Hello,

Even as my first post, this idea here is not likely going to be considered popular.

That said, I would still like constructive feedback and what not, including alternate ideas for how to approach the issue. Due to the state that DW 1e is in currently, I noticed some time back that for example:

A Space Wolf or Blood Angel would have two Specialties: Assault Marine, and then one of their choice. Ultramarines and Dark Angels would both be Tacticals, and then one Spec of their choice. Storm Wardens and Black Templars I have yet to figure out. The problem is that at the core, to best reflect the tabletop feel of RP'ing a "proper" Astartes of any sort, one seems to require two Specialties, one from the character's Chapter, one from the player's choice.

I will state that the Chapter advances table only applies once.

So, despite the wordiness here, an example is below:

Character Rolf

Chapter: Space Wolves

Available Advances Tables:

- General Rank 1

- SW Rank 1

- DW Rank 1

- Assault Marine Rank 1 (Chapter Battle Doctrine, as an example)

- Tactical Marine Rank 1 (Personal Battle Doctrine)

- Increase in XP to reflect the need to balance around a new area being part of character advancement.

After much thought on the issue, I always seem to return to the fact that what is missing from DW is that only Assault Marines can do what both SW's and Blood Angels excel at: close combat.

Doing this doubles the XP involved for the players, nearly; the issue is, the idea clearly needs improvement, as well as feedback.

Thoughts?

After much thought on the issue, I always seem to return to the fact that what is missing from DW is that only Assault Marines can do what both SW's and Blood Angels excel at: close combat.

Well, this would be a fact for many chapters. But i think you might focus a bit too much on combat style, SW and BA have way more characteristics that describe the essence of their chapter, and that's what the chapter table, the demeanor and the chapter bonuses are for. For exampe, besides close combat, SW's are quite famous for their good senses, and I think this characteristic is represented quite well.

But I also understand why you think this way, because in DW ( especially in the beginning/at low rank ) it often feels like everyone except Assaults is just to weak in close combat, but this gets better with higher ranks. Besides, there is still the possibility of elite advancements.

After much thought on the issue, I always seem to return to the fact that what is missing from DW is that only Assault Marines can do what both SW's and Blood Angels excel at: close combat.

Well, this would be a fact for many chapters. But i think you might focus a bit too much on combat style, SW and BA have way more characteristics that describe the essence of their chapter, and that's what the chapter table, the demeanor and the chapter bonuses are for. For exampe, besides close combat, SW's are quite famous for their good senses, and I think this characteristic is represented quite well.

But I also understand why you think this way, because in DW ( especially in the beginning/at low rank ) it often feels like everyone except Assaults is just to weak in close combat, but this gets better with higher ranks. Besides, there is still the possibility of elite advancements.

I can see both of your points, however, as a previous SW player in both DW and on tabletop, it always seems odd that the SW's and BA's don't feel close combat ish in DW at low ranks.

Elite advances can help somewhat mitigate this issue, it's just a very absent set of capabilities therein as far as how things seem to be not translating between tabletop and DW RPG.

I do however greatly appreciate the SW senses and Demeanors, as they greatly reward how those that truly play the Chapter with knowledge of how they function.

As far as how to handle this going forward, what all is your impression of the example above for other Chapters?

SW 2nd Spec: Assault

BA 2nd Spec: Assault

DA 2nd Spec: Tactical or Devastator?

UM 2nd Spec: Tactical

BT 2nd Spec: Assault or Tactical?

StW 2nd Spec: Devastator or Tactical?

Then there's all the other chapters out there...

Honestly, I feel like the DW system is a terrible representation of how Marines work anyways. It's a fun game (Hell, I'm currently running it, and my players and I are having fun. But I do think it has some MAJOR faults. And wish it were more like OW or DH2e)

Namely, a Deathwatch Marine should -probably- be someone who has gone through their chapter's full training regimen. So for a Codex Chapter, this would mean you've already gone through every stage - Scout -> Assault ->Devastator ->Tactical (Or was it Dev then Assault?).

So that said, I do like this idea, though almost feel doing a simple Aptitude system might be best. though if you prefer the 'ranks' for ease of balancing encounters purposes (So you know a marine won't have Lightning attack at CG, for instance), I can see this being a good idea.

