Back on topic, I've always thought it was a bit silly to end up buying multiple copies of ships you may not even intend to play in order to own an upgrade card from that box. I'm sure there are many Squint and A-wing fans with Starvipers on their shelves collecting dust.

Then don't do that. Say you only bought one StarViper (because I think it's worth having one so you can run the Virago, even if you don't want to play with the generics), so you only have two copies of Autothrusters. That might mean you only run two Interceptors in your Imperial lists.

So what, though? "Monoculture" lists aren't generally as good as mixed ones anyway. Two named Interceptors come out to 50 or 60 points, which leaves you lots of room to add in a Phantom or a Lambda or a Firespray. As long as you're not literally obsessive about being able to field every legal combination of ships and upgrades, I'm convinced that you could feasibly buy one of every X-wing SKU and be set to fly everything you could ever want.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something. (As I said above, random packs are a bad idea.) But if FFG isn't interested in doing that, then we're not going to convince them to abandon whatever marketing analysis persuaded them to adopt their current position.

You're right, I also don't need to buy into X wing at all if we're going to play the childish need/want game.

We agree that they should put out card packs, so what are you arguing here other than pedantics?

Currently OC Games and Comics is doing very well. Mainly because of that dreaded nasty random pack of cards game called Magic the Gathering. Comic books are slowly rising to the number 2 spot, while pop candy and chips are taking the 3 seed. Then you have pokemon and yu gi oh. ( strangely random packs of cards gives my store money.) My clientele is mostly high school students and college student who do not have a pot to piss in, but somehow are able to spend 5-10 dollars every couple of days on new packs of magic.

Back on topic, I've always thought it was a bit silly to end up buying multiple copies of ships you may not even intend to play in order to own an upgrade card from that box. I'm sure there are many Squint and A-wing fans with Starvipers on their shelves collecting dust.

Then don't do that. Say you only bought one StarViper (because I think it's worth having one so you can run the Virago, even if you don't want to play with the generics), so you only have two copies of Autothrusters. That might mean you only run two Interceptors in your Imperial lists.

Even with just 1, that's a $15 ship you bought for just 2 cards.

I can see an argument for "upgrade packs" that included things like PTL, Autothrusters,

A £10 LCG data/force pack contains three copies each of twenty unique cards, released monthly. 240 cards a year, big boxes excluded.

Lone Wolf, Ruthlessness, the Warthog upgrade...lotta good/competitive cards require you to purchase ships from other factions.

Why of all upgrades did you pick Ruthlessness for that example?

Even with just 1, that's a $15 ship you bought for just 2 cards.

If you choose to buy a ship for two cards you've only got yourself to blame.

You're right, I also don't need to buy into X wing at all if we're going to play the childish need/want game.

Precisely.

Clearly you don't dislike it enough to not buy it.

FFG is offering a product via the model their marketing staff think will make the most money, all things considered. And it sells.

We agree that they should put out card packs, so what are you arguing here other than pedantics?

We don't agree.

I'm arguing that they shouldn't and, far, far more importantly, that the very fact that they don't is the second best indication that they won't, were it a workable model they'd probably already do it. The biggest indication, of course, is FFG themselves saying it's not going to happen.

I think that those people who are complaining about having to buy a ton of different models to fly one ship are missing one important thing. There is a difference between playing casually and playing competitively. If you want to play casually, all you need is the ships you want to fly. If you want a specific card, you can proxy or borrow it. Playing competitively is a whole different beast and the majority of x-wing players don't fit that category.

When a guy who just bought his first falcon... goes home and watches the FFG worlds finals and say "oh man I need to get a C-3PO for my Fat Han build... then finds out he has to buy an $80 corvette for one upgrade card? Then comes and complains to me about it. What should I tell him?

