And there are some local stores that don't deserve the business.

I did mention this was a state taxation issue, not Federal Government.

And all states with a sales tax do have a use tax. I suppose it's technically true that the two don't have to go together, but as a matter of practice they historically have.

Yes. That's the dirty little secret that legislatures hid from people until online shopping gouged a big hole in all that tax revenue and they had to start enforcing the use tax provisions. They didn't want people to have to file use taxes, because when you do it in one lump sum at the end of the year, you realize just how much you're paying for buying stuff.

If you think you're avoiding sales taxes by buying online, you're probably doing it wrong. Just Google your state and "sales and use tax."

That's funny, because I've never had anyone from the state of Washington come by to try and collect use tax, and neither has anyone that I know. And I've been shopping online now for quite some time.

That's funny, because I've never had anyone from the state of Washington come by to try and collect use tax, and neither has anyone that I know.

It's supposed to be done when you file your state taxes.

Any serious player has invested more than just the base set.

Yes you can get by fairly cheaply, like say a HSF list, which is both cheap and competitive. Just like you can get by with a cheap chess set, but anyone who takes the game seriously won't stop there. They'll get a nice one, and a travel kit, and a clock, and spend money on books, ect... So once again the comparison holds true.

Without having local communities that play together at a common store then this game at the business end would simply not be sustainable.

You don't need a store to make a community, there has been chess clubs and poker clubs for years and years, without needing a store to host them. RPG's have been doing the same thing since the late 70's... Long before there was such a thing as a game store.

Have you never been to a local game and watched just how many RPG events and groups meet there?

Next to none around here. Most LGS aren't suitable for serious RPG's because there's too much noise and distraction.

You are trying to argue that this game and others like it could do just as well without local stores and communities and it is absolutely not true.

As well? Perhaps not, but there's a huge space between as well and going out of business. Again, RPG's have not only survived but thrived for decades without specialty stores.

So once again, LGS are not required. They are nice, and no doubt help, but there is miles between required and helpful.

Finally I will point out again why your statement, the one that started this is incorrect despite your claims to the contrary, namely "Buying everything online is not in your best interest long term."

There are plenty of people out there for whom, the L in LGS means an hour+. Those people may travel there for special events, but buy all their stuff online, because driving that far simply isn't feasible. So for them not only is it their best interest long term, it's their only option.

That statement is still correct. If the only players for this game had no local stores and thus no means of having a place to play on a reliable schedule then the game itself would be dead. So if it is possible to buy local then spending some of your money there would in fact help the long term health and growth of the game. I don't think that is an inspired leap of deductive logic.

I don't know where you live but every place I've lived or visited that I frequented the LGS has several RPG groups and events going. They also have a large Magic crowd as well as wargamers into Warhammer, Hordes, Warmachine, etc. This in addition to X-wing. I played RPGs for years in the local gaming store in the town I used to live near to that I mentioned before. We were, I assure you, serious RPG players. Go look at popular RPGs forums and sites and you will see how important LGS are to those games.

This is a specialty game that needs a community of people willing to pay extra. This is why your attempts to compare this to games like poker or chess simply fail to connect. You don't need a store to play with a deck of cards you can buy for what 2 bucks and have a reasonable expectation that enough people the world over have ever once played some kind of traditional card game with. You won't find that at your house for a specialty game like X-wing.

That's funny, because I've never had anyone from the state of Washington come by to try and collect use tax, and neither has anyone that I know.

It's supposed to be done when you file your state taxes.

Washington State doesn't have a state income tax.

You'll find (if you bother to look) that there are tons and tons of miniature games that survive just fine without being sold at an LGS (every historical wargame ever, Malifaux, Infinity, Combat Zone, Tomorrow's War, Future War Commander, Two Hour Wargames titles, Necromunda, Mordheim, Blood Bowl, Song of Blades and Heroes, etc...). A game isn't dead as long as there are people playing it, and because internet stores are out there people are able to find stuff to play with.