I don't think this is necessarily true - a Chapter could just as well be represented as a simple background package or homeworld origin like it works in most of the other games. Why is Deathwatch the only RPG where your homeworld confers extra tables? Is the difference between Ultramarines and Black Templars really supposed to be that much bigger than the difference between a Necromundan hiver and an Asgardian barbarian ...? I think not.

I can see why FFG chose this way - they likely believed that the Chapter ought to play a major role in the character's identity, which is true, except for the fact that the very same should apply to how homeworld shapes, say, an Only War Guardsman. Thus, I perceived DW's approach to Chapters as unnecessarily complex, if not to say cluttering. It's actually one of the chief reasons for why I still haven't finished my fan-supplement.

In combination with Dulahan's remark on progression this could also fix your issue about your Space Wolf's close combat capabilities, in that the Chapter bonuses that make characters from that organisation stand out in a specific field would be applied to anyone and be active right from the beginning of a campaign.

The only problem is that the usual (as presented in most of the sources) progression of Space Marines does not work well when applied to an RPG, because it'd effectively mean that a character who chooses to play a Tactical Marine ought to already have many of the same Skills and Talents that a dedicated Assault Marine player would still have to work towards, simply because the Tactical is more experienced. It's as if you'd let people start at different levels. I can see why FFG did not do that.

On the other hand, there was the alternative of just letting everyone play a Tactical Marine like how the Deathwatch operates in GW's own books, and letting people specialise freely by letting them choose from a shared list of Skills and Talents. This actually plays into Only War and DH2 in that you could use Aptitudes to differentiate the characters and lay the foundations for their eventual path - after all, regardless of going through the same training, some of them will be better at X than others, right? Perhaps a thought for DW2, if there ever will be such a thing.

Oh, and .. welcome to the forums.

So, I'm pondering trying to make DW have a Dark Heresy 2e, or Only War style CG and advancement schema, just... running into some hurdles. Mainly, because I hate how 1e does it, but have players loving playing it.

Now, to be fair. I understand that DW Specialty (as is) should represent what you're good at, not what you literally are. But I feel that since they're using actual unit names, it's a bit misleading. Also, starting barely more than Raw Recruits makes characters seem weaker than most DW marines probably would be.

Anyways. So this is why I prefer, conceptually, the idea of Aptitudes and customized characters. So instead of -having- to make a Tac Marine to get easy (non-gm permission elite advances) access to Leadership and suf, I could make a Melee specialist leader, or whatever. It's just what I like. Again, I fully understand that technically, the Specialties aren't exactly what they say, I just don't like the design, and would prefer a more freeform thing.

Further, the Only War style regimental creation would just be PERFECT for making Marine chapter of choice. And a DH2e style one for your Marine's focus.

Honestly, I feel an ideal way to make the Marines masters of war, is ALL Marines should get a WS and BS aptitude out of the gate. It's part of the implant process and initial training or whatever. Then, chapter gives an Aptitude or two as well. Which might even be Melee (Or Ranged). Naturally, there is one weakness here, how do we then let the 'third' choice affect you?

This would naturally be a perfect way to represent how some chapters focus more on one form of warfare than others (Space Wolves and Blood Angels in Melee, for instance), making so even the non-Melee specialized sorts at least have cheaper access to melee talents and WS raises. Add that on top of other elements to make a Marine, instead of a 'type'.

But then why would I then choose a Melee focused 'third' choice if I'm a Blood Angel, when I already got it from the chapter - unless it twinks me out so much that other than a thematic reason they're no reason not to choose a Melee chapter for a melee marine. Admittedly, getting other aptitudes probably would be part of this. It's a matter of how many aptitudes to get though. And other abilities.

But I do think that a good opening book would, for me, have -all- the founding 8 loyalist chapters, and a few other famous ones (Storm Wardens, naturally, being the FFG chapter! Crimson Fists. Black Templars. Any others?). This just because having at least the founders represented does open up a lot more. but it's definitely a lot of word count.

Even better would be more chapters, just with a note the culture and further details would be done later, these are just included so that those who know the theme or had 1e can hit the ground running with a favored chapter. (Even if it is just a table of 30 or whatever chapters and their Aptitudes for now!)


Heck, even the process of writing this was me thinking of how I might convert this for my players... and realizing it is harder than I can manage. As there are things I like that make this harder to do on my own:


Codex Abilities. These get... complicated. Not because of what they are, but vis a vis what I'd love from a 2e based more on OW and DH2e. Because so many good chapters would be left out for a year or two before we'd even have the rules with a change. Especially Squad and Solo Mode, and Psychic Powers style stuff, which is more appropriate in 1e.