That if he wants that card he has to suck it up and buy a corvette like everyone else did. Imperial players finally got the Advanced fixed but we are going to have to buy a $100 ship to get it

Currently OC Games and Comics is doing very well. Mainly because of that dreaded nasty random pack of cards game called Magic the Gathering. Comic books are slowly rising to the number 2 spot, while pop candy and chips are taking the 3 seed. Then you have pokemon and yu gi oh. ( strangely random packs of cards gives my store money.) My clientele is mostly high school students and college student who do not have a pot to piss in, but somehow are able to spend 5-10 dollars every couple of days on new packs of magic.

keep in mind that not all the sell models work for all products, you can't try to sell X-wing the same way as Magic or Pokemon or yu gi oh

Back on topic, I've always thought it was a bit silly to end up buying multiple copies of ships you may not even intend to play in order to own an upgrade card from that box. I'm sure there are many Squint and A-wing fans with Starvipers on their shelves collecting dust.

Then don't do that. Say you only bought one StarViper (because I think it's worth having one so you can run the Virago, even if you don't want to play with the generics), so you only have two copies of Autothrusters. That might mean you only run two Interceptors in your Imperial lists.

So what, though? "Monoculture" lists aren't generally as good as mixed ones anyway. Two named Interceptors come out to 50 or 60 points, which leaves you lots of room to add in a Phantom or a Lambda or a Firespray. As long as you're not literally obsessive about being able to field every legal combination of ships and upgrades, I'm convinced that you could feasibly buy one of every X-wing SKU and be set to fly everything you could ever want.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something. (As I said above, random packs are a bad idea.) But if FFG isn't interested in doing that, then we're not going to convince them to abandon whatever marketing analysis persuaded them to adopt their current position.

Okay, I'll admit and my wife will agree that I am 'somewhat' obsessive. But that isn't the point!

Sure I don't need it but really? Auto-Thruster is a boost to the Interceptor and I'd like to have that option for my 4 Interceptors. For me in my little world it isn't very reasonable to say 'just don't play the same game we have'; 'you don't need buy everything for that ship', 'play around not having a really awesome upgrade for your ship'.

So to get an awesome upgrade I need to buy 2 x Star Vipers that I might not have otherwise purchased. Of course I could proxy it (I have some cards that are YT-1300 only) but there are players on this Forum that talk against that also; some going as far as saying either 'I'll play with that person but I won't like it' or 'I won't play with someone who proxies even in casual games', etc...

I don't really fret over it. The Star Vipers kind of add flavor... but advising me to play with only part of the game or buy ships I don't want to fix ships I already have isn't really the answer I was hoping for.

Just my two cents.

They already stated in the Jodo Cast interview that they won't do a cards only item. Can we drop it, please?

You're right, I also don't need to buy into X wing at all if we're going to play the childish need/want game.

We agree that they should put out card packs, so what are you arguing here other than pedantics?

I'm not sure if this was addressed to me, but I will state that I don't agree that they *should* put out card packs. If they did, and it was profitable for them, cool, I might pick some up. I'm not sure how they would go about inventory-ing that...if it would be random, or include certain titles or what. I'm not even sure how you'd go about making that decision (as manufacturer).

And it's not a "childish need/want" game and it's not being pedantic. Don't make remarks like that.

I want FFG to produce a quality and successful game. If that means they have to sell their toys for the current price under the current business model in order to ensure high quality models, and high quality, properly-play tested rules and add-ons, than I am willing to pay that cost. I feel that their pricing is right and fair, when I compare what I've spent on X Wing to what I've spent on 40k (as just an example), I find that that the cost benefit to me is highly favorable.

Lone Wolf, Ruthlessness, the Warthog upgrade...lotta good/competitive cards require you to purchase ships from other factions.

None of which you need, unless you're playing in premier events. Because for casual games you can proxy if you want, or just not use them.

So there is no requirement at all that you buy any ship from outside your faction. FFG has even made it easier by including things like PtL in the Imperial Aces box, or Advanced Sensors in the E-Wing.

Plus it's not like the only thing you get in the pack is that card, you're getting a model and a bunch of other cards, the fact that you may or may not want to use that model is your issue and not something that FFG needs to fix.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something.

I'd love to see something like that. I agree it's not likely feasible but it would be nice. However, such a thing is not required to get new people into the game. The only thing required for that is good salesmanship.

You don't tell someone they need to drop $500 on a game at one time, you get them to buy a core and a few ships, then let them expand from there. If they ask how much it would cost to buy a complete collection, tell them, but also point out that there is no reason to buy a complete collection up front or at all.

