Lanister playar attacks Martel with Military chalange. Martel has two Maesters of the sun knelt (it is Summer) and Lanister wins unoposed.

Is it possible for Martel to stand his measter and save him from been kiled using masters response ( If it is Summer kneel MotS and discard a card to save martel char....), OR, as Lanister insisted, maester is already in morebound state and can't be saved?

Martel insisted it can be done in Framework acton Window No.5 responses.

The 4 of us could not agree about porper timing.

Help PLEASE !

Vengeful triggers as a passive, so here's what happens (p. 23 of the FAQ)

1. Determine Winner of Challenge (Lannister)
2. Challenge Result is Implemented (Claim, Maester Chosen & Dies, unless saved)

3. Reward Unopposed

4. Renown

5. Deadly

Then, once the whole framework window is finished, we move on to passives and responses (note numbering is now according to p. 21 in the FAQ, so to avoid confusion I'm switching to roman numerals)

IV. Passives (Vengeful, Vigilant, etc) to any of the steps in the framework action that just resolved.

This is where a maester of the sun could stand for vigilant.

V. Response to any of the steps in the framework action that just resolves OR to any of the passives that just resolved.

VI. End of the Action. Moribund Cards (The Maester of the Sun) leaves play.

So while the Maester can be standing when he leaves play, he certainly can't save himself - he's been dead and moribund since step 2. However, he *could* save someone from a Die by the Sword played as a response to winning the challenge, as that would happen in step V, after the maester stood in step IV.

The important thing to realize is that no passives (like Vengeful) for winning/losing a challenge take place until after claim, unopposed, renown and deadly have been resolved.

The other thing to realize - and something a lot of people don't seem to get at first - is that when you save a character from being killed, you stop it from ever dying, or becoming moribund, in the first place. Saves interrupt kill effects and stop them from resolving successfully. They do not "bring back" a character that has already been killed.

Taken together, those two things mean that the Martell player's Maesters do not stand until after claim has already resolved and killed something, and they cannot save something that is already dead.

Thanks guys for swift reply