Though thinking further, for a 'cribbed' conversion I might do for my Players. These could remain. It's mostly CG and Advancement I care about, not the rest. So these should remain relative. and 'ranks' being total experience is easy enough to keep too. But it is still a lot of work to figure out tiers and the right aptitudes.

*raises hand*

Honestly, I feel an ideal way to make the Marines masters of war, is ALL Marines should get a WS and BS aptitude out of the gate. It's part of the implant process and initial training or whatever.

Why?

I think WS and BS would make ideal aptitudes to differentiate between player characters focused on ranged and melee. It seems like a waste to give them to everyone in a game where any player characters will be Space Marines, anyways, so it's not like you are "competing" against other types of PCs. And even if you were, I'd argue that what makes the Space Marines "masters of war" is not a universal aptitude of their warriors (because that is not what they are recruited for - see below), but rather the amount of Skills and Talents they learn, combined with their physical augmentation, wargear and supreme adaptability (which is just a result of them learning so much, though).

The way I see it, aptitudes cannot get "implanted" or "learned" like Skills and Talents. Aptitudes are something you either have or you don't, based on parental genetics as well as what you did as a child before being recruited (in a process that prioritises geneseed compatibility before actually getting "the best of the best", i.e. those who may have both aptitudes).

Splitting WS and BS will ultimately lead to far greater variety among the squad. If that is what you want.

That said, I agree that Only War might be an ideal candidate to work from as a foundation. However, I would probably keep aptitudes out of Chapter bonuses (as you would see a lot of repetition real quick, if you think about it), and instead focus on starter Skills/Talents as well as perhaps one or two truly unique special rules, written specifically for the Chapter in question. For example, Black Templars getting an increased bonus to resistance against psychic attacks, but also not benefiting as much from friendly psykers.

Because I feel other stuff, like Talents and the likes will be where the differentiation comes from. the Space Marines are the masters of war. All war. It's right there in the fluff, it's not that a Blood Angel isn't capable of being as terrifying a marksman as a Smurf. This gives us the opportunity to differentiate afterwards. All marines are Warriors first, whatever else second. Doesn't matter if they're tech marines, apothecaries, tactical, librarians, or whatever. (Indeed, most chapters, the Tech and Apoths come through tactical first too!). So it makes sense they never pay more than 500 to raise those two stats. They're the most generally used by Marines.

Plus it makes it far easier to get the second related aptitude from your personal pool, as it were. Mostly, the reason is that a Marine -should- have at least 1 related aptitude for those two, no matter what. the second either coming from Chapter (though I like your idea that Chapter shouldn't give aptitudes), or personal 'role' in DH2e terms. And I would specifically define 'role' as the skillset that brought you to the attention of the Deathwatch.

Okay, apparently this is simply a difference in interpretations and directional approach, then.

The way I see it, you are risking a lot of overlap, when it is specialisation that makes players feel unique and splits up "moments of awesome" equally between different members of the team (dependent on situational circumstances) instead of having them compete for the limelight every turn due to everyone being equally good at shooting and hacking. And aptitudes are a great way of outlining different paths for the players to pursue, still providing the freedom to buy every advance the game offers (thus offering to become a "master of all war" if they survive long enough and gain sufficient experience) whilst at the same time forcing them to pay a price to become Jaqs-of-All-Trades.

Ultimately, having an aptitude for something does not make you a "master", actually having the skills and abilities does. And if everyone in your squad is a "master", what do they still need XP for?

I do see what you're trying to do, it's just "my mileage" that it sounds like putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. What exactly are you trying to prevent, other than some Marines - either due to genetics, childhood or mindset - being inherently better suited to learn shooting or hacking than others, which sounds fairly realistic to me from a background PoV, and would allow specialists to better stand out as experts from a gameplay PoV? I mean, if you think their BS/WS characteristics may be too low in general, just let them start at a higher value. They're not clones, they do not all have to have the exact same characteristics.

Keep in mind, I’m not saying they should have two related to both traits, just one. But isn’t there both the Characteristic and the Skill ‘aptitude’? Because I’m just saying they get the Characteristic one, to help give discounts on anything battle related. They still need to make a second choice somewhere to get that second one that makes them available at the cheapest cost. That’s where the differences will start to fall into place.