( strangely random packs of cards gives my store money.)

Random packs are undoubtedly a good deal on the supply/sales side, because they (a) key into the same psychology as lotteries and casinos, and (b) reduce the likelihood of getting the game element you want/need, requiring you to spend more money.

But they're bad for players for exactly the same reasons. As it stands now, I can get a Heavy Laser Cannon for $10-15, depending on where I buy. A $3.75 card pack with (say) a 10% chance of containing an HLC means I might spend as little as $3.75, but the median amount I'd have to spend is $26.25 (for seven packs, with a 52% chance of pulling at least one HLC).

Introducing random packs for X-wing would probably make your store more money, but that's because it would actually cost more for the typical player than the current distribution model does.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something.

I'd love to see something like that. I agree it's not likely feasible but it would be nice. However, such a thing is not required to get new people into the game. The only thing required for that is good salesmanship.

Yes, NO random packs

But upgrade pack with card would be nice. Likely? Probably not but very very nice and would make a lot of people happy.

You're right, I also don't need to buy into X wing at all if we're going to play the childish need/want game.

We agree that they should put out card packs, so what are you arguing here other than pedantics?

If you want to play interceptors, you pretty much only need 1x imperial aces and 1x interceptor pack. Then you will have all the pilots and enough upgrades to do fun things with all of them.

If you want autothrusters, a card soontir was good without, well then you make the cost analysis if that's worth $15 and a new ship to you. No ships are 100% reliant on any card that they don't have to be good, and if you can't spend a bit extra to buy a ship for the perfect upgrade for your squad, you're not likely to be invested in the game enough for that upgrade to competetively matter.

They already stated in the Jodo Cast interview that they won't do a cards only item. Can we drop it, please?

Hear, hear!

but somehow are able to spend 5-10 dollars every couple of days on new packs of magic.

That means they could quite easily manage a ship a week, and could have a sizable collection in 3-4 months.

But they're bad for players for exactly the same reasons.

While a card only pack may be something some of us wouldn't mind seeing... FFG would never, ever release random packs. They created the whole LCG system to get away from the random packs, in part IMO because random packs are bad for players. So the very idea that they'd go the random route with X-Wing is beyond absurd.

Once again in an mostly vain attempt to steer this to something constructive... Here's some ideas how to do limited buy in for X-Wing.

Do an escalation league/tournament, could even limit it to given waves.

Do a highlander league/tournament.

Do a league/tournament where people can use proxies.

Do a league/tournament where everyone picks a given faction and can only play that faction.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something.

I'd love to see something like that. I agree it's not likely feasible but it would be nice. However, such a thing is not required to get new people into the game. The only thing required for that is good salesmanship.

Yes, NO random packs

But upgrade pack with card would be nice. Likely? Probably not but very very nice and would make a lot of people happy.

Ken, (and anyone else), can I ask how you would go about making an inventory/sku out of this? If it's not random...what would you get exactly? A ship pilot card? And then what upgrades would they come with? The most successful/popular ones? Push the limit, predator, HLC, autothrusters, Tie X1 title, BTL title? Invariably, whatever skus they come up with will not be to everyone's liking...they will literally drive up costs for players by having to support (and FLGS having to stock) so many possible combinations of upgrade packs.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something.

I'd love to see something like that. I agree it's not likely feasible but it would be nice. However, such a thing is not required to get new people into the game. The only thing required for that is good salesmanship.

Yes, NO random packs

But upgrade pack with card would be nice. Likely? Probably not but very very nice and would make a lot of people happy.

Ken, (and anyone else), can I ask how you would go about making an inventory/sku out of this? If it's not random...what would you get exactly? A ship pilot card? And then what upgrades would they come with? The most successful/popular ones? Push the limit, predator, HLC, autothrusters, Tie X1 title, BTL title? Invariably, whatever skus they come up with will not be to everyone's liking...they will literally drive up costs for players by having to support (and FLGS having to stock) so many possible combinations of upgrade packs.

Someone already suggested it above.

