If I roll (hit, hit, hit) with an ion cannon on Xizor and he rolls (evade, evade, blank). Let's assume there is a poor Z-95 within range one of Xizor. Can Xizor use his ability to pass the hit to
The Z or does ion cannons 'cancel all dice' ruling kick in before he has the chance to Palm
It off?
Cheers guys
He can palm off the uncancelled hit./crit result if he wishes - but he still has to resolve the ion effect on himself (i.e take 1 damage, 1 ion token etc)
So you probably wouldn't want to do this
This has been debated several times, but the debate is academic, since as pointed out above why would you, if you could? Suffice it to say, i think you can't even do it, as opposed to the above post.
Yeah, this is pretty much what I assumes. Thanks for the clarification
since as pointed out above why would you, if you could?
While I agree that Xizor would suffer the crit. There is now a corner case where passing on the damage may be useful.
If you have another ship at range 1 with Deadmans Switch, you may want to pass that damage on to blow up that ship, because Xizor will survive but Whisper next to that other ship won't. It could in theory win you the game.
This is admittedly a fairly narrow window, but there is now a reason why you may want to do that.
since as pointed out above why would you, if you could?
While I agree that Xizor would suffer the crit. There is now a corner case where passing on the damage may be useful.
If you have another ship at range 1 with Deadmans Switch, you may want to pass that damage on to blow up that ship, because Xizor will survive but Whisper next to that other ship won't. It could in theory win you the game.
This is admittedly a fairly narrow window, but there is now a reason why you may want to do that.
and thematically this would fit exactly with the Scummy kind of ethos a Black Sun Crime Boss might have.
I like it 
Well that is exactly what I have argued for ages. That someone might find a case where they actually want the second ship to suffer the damage. And I still hold the opinion that you can't make the second ship suffer uncancelled damage on your behalf as all dice were cancelled in step 6 and the second ship would suffer the damage in step 7. In light of this new example, the discussion is no longer academic, but actually important.
Combat Phase steps:
Prince Xizor: When defending, a friendly ship at Range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled Hit or Crit result instead of you.
Ion Cannon: Attack: Attack 1 ship. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel all dice results.
To me, the rules are clear.
Prince Xizor's ability happens during step 7 of the Combat Phase, which is when ships suffer damage.
Ion Cannon's effect happens during step 6, as soon as you know if the attack hit.
So, during step 6, you compare dice and figure out if the attack hit. If it does, Ion Cannon's effect cancels all dice and the defender suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. When you get to step 7, there are no uncancelled Hit or Crit results for Xizor's ability to be used on.
I do not think the damage Xizor suffers from the Ion Cannon can be passed on, since it is not an "uncancelled Hit or Crit result", as his ability mentions. In the same way, I do not think Prince Xizor can pass a Vader-Crit to another ship, since it is not an "uncancelled Hit or Crit result".
Edit: Because the distinction is important here...
"Dice Results" cause "Damage" which cause shield loss or face up/down damage cards to be dealt.
Ion Cannon cancels all "dice results" and causes 1 "Damage".
Prince Xizor's ability only affects "dice results".
Combat Phase steps:
- 6. Compare Results: Players compare the final attack and defense dice results to determine if the defender was hit and how much damage it suffers.
- 7. Deal Damage: If the defender was hit, it loses shield tokens or receives Damage cards based on the damage it suffers.
Prince Xizor: When defending, a friendly ship at Range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled Hit or Crit result instead of you.
Ion Cannon: Attack: Attack 1 ship. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel all dice results.
To me, the rules are clear.
Prince Xizor's ability happens during step 7 of the Combat Phase, which is when ships suffer damage.
Ion Cannon's effect happens during step 6, as soon as you know if the attack hit.
So, during step 6, you compare dice and figure out if the attack hit. If it does, Ion Cannon's effect cancels all dice and the defender suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. When you get to step 7, there are no uncancelled Hit or Crit results for Xizor's ability to be used on.
I do not think the damage Xizor suffers from the Ion Cannon can be passed on, since it is not an "uncancelled Hit or Crit result", as his ability mentions. In the same way, I do not think Prince Xizor can pass a Vader-Crit to another ship, since it is not an "uncancelled Hit or Crit result".
I agree with your description of the timing but I disagree that Xizor couldn't pass on the damage from an Ion Cannon. Xizor should get the token, but another ship can take the damage on his behalf.
In light of this new example, the discussion is no longer academic, but actually important.
I could honestly go either way with it. I actually emailed FFG about it a bit ago, using the Xizor/DtF and Dead Man's Switch example to see what they said. But haven't gotten a response yet.
Maybe someone else could try and see if they have better luck.
I agree with your description of the timing but I disagree that Xizor couldn't pass on the damage from an Ion Cannon. Xizor should get the token, but another ship can take the damage on his behalf.
How would you justify your point of view?
Just FYI, there has been a potential case where this is relevant since wave 2.