Essentially, if they don’t take that second choice somewhere, BS and WS will be 500 XP for the first raise. Those who get the second one then have the 250 option. (With similar talent bits)

People who take Tech Marine? Apothecary? Librarian? They probably aren’t getting that second one in CG, unless it is part of the chapter. When it makes sense. And again, we definitely agree on preferring Chapter to give something else than an Aptitude. A Melee sort will probably gravitate towards the choice that gives the second one. Likewise the Shooty types the other side.

To a certain extent, this isn’t too different from Raw. Assault would have the second one related to WS and melee talent raises. Devastators to Shooty stuff. Tactical to Fellowship. And so on. And I don’t feel this would lead to saminess either, people are going to focus on a preferred combat style and talents and stick to those, and we all know the Talents are where the differences really start to shine through.

It’s also pretty relevant for a combat centric game like Deathwatch to have these.

I'm beginning to see where this is going, and I'm getting interested in your approach. One of our GM's thought about a mixed OW/DW game, and this might be quite interesting(afaik he thought about going this way, too). Maybe if you try to flesh this out a bit we have a base for a better discussion.

Well, I imagine one of the first things to go with is the choices. And ideally, we know the 'choice tree' works when it can be used to create any of the existing chapters in a way people can see. (Not a they are currently. Just in the fashion that any chapter that we use as examples can be reverse engineered with the Chapter Creation Tree - so no cheating and making the Blood Angels or Smurfs something special snowflakey that can't be emulated with the chapter creation rules)

From there, do we make the Marine's favored style/type a single choice? Or maybe go through a DH2e choice matrix too?

For the former, naturally we can use the existing custom chapter rules as a base...

I'd suggest the first choice be "Founder" each of the "Founding" legions is the choice, essentially, your geneseed base. With an Unknown option to round it out and also represent the possible 'spliced' chapters or those descended from loyalist traitor legions. This would keep the 'flavor' of them all in place, but we should have 'opt out' of traditional founder stylings available at some point too.

Second might be Codex/Mostly Codex/Non-Codex - Perhaps with each of those having some sub-choices that represent differing iterations? Like Mostly Codex might have something like 'greater concentration of Devastators' or something

Where I really question is if we should have the individual's spec be a part of this entire stage, or a separate set of choices. While I like the idea of flexibility. Spess Mehrens have this annoying fact that some of them ARE splatty, but some aren't. As we certainly need entry points for Tech Marines, Apothecaries, and Librarians. We might even want one for Chaplains (though this I can see being more of an elite advance) and any Chapter specific roles.

On the other hand, leaving this very... simple makes the Chapter specific stuff easier to represent by a basic choice or two.

If we do have 'roles' - my thought would, instead of the current Assault, Tactical, etc. Instead be: Melee, Heavy Weapons, Command, Scout (a full Marine DOES lead Scouts! This might double as Sniper). It's a subtle difference for sure, but I feel better reflects that an Astartes does go through 4 divisions in training. Then we also have Machine Cult, Apothecary, Librarian. - I could also see a 'Support' option being viable, for the flamer/shotgun/plasma/whatever sorts, which could be the other place we could slot in sniper.

Well, I imagine one of the first things to go with is the choices. And ideally, we know the 'choice tree' works when it can be used to create any of the existing chapters in a way people can see. (Not a they are currently. Just in the fashion that any chapter that we use as examples can be reverse engineered with the Chapter Creation Tree - so no cheating and making the Blood Angels or Smurfs something special snowflakey that can't be emulated with the chapter creation rules)

From there, do we make the Marine's favored style/type a single choice? Or maybe go through a DH2e choice matrix too?

For the former, naturally we can use the existing custom chapter rules as a base...

I'd suggest the first choice be "Founder" each of the "Founding" legions is the choice, essentially, your geneseed base. With an Unknown option to round it out and also represent the possible 'spliced' chapters or those descended from loyalist traitor legions. This would keep the 'flavor' of them all in place, but we should have 'opt out' of traditional founder stylings available at some point too.