If the only players for this game had no local stores and thus no means of having a place to play on a reliable schedule then the game itself would be dead.

You are once again wrong, because there's plenty of games out there that don't get sold at LGS and are doing just fine.

So if it is possible to buy local then spending some of your money there would in fact help the long term health and growth of the game.

Which is not what you said. Doing something and having that be positive does not mean, not doing it is negative.

Does spending money at my LGS help the local X-Wing community? Yes it does. Does not doing so mean the local X-Wing community would die? No it does not.

Go look at popular RPGs forums and sites and you will see how important LGS are to those games.

I've been playing RPG's for about as long as they've existed, and there has never been a need for a LGS to keep them going. I can ensure you that EN World for example does not rely on LGS to keep that site going.

Go look at popular RPGs forums and sites and you will see how important LGS are to those games.

I've been playing RPG's for about as long as they've existed, and there has never been a need for a LGS to keep them going. I can ensure you that EN World for example does not rely on LGS to keep that site going.

Most game stores in my experience didn't have local space to play until M:TG came out. That was also before the major miniature games, such as Warhammer were big, which no doubt had an effect.

If the only players for this game had no local stores and thus no means of having a place to play on a reliable schedule then the game itself would be dead.

You are once again wrong, because there's plenty of games out there that don't get sold at LGS and are doing just fine.

So if it is possible to buy local then spending some of your money there would in fact help the long term health and growth of the game.

Which is not what you said. Doing something and having that be positive does not mean, not doing it is negative.

Does spending money at my LGS help the local X-Wing community? Yes it does. Does not doing so mean the local X-Wing community would die? No it does not.

Go look at popular RPGs forums and sites and you will see how important LGS are to those games.

I've been playing RPG's for about as long as they've existed, and there has never been a need for a LGS to keep them going.

Your definition of "doing fine" is highly subjective and speculative. Games like Necromunda and Blood Bowl are sustained through the same company with far more popular games like Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. I have played RPGs and wargames since the mid 1980's. There's a distinct difference in gamers playing at LGS and some random people playing at home.

Buying at your LGS helps the game grow, you admit that much at least (which I might add invalidates effectively everything you've been arguing with me about) so choosing not to do so would in fact have the opposite effect. This is why I agreed with you before that LGS should try to remain competitive with online pricing. But it is not only in their vested interest to do so it is in our best interest as gamers to do so. It does not mean it is required, which I never said it was BTW, simply that it does better the long term impact of the game both at the business end and on the personal end as a gamer.

If you think this particular game would be doing fine and dandy without LGS then, as I believe I said before in another post, we will have to agree to disagree. There is a reason why small games with no support are exactly that: small games. I don't want X-wing to fall into the "Hey, remember Robotech?" category.

One thing I think always gets overlooked when this discussion comes up is this, let's compare CSI and MM to wal-mart. Where have all the mom and pop businesses gone? Away, driving savings down by selling more is very profitable from a business stand point, but where does it leave you as a community? If all the smaller stores continue to loose sales to online retailers then the only places left to play in store champs and regionals would be at the online stores location. While this might not bother those who live close to miniature market and such it would affect the number of places available to host store champs and such. That would be a fun season, what four or five regionals a year since the number of stores would dramatically decrease. This brings us to what it would do to sales since a large portion of the community is tournament/game nights at a store based. The sales would dwindle which would eventually lead to a drop of the game which would hamper the play at home crowd due to a lack of new options. The moral of the story is support your community and keep money invested there instead of hurting the your community. Where you spend your money affects what's around you in your daily life. If you want to plan a trip halfway across the country because it's the closet place to you in the handful regionals they are doing this year then buy all means keep sending your cash to make improvements in someone else's community.

What community?

What store championship?

What regional?

What store?

The thing that always gets forgotten in these "defense of FLGS" posts is that not all of us are lucky enough to have someplace close to go.