If there is a proximity mine that an enemy's ship can't avoid hitting next time it moves, but a severely damaged and crippled ship of yours will hit it first, you might want to use DTF to kill your own ship so that the enemy ace hits the mine instead of your ship that was going to die anyway.
Doesn't really clarify the rules interactions, just wanted to point out that it wasn't COMPLETLY academic before scum.
Prince Xizor: ...uncancelled Hit or Crit result...
Because in theory, Xizor (or a ship with DtF) could pull one of the uncanceled <hit> or <crits> before the Ion weapon cancels everything.
It all depends on when exactly Xizor/DtF triggers and when the ion weapon canceled stuff. It's been debated quite extensively and so far no one has come up with a conclusive or even agreed upon argument for how it should work.
I think it is a mistake to assume the discussion we've had for months about Draw Their Fire would so easily be applicable to Xizor.
Draw Their Fire: When a friendly ship at range 1 is hit by an attack....
Prince Xizor: When defending, a friendly ship at range 1 may suffer 1 uncanceled hit or crit result instead of you.
With Draw Their Fire it is clear that the defending ship would still get the ion effect, since it is still considered hit, because DTF triggers from that fact.
Xizor however, does not have that clause, so it can be argued that the uncanceled hit can be moved to a friendly ship before checking if Xizor is hit.
In fact, since Xizor does not specify you have to be hit, and DtF does, I think the distinction is by design, and the idea is that Xizor in some cases will avoid triggering ion cannon, assault missiles, etc. where DtF would not.
How can a [hit] or [crit] result be "uncancelled" before dice results are checked? Until they look at Xizor's defense they are just 'results' and can't be considered 'uncancelled'.
I think it is a mistake to assume the discussion we've had for months about Draw Their Fire would so easily be applicable to Xizor.
Draw Their Fire: When a friendly ship at range 1 is hit by an attack....
Prince Xizor: When defending, a friendly ship at range 1 may suffer 1 uncanceled hit or crit result instead of you.
With Draw Their Fire it is clear that the defending ship would still get the ion effect, since it is still considered hit, because DTF triggers from that fact.
Xizor however, does not have that clause, so it can be argued that the uncanceled hit can be moved to a friendly ship before checking if Xizor is hit.
In fact, since Xizor does not specify you have to be hit, and DtF does, I think the distinction is by design, and the idea is that Xizor in some cases will avoid triggering ion cannon, assault missiles, etc. where DtF would not.
It seems to me that both DTF and Xizor's ability would happen at step 7 instead of step 6.
I agree with your description of the timing but I disagree that Xizor couldn't pass on the damage from an Ion Cannon. Xizor should get the token, but another ship can take the damage on his behalf.
How would you justify your point of view?
Prince Xizor: ...uncancelled Hit or Crit result...Ion Cannon: ...suffers 1 damage...
Eh, you're probably correct. I was thinking that the Ion Cannon caused a hit result, but the "suffer" one damage seems to suggest that it didn't.
Xizor however, does not have that clause, so it can be argued that the uncanceled hit can be moved to a friendly ship before checking if Xizor is hit.
In fact, since Xizor does not specify you have to be hit, and DtF does, I think the distinction is by design, and the idea is that Xizor in some cases will avoid triggering ion cannon, assault missiles, etc. where DtF would not.
I don't think that's how Xizor works.
Dice are compared, and you are left with uncancelled hits and crits during step 6.
Damage is suffered in Step 7.
Prince Xizor: When defending, a friendly ship at Range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled Hit or Crit result instead of you.
With the way Xizor is worded, I'm pretty sure his ability triggers in Step 7.
Seems, to me, that you can't have another ship "suffer 1 uncancelled [dice result] instead of [Xizor]" before it's time for Xizor to suffer the uncancelled dice result.
For it to work the way you intend, it'd have to read something along the lines of: "When defending, you may have a friendly ship at range 1 suffer 1 hit to cancel 1 hit result or have a friendly ship at range 1 suffer 1 critical hit to cancel 1 critical hit result."
The distinction on the timing is whether Xizor/DTF set up a condition that changes the target during the normal flow, or is an immediately-resolved ability that does its thing completely when the trigger condition is met.
For all the pixels we've killed in this discussion, X-wing just doesn't have tight enough definitions of ability durations and resolution for us to answer that with certainty. I'm inclined to resolve it in Step 6, just because those sorts of "Make this happen later" abilities are often messy (IG-88A, anyone?)... but there's nothing in the rules that actually says one way or another, and there don't seem to be any rulings we can use for precedent.
In light of this new example, the discussion is no longer academic, but actually important.
I don't know that I'd go all the way to calling it important. It's a pretty extreme corner case that could move a point or two of damage around every hundred games or so. It may have a potential to matter, and I'm sure that for whoever's standing at a table arguing it it'll be the most important thing in the world... but in the grand scheme of the game, it's pretty minor.
Xizor however, does not have that clause
Nothing in the game changes who the defender of an attack is. No matter what happens to various dice results as a result of special abilities the defender remains the ship that was initially targeted (xizor) and ion weapons effect the defender.