Second might be Codex/Mostly Codex/Non-Codex - Perhaps with each of those having some sub-choices that represent differing iterations? Like Mostly Codex might have something like 'greater concentration of Devastators' or something

Where I really question is if we should have the individual's spec be a part of this entire stage, or a separate set of choices. While I like the idea of flexibility. Spess Mehrens have this annoying fact that some of them ARE splatty, but some aren't. As we certainly need entry points for Tech Marines, Apothecaries, and Librarians. We might even want one for Chaplains (though this I can see being more of an elite advance) and any Chapter specific roles.

On the other hand, leaving this very... simple makes the Chapter specific stuff easier to represent by a basic choice or two.

If we do have 'roles' - my thought would, instead of the current Assault, Tactical, etc. Instead be: Melee, Heavy Weapons, Command, Scout (a full Marine DOES lead Scouts! This might double as Sniper). It's a subtle difference for sure, but I feel better reflects that an Astartes does go through 4 divisions in training. Then we also have Machine Cult, Apothecary, Librarian. - I could also see a 'Support' option being viable, for the flamer/shotgun/plasma/whatever sorts, which could be the other place we could slot in sniper.

So, using the system that has somewhat altered as needed between OW and DH2E what would you think of the following series:

Background / Geneseed Legacy

Homeworld / Chapter Tactics

Role / Specialty / Includes Support ones too

Elite Advances

Geneseed Legacy is what you describe above; the genetic lecay of the entire Founding that went into the specific force, as inherited for the group in question.

Chapter Tactics can include some modifiers to the Geneseed Legacy, however most is the one or two Aptitudes, Skills, and Starting Talents involved.

Specialty is the replacement for the current system; the battlefield role and what it would take to reflect what any given Astartes should have along the lines of training:

Basic:

- Codex Training Doctrine Path

- Divergent Training Doctrine Path

- Non-Codex Training Doctrine Path

Support:

- As above, just make them Elite Advances, example include:

- Tech-Marine

- Terminator Veteran / First Company Veteran

- Apothecary

- Special Ranged Weapon Tactical Marine

- Special Melee Weapon Tactical Marine

- Heavy Weapon Tactical Marine

Maybe a multi-rank Support system, which would allow:

Rank 2:

- Dreadnought

- Epistolary Librarian

- Chaplain

- Wolf Priest

- Sanguinary Priest

- Sergeants et. al.

Rank 3:

- Captain

- Venerable Dreadnought

- Company Librarian

Rank 4:

- Chapter Master

- Chapter Librarian

- Chapter Chaplain

- Etc.

Does this help, considering I started this and like where the thread went after I left it alone for a bit, and I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of the replies, as well as the ongoing discussion.

Need to mull on it more. But so far, so good.

One thing I really do want is the ability for it to seemlessly interact with DH2e, both for easy Inquisitor NPCs, and on the chance we get someone who really, really doesn't want to play a Space Marine (For any reason), just the right XP and voila. Maybe not as brutally effective, but able to keep up, to a point. And excede in their own specialitys. I mean, I could even see having the Inquisitor as a PC with the right player.

Need to mull on it more. But so far, so good.

One thing I really do want is the ability for it to seemlessly interact with DH2e, both for easy Inquisitor NPCs, and on the chance we get someone who really, really doesn't want to play a Space Marine (For any reason), just the right XP and voila. Maybe not as brutally effective, but able to keep up, to a point. And excede in their own specialitys. I mean, I could even see having the Inquisitor as a PC with the right player.

That is if anything one of the greatest rewards of doing this right. DW2E, OW, and DH2E working well together would result in a pretty seamless system if they all are simply more or less XP along a flowing, living interacting system of character generation.

On the above paths for the various Specialties:

Codex:

- Scout

- Devastator second

- Assault (I think this is the correct order)

- Tactical

Divergent:

- Adjust the above as needed

Non-Codex:

- By Chapter, each is basically a rework of the order of the Codex Training Doctrine series,

Space Wolves:

- Blood Claw (Assault without Jump Packs)

- Grey Hunter (Tactical?)

- Long Fang (Devastator)

Hope this helps.

Edit:

To whit, I think we can all agree that all Space Marines, regardless of Chapter, would function best as a DH2E Warrior type; that said, perhaps the best way to do this is to use the XP awarded to allow the character a certain flexibility.

Regiment / Geneseed Legacy

Background / Chapter Honours and Heritage

Warrior

Elite Advances, including all the above from both of my OW style posts and musings.

