone else's community.

What community?

What store championship?

What regional?

What store?

The thing that always gets forgotten in these "defense of FLGS" posts is that not all of us are lucky enough to have someplace close to go.

And I refuse to be guilted into driving HOURS to find someplace because you happen to be one of the lucky ones that does. I buy online and I pay less. If your store can't compete it's not my problem.

but if no one supports local stores then the game itself will simply die from lack of players being able to play together.

That is again debatable, as is everything you said, just because you claim it isn't doesn't make it so. A lot of people play games like X-Wing at their kitchen table and never step foot in a game store. For some people ordering online is their only option because there is no LGS.

If what you were saying was true, then games like Chess, Settlers of Catan, or even Monopoly, ect... should of died out years ago, due to a lack of a dedicated location for people to play.

I'm all for people buying stuff from their LGS, I do so myself. But the idea that a LGS shouldn't even try to compete, or needs to be protected with special rules is highly debatable.

You can't really compare a two person board like Chess with a miniature board game like X-wing. You need some level of funds and dedication to get more out of it than simply buying an el cheapo chess set.

Do you really think this game would survive if the only playing of it was at homes? And I ask that as someone that plays 75% of my games at my house or a friend's house. This game is like every other specialty game like Warhammer or pen and paper RPGs that need a community of like minded players to be a sustainable business.

Just to add, not sure why you have mentioned twice in quoting my posts this idea that LGS should not be competitive with online prices. Not once have I said otherwise and in the same post that you clipped that quote from I even agreed with you that stores should try to be competitive with pricing. So can you drop that straw man?

You can't really compare a two person board like Chess with a miniature board game like X-wing.

Yes you can. You can get by quite cheaply in X-Wing and you can spend a ton on a chess set. Both require at least 2 people to play, both have events and tournaments for them. They are completely comparable.

The mere fact you say they aren't, proves how weak your argument really is. You do not need a LGS for X-Wing to survive, anymore then you do for Chess to survive.

pen and paper RPGs that need a community of like minded players to be a sustainable business.

Pen and Paper RPG's have survived and thrived for decades without any sort of dedicated store to play them at. 40k has more issues, but a large part of that is the play space requirements, not everyone has a 3x6 foot table with terrain you need for that game and others like that. Neither being something that X-Wing needs.

Do LGS's offer something? Yes they do, and because of that I'm willing to support mine by buying some stuff from it.

However I simply can not buy as much there as I can online, and so when I'm buying 3+ ships of every ship in a given wave, and I can save $50-75 by going online, I will.

The fact that I play from time to time at my LGS which helps bring in and keep other people playing is also another way I support my LGS.

It is also important to remember just how surprised FFG was at how big this game was, immediately. They took the amount they thought they would need in their wildest dreams, and DOUBLED it. And you know what, it wasn't even close to enough. I want to say that originally, that FFG would've been very happy with 25% of the current sales. And again, the 1-2 punch of two VERY successful games in X-wing and Netrunner have had to force FFG to grow, quickly.

Not every company is looking for the next Magic or Heroclix. I would say, that many have much more reasonable expectations on what their games will sell.

You can't really compare a two person board like Chess with a miniature board game like X-wing.

Yes you can. You can get by quite cheaply in X-Wing and you can spend a ton on a chess set. Both require at least 2 people to play, both have events and tournaments for them. They are completely comparable.

The mere fact you say they aren't, proves how weak your argument really is. You do not need a LGS for X-Wing to survive, anymore then you do for Chess to survive.

pen and paper RPGs that need a community of like minded players to be a sustainable business.

Pen and Paper RPG's have survived and thrived for decades without any sort of dedicated store to play them at. 40k has more issues, but a large part of that is the play space requirements, not everyone has a 3x6 foot table with terrain you need for that game and others like that. Neither being something that X-Wing needs.

Please define what you mean by "getting by cheaply" with X-wing. Any serious player has invested more than just the base set. This isn't chess where you can buy one board with pieces and be set for life because the game never changes. Without having local communities that play together at a common store then this game at the business end would simply not be sustainable.

The same is true for other specialty games like Warhammer and pen and paper RPGs. Have you never been to a local game and watched just how many RPG events and groups meet there? Without that exact customer base to sell product to pen and paper RPGs would have died back in the 80's.

You are trying to argue that this game and others like it could do just as well without local stores and communities and it is absolutely not true. The entire genre of specialty games would not be a feasible business plan without local stores and communities. If you disagree with that then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

But again, FFG's original expectations where much, much smaller than the current sales. For a community this size, yes, the local store is vital. But for the size FFG was originally looking at, not necessarily. I think there are plenty of players who are content to just stick with Wave 1-3.

I still play Heroscape on a fairly regular basis, but then again, I've never had any interest in playing anything competitively, X-wing, Magic, Armada, Warhammer or otherwise. Just not for me, I don't want to get wrapped up in the meta game mentality. Just because a game is not longer played competitively doesn't mean its a dead game.

I'm deleting much of what I said, because there just isn't much point in this back and forth...

But in general are LGS nice? Yes they are. But that does not mean they shouldn't compete with online retailers in someway, or offer something that makes up for the increased price they are asking.

That is the whole point of this thread, and what I'm responding to.

They are not however required for this game to survive, any more than they were for RPG's to do so.