And I refuse to be guilted into driving HOURS to find someplace because you happen to be one of the lucky ones that does. I buy online and I pay less. If your store can't compete it's not my problem.

This is exactly my point. Why do you think you have to drive hours to get to a LGS? Could it possibly be because there is not one in your area because they didn't make enough cash flow to keep the doors open? I'm sure at some point in the last 25 years there was a comics and game store closer to you. That leads us to the question of where did the store go? I've seen all kinds of things happen in years of this hobby, my favorite though is when heroclix players which I was never one of wanted to keep playing at the local shop and have him run tournaments with prize support but do most of their purchases online. The store owner told them they could purchase through him or play on their kitchen table. They chose the latter, at the time he quit selling clix there were around 30 people playing at the shop, now the group has swelled to the astonishing number of 5 and there is still not a single clix to be found in the store. I'm sorry but whether you play in tournaments, on your kitchen table, or buy the ships because they look cool up on your shelf then it's all related to sales. If there is nowhere for people to gather and play then the options of new products dwindle and the game you so passionately love dies.

One thing I think always gets overlooked when this discussion comes up is this, let's compare CSI and MM to wal-mart. Where have all the mom and pop businesses gone? Away, driving savings down by selling more is very profitable from a business stand point, but where does it leave you as a community? If all the smaller stores continue to loose sales to online retailers then the only places left to play in store champs and regionals would be at the online stores location. While this might not bother those who live close to miniature market and such it would affect the number of places available to host store champs and such. That would be a fun season, what four or five regionals a year since the number of stores would dramatically decrease. This brings us to what it would do to sales since a large portion of the community is tournament/game nights at a store based. The sales would dwindle which would eventually lead to a drop of the game which would hamper the play at home crowd due to a lack of new options. The moral of the story is support your community and keep money invested there instead of hurting the your community. Where you spend your money affects what's around you in your daily life. If you want to plan a trip halfway across the country because it's the closet place to you in the handful regionals they are doing this year then buy all means keep sending your cash to make improvements in someone else's community.

What community?

What store championship?

What regional?

What store?

The thing that always gets forgotten in these "defense of FLGS" posts is that not all of us are lucky enough to have someplace close to go.

And I refuse to be guilted into driving HOURS to find someplace because you happen to be one of the lucky ones that does. I buy online and I pay less. If your store can't compete it's not my problem.

This is exactly my point. Why do you think you have to drive hours to get to a LGS? Could it possibly be because there is not one in your area because they didn't make enough cash flow to keep the doors open? I'm sure at some point in the last 25 years there was a comics and game store closer to you. That leads us to the question of where did the store go? I've seen all kinds of things happen in years of this hobby, my favorite though is when heroclix players which I was never one of wanted to keep playing at the local shop and have him run tournaments with prize support but do most of their purchases online. The store owner told them they could purchase through him or play on their kitchen table. They chose the latter, at the time he quit selling clix there were around 30 people playing at the shop, now the group has swelled to the astonishing number of 5 and there is still not a single clix to be found in the store. I'm sorry but whether you play in tournaments, on your kitchen table, or buy the ships because they look cool up on your shelf then it's all related to sales. If there is nowhere for people to gather and play then the options of new products dwindle and the game you so passionately love dies.

It is nice to see someone also sharing the correct view of this. I watched my beloved LGS die in a town once before because too many players bought all their products online but still wanted to play at the store. The owner simply couldn't afford to keep the doors open and almost all of those gamers completely quit playing their various games within a year afterwards because without the store as a central hub there was nowhere else to adequately play at.

so choosing not to do so would in fact have the opposite effect.

With such flawed logic, I'm just not going bother derailing this topic any further...

Why do you think you have to drive hours to get to a LGS? Could it possibly be because there is not one in your area because they didn't make enough cash flow to keep the doors open?

Do you honestly think everyone lives in a major city or close to one?