By separating the requirement of the various roles, a character such as Telion becomes viable to play; yes, give him whatever Specialties he chooses, from the Basic as well as Support. This entire structure seems to be pretty fluid, and, will allow the character's player to make a Telion, Lysander, or another famous character with ease.

I'm just going to toss this in here:

You'd have less work tailoring GURPS to your needs.

Carry on!

Proprietary other game is proprietary.

As it is, I'm getting more certain this is a good approach, one that would work thus far.

If:

- Regiment Design System / Chapter Geneseed and Heritage Generator

- The above includes a DH2E Homeworld system, something that works with either a Regimental or Chapter Generator setup

- Background fleshes out the history of the individual Astartes in such a way that one can write in a fluffy approach, or, in general a recruitment reason, some place where they excelled

- Warrior seems the best and most likely fit for anyone and everyone Astartes

Then:

All Astartes start as either Scout or Assault, with select Chapters that start as Assault being able to drop the Jump Pack Training for things like Rage, as an example

- Scout would be pretty well all Codex and Divergent Astartes Chapters

- Assault (without Jump Pack) would appear to be pretty well all non-Codex Astartes Chapters

This is just getting the nitty gritty figured out, in the following:

Chapter Generator:

- Codex

- Non-Codex

- Divergent

- Homeworld

- Death World seems a given, by and large

- Feudal World

- Feral World

- Hive World

- Decimated World (Dark Angels)

- Tactics?

(Should include such choices as order of basic (Rank 0) Advances; Scout, Devastator Second, Assault, Tactical)

(Might include things that indicate what Chapter this is, as a flavor and training approach (Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, etc.))

- Chapter Design (Should there be multiple choices here, or elsewhere?)

(Reason for existing)

- Siege (Imperial Fists)

- All-Round (Ultramarines, most Astartes Chapters)

- Assault (Space Wolves, Blood Angels)

- Etc.

- Demeanors?

- Tradition first (UM)

- Iron over flesh (Iron Hands)

- Etc.

- Howl! (SW)

- Drawbacks:

- Honourbound (SW, etc.)

- The Few (Any Astartes Chapter that finds it difficult for some reason to recruit in the 41st Millenium)

These are literally brainstorming level ideas thus far; please break out your books and see if there's anything missing that jumps out at you, or things that might better or more clearly clarify what the Chapter Generator System needs to be in order to include all existing Astartes Chapters.

Edit: Conjunction Junction, what's your function... (Word choice error)

Aptitudes (All Astartes):

Weapon Skill
Ballistic Skill
Offense
Defense
Toughness

Chapter (pick 2)

Iron Hands: Technology, Knowledge, OR Intelligence
Raven Guard: Agility, Finesse, OR Strength
Space Wolves: Agility, Finesse, OR Fieldcraft

Specialty (pick 2)

Apothecary = Intelligence, Fieldcraft OR Knowledge
Assault = Agility, Strength OR Finesse
Devastator = Strength, Intelligence OR Fieldcraft
Librarian = Willpower OR Knowledge (gets Psyker for free)
Tactical = Leadership, Agility OR Fieldcraft
Techmarine = Intelligence OR Knowledge (gets Tech for free)
(Revised, may undergo further revisions)
(Only War has a PDF of a revisable Character Sheet online; searching for it will likely aid you greatly, and I need to find it myself XP)

One Aptitude Player's choice

For +5 purposes for XP spent:
One +5 of player choice to place
Two +5's for Chapter benefits (already mentioned in DW 1E book)
Further +5's will be earned every 5,000 XP.

13,000 XP spent on advances.

2,000 XP to spend, per OW XP costs and Aptitude Charts comparisons.

Free Stuff! (Part of the 13,000 XP considered Spent at Character Generation)
barter, carouse, charm, climb, command, common lore (astartes, imperium), concealment, contortionist, deceive, disguise, evaluate, forbidden lore (xenos), gamble, inquiry, intimidate, literacy, logic, sholastic lore (astartes), scrutiny, search, silent move, swim, tactics (pick 1), tracking;

Black Crusade Astartes (with some changes in lores to Deathwatch, Chapter Lore, as needed)

Again, 2,000 XP to spend based on the above and OW rules set. Librarian powers from DW cost exactly 50% listed cost from that power's entry in the DW series of books.

http://www.daemonstorm.com/article/2013/04/14/only-war-character-sheets

Edit: Only War RPG system basis.