Pack One: Elite Talents - 2 x all EPT

Pack Two: Turrets or Turrets and Guns

etc...

'I won't play with someone who proxies even in casual games', etc...

And do you actually want to play with someone who holds their purchase count as some sort of rank and refuses to play with anyone else who doesn't buy a ship they won't use for two bits of cardboard with writing on them?

I bought the Viper because I wanted the Viper. I'll get the Raider because I want the Raider. Would I buy them for the cards? Hell no. Some publically available rules text is not worth £80 to me.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something.

This is quite a useful example to make my main point on why they don't make card packs: they don't have enough cards.

Yes, they could release every EPT to date in a $15 pack, but that's six waves and four non-wave expansions worth of upgrades. But what do you do going forward? Do this each wave? Continue with the current model then do it again in Wave 12? How many upgrade cards are there in a wave?

The LCG makes this work because their packs contain sixty full size cards (three copies of twenty cards) released every month. Excluding the big packs they release, that's what, 240 cards a year? I don't think X-wing has 240 cards in it and it's been going for three.

To make it work they'd have to massively increase the number of upgrade cards and pilots they design, which means substantially less work per pilot and upgrade. Given how easily one pilot can send the community into fits, imagine how bad that could end.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something.

This is quite a useful example to make my main point on why they don't make card packs: they don't have enough cards.

Yes, they could release every EPT to date in a $15 pack. But what do you do going forward? Do this each wave? How many upgrade cards are there in a wave?

The LCG makes this work because their packs contain sixty full size cards (three copies of twenty cards) released every month. Excluding the big packs they release, that's what, 240 cards a year? I don't think X-wing has 240 cards in it and it's been going for three.

To make it work they'd have to massively increase the number of upgrade cards and pilots they design, which means substantially less work per pilot and upgrade. Given how easily one pilot can send the community into fits, imagine how bad that could end.

You know I really don't appreciate it when you make sense.

Especially when I've been making a very emotional opposing argument.

I agree with the OP to the extent that it would be good for players if we could buy an Elite Talent Pack with 2 copies of every EPT in the game for $15 or something.

This is quite a useful example to make my main point on why they don't make card packs: they don't have enough cards.

Oh, absolutely. There are a lot of mines buried between "that would be nice for us" and practical implementation on the business side. And although I don't have the details, I've seen enough of FFG's operation to trust that the reasons they don't want to publish card-only packs are solid ones, rather than "we can gouge the players a bit more if we make them buy minis".

I'm firmly of the mind that you could spend $375 to buy one of each SKU, excluding the Epic ships, and have a flexible, powerful, tournament-legal collection. If you want just one faction, that number shrinks quite a bit, although you'll occasionally have to borrow or proxy an upgrade... except that as several people (including you) have pointed out, if you're not planning to play in Premiere events that's almost certainly good enough.

Currently OC Games and Comics is doing very well. Mainly because of that dreaded nasty random pack of cards game called Magic the Gathering. Comic books are slowly rising to the number 2 spot, while pop candy and chips are taking the 3 seed. Then you have pokemon and yu gi oh. ( strangely random packs of cards gives my store money.) My clientele is mostly high school students and college student who do not have a pot to piss in, but somehow are able to spend 5-10 dollars every couple of days on new packs of magic.

...but for some reason you tell a potential player they have to put down $500 to play X-wing?

IF you had a beginners league then those players who spend $6-10 every couple of days could probably buy a ship ot 2 every week...

I am constantly stunned by how bad some game store owners are at selling product. your initial thread about your store opening had an amazing amount of good advice...go and read it again.

IF x-wing is the game you love the most then ******* put some energy into SELLING it...run demos and host beginner leagues..

I say again BEGINNER LEAGUES!

oh and have a deal to anyone that plays in the league "starter + 2 ($15) ships from their faction from wave 1" for $50. yes...take a slight loss on the first purchase...you will make it up quick.

I'm a graduate student without said pot to piss in, but I somehow have 500+ dollars worth of miniatures amassed and I'm even starting to buy paints to paint them. It's called not eating. Your clients should look into it.

First of all I never said you can't play x wing unless you drop $500! All I said was that my collection is that amount. They were curious!