I'm fairly lucky that a game store happened to open up less than an hour away from my house, not because one was there and failed, but because I live in a small town an hour away from the Twin Cities. So there was never one there, because there wasn't enough people to support one.

There still isn't really, the LGS mostly stays open because the owner is willing to work a 2nd job, and they sell a bunch of other stuff there as well. It has nothing to do with people buying online, it has everything to do with the population density of the area.

Well look at it this way.

I just bought all of Wave 1 of Armada from Miniature Market for 190 USD, which according to Royal Bank Visa translates into 230 CAD.

Using the last wave of Xwing as a comparison.

Viper: USMSRP: 19.99 Canadian Sales Price: 22.99

M3A: USMSRP: 14.99 Canadian Sales Price: 17.49

Most Wanted: USMSRP: 39.99 Canadian Sales Price: 45.99

There is a new 15% markup because OPEC is screwing with oil production.

Armada that cost me 190 USD (230) through Miniature Market, would cost me: 376.85 CAD taxes in. Thats almost 150 dollars difference. I make a lot of money, but even I cannot justify that price mark up.

Normally I am all for buying from my LGS, and I have bought all my Xwing expansions, but not at the new prices (with new currency exchange compared to online.) I mean, I bought the entire wave 1 of Armada + an appeasement Coach handbag for my wife, for the same cost as buying the line from my LGs.

so choosing not to do so would in fact have the opposite effect.

With such flawed logic, I'm just not going bother derailing this topic any further...

Why do you think you have to drive hours to get to a LGS? Could it possibly be because there is not one in your area because they didn't make enough cash flow to keep the doors open?

Do you honestly think everyone lives in a major city or close to one?I'm fairly lucky that a game store happened to open up less than an hour away from my house, not because one was there and failed, but because I live in a small town an hour away from the Twin Cities. So there was never one there, because there wasn't enough people to support one.There still isn't really, the LGS mostly stays open because the owner is willing to work a 2nd job, and they sell a bunch of other stuff there as well. It has nothing to do with people buying online, it has everything to do with the population density of the area.

I grew up in a small town with a population of around 8000 when I was a kid and had a game and comic store 25 min Away, had three less than an hour away. So unless you are in a place that is using cows for traffic lights then a game store shouldn't be too far away. Just because they weren't running a store championship or regionals and were listed on this website doesn't mean that they don't exist. I have lived all over the southeast United States (where just for the record gaming isn't as big as up north and the Midwest) and have never been more than an hour away from a game store.

P.S. There are a lot of areas down here that aren't major cities. Sometimes you do have to get out and look though.

Why do you ascribe a failed game store to people buying online? In my experience, there have been far too many game stores opened by those with too little business sense. How many stores have you been to that the store was a mess? That the owners seemed more interested in their personal hobby than knowing basic customer service? I have seen too many stores that really should never have been opened to chalk all stores that went out of business to online sales. Is it a factor, sure. But it is hardly the leading factor.

I don't nor probably ever will play in a game store - I'm playing fairly regularly with other humans too - at my house, with my ships that I bought from Amazon. I'd much rather support the company that makes the game than the middle man. I've got enough friends that are interested in playing that are buying in too from Amazon or MM as well. Sorry FLGS, you just aren't my cup of tea.

So you buy MSRP from the FFG web store, right? Because buying from online retailers isn't supporting FFG any more or less than buyng from your LGS.

I have seen too many stores that really should never have been opened to chalk all stores that went out of business to online sales. Is it a factor, sure. But it is hardly the leading factor.

Like the one that was mentioned above...

If there's as many people playing there as was claimed, and he went out of business, then the fault was not online retailers, the fault was with the owner.

It wouldn't take much discount to get me to spend every dime at my LGS, 10-15% would do it, but I know that his profit is pretty small, and even that small of a discount wouldn't bring in enough money to really change anything. But as I said he subsidizes that store with his day time job.

