We've had this come up in our local group, and I've seen some do it on some of the online videos. Our group is split on the rule for this.

Is it legal to estimate your ship's location on the play area by using your fingers and touching the play space? All template are left off the play space and aren't used in the process in any way. Could you, for example, move your ship and then put your finger down where you expect to end up after boosting or rolling? Can you use your thumb and index finger to estimate how far you will move after a boost, again you aren't presetting the length of a 1 straight between your fingers with the template before you do this.

Are you allowed to estimate on the play space with just your fingers and your own reckoning where you expect to end up after a move, roll, or boost?

We've had this come up in our local group, and I've seen some do it on some of the online videos. Our group is split on the rule for this.

Is it legal to estimate your ship's location on the play area by using your fingers and touching the play space? All template are left off the play space and aren't used in the process in any way. Could you, for example, move your ship and then put your finger down where you expect to end up after boosting or rolling? Can you use your thumb and index finger to estimate how far you will move after a boost, again you aren't presetting the length of a 1 straight between your fingers with the template before you do this.

Are you allowed to estimate on the play space with just your fingers and your own reckoning where you expect to end up after a move, roll, or boost?

It would depend on how much "measuring" was being done. Someone estimating where their move would put them and then putting their finger on the spot and looking around to see if it looks like that spot is clear of arcs is totally different from someone using their fingers as measuring tools to determine exactly where they will land.

I'd say any version of this that's useful probably isn't legal.

If you calibrate your measurement using the templates--which you're not suggesting--the "no pre-measuring maneuvers" rule is pretty clearly in play. It's almost certainly legal if you're not referencing the templates in any way, but it's no more accurate than estimating in your head and it telegraphs your plans to your opponent.

This is a really good example of what I'm asking about. See what Dallas Parker (on the left running imps) does when he considers boosting or rolling. There are some good examples around the 22 and 35 minute marks. At the 35 minute mark he is considering where Fel will go after a roll, and even looks like he is considering where Keyan will go after his next turn.

Does anyone thing that is illegal?

Here's everything the rules say about it...

During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

From the FAQ

Players may only measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc at the following times:

It then goes on to describe those times.

There really is no general 'you can't pre-measure' rule, rather you are only allowed to measure when a rule or ability allows you to do so. There are plenty of times you can measure ahead of time, because you can do that for boost, barrel roll, decloak when playing standard rules. You can also measure things when checking for TL. You can measure before making an attack as well. So there are times when you can pre-measure. It's just that making a maneuver isn't one of those times.

That said, the "they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads." part seems to say that you can't use anything to check for measurements when plotting maneuvers.

Here's everything the rules say about it...

During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

From the FAQ

Players may only measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc at the following times:

It then goes on to describe those times.

There really is no general 'you can't pre-measure' rule, rather you are only allowed to measure when a rule or ability allows you to do so. There are plenty of times you can measure ahead of time, because you can do that for boost, barrel roll, decloak when playing standard rules. You can also measure things when checking for TL. You can measure before making an attack as well. So there are times when you can pre-measure. It's just that making a maneuver isn't one of those times.

That said, the "they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads." part seems to say that you can't use anything to check for measurements when plotting maneuvers.

So then, what was happening in the video was illegal? I tend to think it's just fine, but that's me and I could easily be wrong.

This is a really good example of what I'm asking about. See what Dallas Parker (on the left running imps) does when he considers boosting or rolling. There are some good examples around the 22 and 35 minute marks. At the 35 minute mark he is considering where Fel will go after a roll, and even looks like he is considering where Keyan will go after his next turn.

Do anyone thing that is illegal?

No, it looks fine to me. Again, I'm not sure how useful it is to him--maybe he's better at estimating distances with his fingers than I am?--but it's almost certainly legal.

There really is no general 'you can't pre-measure' rule, rather you are only allowed to measure when a rule or ability allows you to do so. There are plenty of times you can measure ahead of time, because you can do that for boost, barrel roll, decloak when playing standard rules. You can also measure things when checking for TL. You can measure before making an attack as well. So there are times when you can pre-measure. It's just that making a maneuver isn't one of those times.

That said, the "they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads." part seems to say that you can't use anything to check for measurements when plotting maneuvers.

I'd say that if you were (say) using a piece of string marked off with the correct distances for each maneuver, you'd still be violating the rule that you can't pre-measure for maneuvers. Adjusting your thumb and forefinger to the length of the template and then putting them on the table would fall into the same category, for me.

But as long as no one is doing that--if all that's happening is me putting my hands on the table, frowning, and thinking--then it's really hard to argue that anything illegal is happening.

So then, what was happening in the video was illegal?

I think that's going to depend greatly on what the TO allows or if the other guy has problems. It's kind of a gray area, the rules quite clearly state you can't use the templates to measure.

If I know that my middle and index finger are 1 forward, am I really estimating in my head? On the other hand if I know a boost is about *this* big, and spread my fingers that far, am I really measuring or is it estimating?

It is IMO something best left up to the TO to deal with.

In one tournament I played at, one player was using the width of his four fingers to measure where his ships would move to. I didn't realize at the time what he was doing, but after it looked like it was pretty close to a definite range 1 distance.

So then, what was happening in the video was illegal?

I think that's going to depend greatly on what the TO allows or if the other guy has problems. It's kind of a gray area, the rules quite clearly state you can't use the templates to measure.