Man I wish this thread would continue. I like the idea of it especially since that was what FFG planned to do in the first place.

Ok, here's my 2 thrones on the subject.

Righteous fury needs overhauled, and made with some options. I hear in DH2 they use crippling wounds instead of extra damage. Maybe DW2 could go with a system by which a marine can do either extra damage points OR choose to go for a crippling wound. Likewise if a marine takes a RF attack he should be able to choose before the die is rolled whether it's just going to be extra hits or a crippling but survivable wound. I also think that limiting RF damage to just one d10 is too limiting, just as original RF was too high. Maybe make the RF dice explode. Also make the damage linked in toe way to special effects the weapon had, so a tearing weapon would roll 2d for RF damage and keep the better. Volatile Rf damage would also use the effects of the volatile rule, etc.

Resolve the just how dang much can a marine carry issue. Go with the idea of fixed mounts on a marine's armor. he can carry that without problems. If he has to carry more, like a specimen, say a dead tyranid, home, he has to deal with encumbrance.

Make the fire select bolters like the ones in the minis, change the 3 mags rule. a fire select bolt pistol might get 2 option mags with like 4 rounds apiece.

Let marines have more individuality. As is they have very little in the way of individual skills at creation. I know, I know they spend most of their lives being spess muhreens, but let them have a little individuality in the skills department, and make skills more open. Why can't and shouldn't a tech marine, for example, be able to start with some appraisal skill in some combat related or tech related field?. We don't need total chaos in skills, but the current system is too limited. One idea I have is to make marines choose a special area of gifted. You can be physically gifted, mentally gifted or spiritually gifted. You get a number of skill points based on your score in the related field to spend on things that must be, GM's opinion, related to your gifted area. So a tech marine might choose mentally gifted and load up on some extra intelligence based skills, a librarian might be spiritually gifted and take some related skills and an assault marine naturally opts for physical skills.

BTW, how about a new character class for DW? A chaplain. Seriously, he could have some special abilities like starting with a field armor save and a power weapon. His abilities could be to resist corruption, marines with him receive special saves against corruption. He could also have rules for like an aura of purity or something that was bad for chaos, and could inspire righteous hatred and zeal in his team mates.

Let marines have more individuality. As is they have very little in the way of individual skills at creation. I know, I know they spend most of their lives being spess muhreens, but let them have a little individuality in the skills department, and make skills more open. Why can't and shouldn't a tech marine, for example, be able to start with some appraisal skill in some combat related or tech related field?. We don't need total chaos in skills, but the current system is too limited. One idea I have is to make marines choose a special area of gifted. You can be physically gifted, mentally gifted or spiritually gifted. You get a number of skill points based on your score in the related field to spend on things that must be, GM's opinion, related to your gifted area. So a tech marine might choose mentally gifted and load up on some extra intelligence based skills, a librarian might be spiritually gifted and take some related skills and an assault marine naturally opts for physical skills.

Some of the Trade skills from DH:IH are thematically appropriate: IMP Fists should be able to acquire Scrimshaw and Mason, Black Templars Copyist( all those Oath papers and Purity Seals!), Space Wolves Embalmer and Tanner ( hunt trophies, xenos specimens), etc.

Most of the time, this has no"in-game" effect, apart from helping the players differentiate their characters from the 'generic'member of their chapter by opening up opportunities to play to the "fluff", but sometimes...

Suppose that to get a senior member of another chapter to support your approach to a situation you need to convince him that your method is within the bounds of the Codex and compatible with his sense of honour? A well written and beautifully penned Oath Paper, defining the problem's solution in terms of honourable acts may help to convince them...

Hope you find the idea helpful!

BTW, how about a new character class for DW? A chaplain. Seriously, he could have some special abilities like starting with a field armor save and a power weapon. His abilities could be to resist corruption, marines with him receive special saves against corruption. He could also have rules for like an aura of purity or something that was bad for chaos, and could inspire righteous hatred and zeal in his team mates.

There is already a Chaplain class in Deathwatch, its an Advanced Specialty choice in Rites of Battle pg. 106-108.

It's ahrd to fins a paper copy of RoW, some of them are going for like incredible sums. Didn;t FFh print enough of them?

I do think now would be a good time for a second edition of deathwatch, since the last deathwatch book came out now only have we gotten a new space marine codex, but we've gotten a DEATHWATCH codex