I go to my Friendly Local Pub (FLP) frequently. They offer me something I can't get at home: a tasty meal that no one in my family has to spend time preparing; a gathering place for friends, which requires no one to clean up beforehand; a venue to join other people, united only by our passion for rooting for a favorite sports team on the televisions. The service is great, and they treat me, my family and my friends like valued customers - not repeat business they take for granted.

Because of these things, I gladly pay 3-4 times retail for beer what I would pay at the grocery store on the other side of the parking lot, and leave a generous tip. The experience they provide more than justifies the extra price - for me.

But I would not go on my neighborhood forum and propose forcing distributors to raise prices so grocery stores have to sell 6-packs for $25 and call out people for not drinking their beer in the FLP.

Your FLGS is like any other business. It has to provide a service that people value enough to pay for. They can play an instrumental role in creating a healthy gaming community. But there's nothing intrinsic to a LGS that makes them essential or always a net positive (I've seen my share of UFLGS).

I have seen too many stores that really should never have been opened to chalk all stores that went out of business to online sales. Is it a factor, sure. But it is hardly the leading factor.

Like the one that was mentioned above...If there's as many people playing there as was claimed, and he went out of business, then the fault was not online retailers, the fault was with the owner.It wouldn't take much discount to get me to spend every dime at my LGS, 10-15% would do it, but I know that his profit is pretty small, and even that small of a discount wouldn't bring in enough money to really change anything. But as I said he subsidizes that store with his day time job.

If this was in response to my story concerning heroclix then let me clarify, I never said the store went out of business, quite the opposite he has one of the largest Friday night magic tournament or whatever they are, ing area. He didn't go out of business what I said was absolutely no one but five people still play heroclix in this area. No game store to play in doesn't mean he closed. He chose to quit providing free place for people to play a game they bought online instead of in his store. I really don't understand how people connected the dots between me saying maybe a game store closed in his area and then the fact that I have seen what happens to a game when he kicked them out of store. Without a place to play for a large part of this community the game will suffer, even if you aren't one who plays in a store it would affect you.

I just wanted to chime in and say you definitely don't need an lgs to play a pen and paper rofe.

I had a group of 8 or so friends back in college who got together 2x times a week at jack in the box using books we bought from Barnes and noble or b Dalton...we did this for years never once setting foot in a game store and we played several different systems...they still play once a week or so though I am no longer involved.

That is the beauty of a pen and paper rpg...that's all you really need, pen paper and your imagination. While the lgs certainly might help it's definitely not necessary to that style of game. And flgs would have been to noisy anyway.

Best place to play was the spa in my backyard though...oh the nights of sitting in 90 degree plus water rolling dice and throwing our dm into the pool!!

Edit:spellin hate this phone...that's why I havers posted heavily recently.

Your definition of "doing fine" is highly subjective and speculative. Games like Necromunda and Blood Bowl are sustained through the same company with far more popular games like Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. I have played RPGs and wargames since the mid 1980's. There's a distinct difference in gamers playing at LGS and some random people playing at home.

Necromunda and Blood Bowl aren't sustained. Specialist Games is dead; people who are still playing them are either playing the PC version (for Blood Bowl) or making do with figures bought via auction, close enough ones from other manufacturers that are probably not stocked by many if any local stores, etc. Also, again, there are a lot of games out there that aren't offered in brick and mortars that do just fine, Historicon alone attests to that.

It's the players that keep games alive, not the stores.

Here's a wrinkle that I don't think anyone mentioned.

Does the sheer volume from Miniature Market, Cool Stuff and Barnes and Noble bring down the cost of X-Wing? Would FFG move as many units if everything was priced the same online and offline?

Without a doubt, deep discounts from online stores hurt your FLGS.

I did mention this was a state taxation issue, not Federal Government.

And all states with a sales tax do have a use tax. I suppose it's technically true that the two don't have to go together, but as a matter of practice they historically have.

Yes. That's the dirty little secret that legislatures hid from people until online shopping gouged a big hole in all that tax revenue and they had to start enforcing the use tax provisions. They didn't want people to have to file use taxes, because when you do it in one lump sum at the end of the year, you realize just how much you're paying for buying stuff.