If I know that my middle and index finger are 1 forward, am I really estimating in my head? On the other hand if I know a boost is about *this* big, and spread my fingers that far, am I really measuring or is it estimating?

It is IMO something best left up to the TO to deal with.

I'm not a fan of that answer. If we leave it up to the TO to deal with, then we have an inconsistent ruleset. What if the TO at a Regional Event says it's ok, but at another Regional Event a different TO says it's not allowed. I don't have any issues with it if an opponent does it, but I would hate to have an opponent get upset if I did it.

FFG, if you are listening, please clarify this for us.

I think we're talking about two different things here.

If you're using your fingers to measure - I know my index finer is. 2 ahead long and put it next to my ship - I think that's clearly measuring, and wrong. But then again, I thought abusing the target lock mechanic to put a ruler down and measure was clearly measuring and wrong, but that's legal. So who knows for sure? I'd still rule against it myself though.

If you're putting down a finer to visualize where a ship will land, I'm less sure about that. It's not actually measuring anything, just marking a point. I tend to think that's legal because of that, but again, who knows? FFG is apparently terrified of actually truly clarifying this whole issue, so we keep guessing.

If we leave it up to the TO to deal with, then we have an inconsistent ruleset.

X-wing's rule set is inconsistent. I hate that, and rail against it daily, but it's the truth that we have to live with.

If you're concerned about it, either because you want to do it or want to shut down anyone else who does, Vanor is exactly right. Check with the TO before the event. IMHO it actually matters less that the game is perfectly consistent between events than it does that there are no drama-inducing surprise rulings during an event.

I'm not a fan of that answer.

You can email FFG and ask them about it. I don't know if they'll answer, they're normally pretty good but I sent 2 or 3 emails to them that never got an answer, but it seems a number of people have gotten answer recently...

There's no really clear cut answer per the rules. So that means it has to be something a TO deals with until/unless FFG produces something in the FAQ that deals with things like this.

The answer to your question all comes down to how people are going to define "measuring" because there is a HUGE range of opinions in there.

At one end you have measuring solely defined as dropping a template/range ruler on the table and seeing where that ends up.

At the other end you have some who might say looking at the table cross-eyed is measuring and is against the rules.

Personally, I find most of this anti-measurement stuff to be complete BS. I can see pre-measuring being disallowed because it can eat up so much time if someone were to go and start needing to check every possible movement using the templates. The sad thing is that it then opens up all of these thing that may or may not be 'measuring' where people are trying to get the same information; the harder any type of measuring gets the longer it can take which seems to defeat the purpose when the game already has near perfect information about where a maneuver should land.

Wouldn't the whole "they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads" part of the rules make this a clear cut question?

Touching the table is not in your head. Therefore not legal.

Not saying I'd enforce this, but if someone wanted to be a stickler for rules in a competitive event, the rules seem to disallow it...

I'd say no. It's attempting to measure, and any sort of measuring when you aren't supposed to isn't legal. I'd certainly not allow it if I were seeing someone doing it

and any sort of measuring when you aren't supposed to isn't legal.

But if you're really good at judging distances, isn't that the same thing?

If I can look at something and say it's X inches away from something else, and be with in a 32nd of an inch every time. How is this really any different then spreading my fingers X inches apart and putting them on the table.

In both cases I'm estimating the distance, in my head, because I'm not using an external measuring device.

and any sort of measuring when you aren't supposed to isn't legal.

But if you're really good at judging distances, isn't that the same thing?

If I can look at something and say it's X inches away from something else, and be with in a 32nd of an inch every time. How is this really any different then spreading my fingers X inches apart and putting them on the table.

In both cases I'm estimating the distance, in my head, because I'm not using an external measuring device.

Re-read the rule: "they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads"

Anything in their head is legal.

Fingers on the table are not "in their head" for any reasonable definition of "in their head".

Oh, come on, that's cheating what you can see in this video. I run all kinds of tournaments in Germany, big and small, with beginners and german champions,and I've never seen anything like that.

I think it's bad form to touch the play area when contemplating moves (maneuvers, boosts, barrel rolls, decloaks). I think the "in their heads" rule is relevant here.

I don't like what that player's doing in the video, since I do find it useful to do that but refrain from it because of (what I believe to be) the rule forbidding it.

100% illegal in my book

Bwaahaaa! You just made be squirt milk out my nose... And I wasn't even drinking milk

You're going to want to have a doctor look at that.

Yeah, there is no way that type of behavior is consistent with a ruleset that doesn't allow premeasuring of manuvers. Specifically because the rules are explicit that any estimations are to be done in a players head. The second you start putting your hands on the board attempting to map out distances with them there is no way you can call that doing anything in one's head.

Oh, come on, that's cheating what you can see in this video. I run all kinds of tournaments in Germany, big and small, with beginners and german champions,and I've never seen anything like that.

That's no fair comparing Germans to anyone other than maybe the Swiss when talking about precision is it?

I don't think Texx's opponent is going to lodge a complaint, I saw him doing the same type of thing a number of times in that video, including doing some right angle stuff with his hands to figure out where his facing was going to end up.

While I do not have an official email response, when I was playing at Gencon, I was putting my fingers hovering over the table to visualize a barrel roll. My opponent called me out for it, and I said that it was totally legal since I wasn't using any templates. Alex Davy came over and gave the ruling that it was illegal and considered pre-measuring even though I wasn't using the template.