If you think you're avoiding sales taxes by buying online, you're probably doing it wrong. Just Google your state and "sales and use tax."

That's funny, because I've never had anyone from the state of Washington come by to try and collect use tax, and neither has anyone that I know. And I've been shopping online now for quite some time.

It's one of those things that you are probably skating under the radar on, and, true, probably won't be caught on.

But if you DO ever find yourself in a regular tax audit, and they DO find evidence that you have skipped paying a few thousands of dollars in use taxes over the years...you may rest assured they will happily drill you for all of that, and the (entirely possible) tens of thousands of dollars in penalties you owe as a result of tax dodging.

You can argue the point all you want, but I provided you the link, for your state, proving that you owe this. You can continue to ignore paying it if you want, but at least you can't claim ignorance as a defense (not like it's a valid defense anyway). You ARE breaking the law when you fail to pay sufficient use taxes (equal to your local sales taxes) on your out-of-state purchases. And if you get caught (granted, it's not super likely so far, although even that is changing), you WILL be penalized extremely heavily.

Up to you what to do with that information.

I did mention this was a state taxation issue, not Federal Government.

And all states with a sales tax do have a use tax. I suppose it's technically true that the two don't have to go together, but as a matter of practice they historically have.

Yes. That's the dirty little secret that legislatures hid from people until online shopping gouged a big hole in all that tax revenue and they had to start enforcing the use tax provisions. They didn't want people to have to file use taxes, because when you do it in one lump sum at the end of the year, you realize just how much you're paying for buying stuff.

If you think you're avoiding sales taxes by buying online, you're probably doing it wrong. Just Google your state and "sales and use tax."

That's funny, because I've never had anyone from the state of Washington come by to try and collect use tax, and neither has anyone that I know. And I've been shopping online now for quite some time.

It's one of those things that you are probably skating under the radar on, and, true, probably won't be caught on.

But if you DO ever find yourself in a regular tax audit, and they DO find evidence that you have skipped paying a few thousands of dollars in use taxes over the years...you may rest assured they will happily drill you for all of that, and the (entirely possible) tens of thousands of dollars in penalties you owe as a result of tax dodging.

You can argue the point all you want, but I provided you the link, for your state, proving that you owe this. You can continue to ignore paying it if you want, but at least you can't claim ignorance as a defense (not like it's a valid defense anyway). You ARE breaking the law when you fail to pay sufficient use taxes (equal to your local sales taxes) on your out-of-state purchases. And if you get caught (granted, it's not super likely so far, although even that is changing), you WILL be penalized extremely heavily.

Up to you what to do with that information.

Here's what North Carolina tried to do.

http://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-fights-demand-for-customer-records/

Amazon.com filed a lawsuit on Monday to fend off a sweeping demand from North Carolina's tax collectors: detailed records including names and addresses of customers and information about exactly what they purchased.

Thankfully for all the Use Tax dodgers in the state, Amazon fought them off. And then Amazon agreed to start collecting sales tax.

The truth is, the state governments really don't want to put the money and resources into auditing every individual citizen who bought stuff online. The cost really exceeds the benefit. That's why they like the retailer-based sales tax system. But if they get an easy tip (like if you were to say, I don't know, brag on a public forum about not paying taxes on thousands of dollars of online purchases every year), they might figure it's worth the payoff.

That's funny, because I've never had anyone from the state of Washington come by to try and collect use tax, and neither has anyone that I know.

It's supposed to be done when you file your state taxes.

Washington State doesn't have a state income tax.

I think you should just call the Washington DOR and get some clarification for us.

I found the number - it's 1-800-647-7706.

Explain that you are having a discussion on the Internet with a bunch of buffoons who think the law requires you to pay a use tax on the stuff you've bought online, and you want to definitively prove them wrong. Make sure to give them your name and address first.