Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I just wanted to get people's opinions...

One of the main complaints I hear about Talisman (this is at conventions, mainly) is that it just takes too long to play. I can't tell you how many times I had my game set up in the gaming room and had people come up and say "Hey, it's Talisman! But oh, it takes too long to play and I have a game at...". In my personal experience, I also have to agree that some games can take a looooooong time, since I've had many games that we haven't even finished because we only gave ourselves 4 hours to play

However... say, I play the basic game in the Digital version, with AI opponents. I can actually finish a game before dawn starts to break outside my window

The difference (besides one being on the computer and one on my dining room table) is... expansions! I think I have every 4th edition expansion to date. The number of Adventure cards is so large that I can't possibly even put them all in a single stack without it immediately falling over. And I believe this is where the issue lies.

The base game, with the basic Adventure cards, was carefully balanced to have the right ratio of monsters, treasures, and events/strangers. It had certain key cards, such as the strength/craft/life pools. With this basic collection of cards, and using 7-stat trophy turn-ins, you could get powerful enough to attempt the Crown of Command in a very reasonable amount of time.

But with all the expansions, at least the ones that contribute to the standard Adventure deck, it throws off the balance. First off, you can never use all of the Adventure cards. There's just too many of them. You can just grab a pile of them and say "this is the Adventure deck", but you never really know what cards you're getting. Because of the huge number of cards, you may be getting too few or too many monster cards, or not enough items, or (more than likely) you're missing some of the key standard cards the help the basic game along. The more off-balanced your "deck" is, in my experience, the longer the game takes to play.

I've tried a few things to help remedy this, with mixed results. One thing we generally do is change the trophy turn-in to 4 instead of 7. This makes it easier to gain power. But it doesn't always shorten the game. Again, if a deck consists of random items, events, and strangers, but no monsters to fight, it's going to take you a long time to gain strength and craft, even with a 4-stat trophy turn-in.

We briefly dabbled in having multiple Adventure "decks" consisting of monsters in one, and everything else in another. That didn't work out so well when you had a character that disproportionately benefited from fighting or capturing monsters. That that went out the window after one try

I also tried stacking my own deck. I went through all the cards and basically tried to re-create the balance of the basic game by including certain precentages of cards from the different categories. This has also been somewhat successful, but a) I have to basically toss away most of the expansion Adventure cards, and b) I sometimes don't remember which stack of Adventure cards is MY stack and have to do it all over again every time we play.

Anyway... I'm sure some of you have had this same, or similar, problem with your games. I'd really be interested to know how, or if, you solved it, preferably without just ditching most of the expansion Adventure cards I've loved Talisman since I played the 2nd edition back in the 80's, and I'd love to play it more. There's just not enough hours in the day to do it sometimes

I don't see expansions adding to game length, especially not if the Dungeon is used. We rarely go past 90 minutes with Talisman (standard 7-point trophy rule), that's even with extra prepping done because of the potential of a boss ending, combat stat needs to be about 14 or 15 before someone hits the Crown most often. With normal Crown of Command ending, you just need main stat at around 8 or 9 and you're good to go.

As for having one Adventure deck and not tipping it over:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1819083/dam-man

For scale, the Heroclix Sentinel next to the deck is over 7 inches tall.

Yes I agree with Dam - I also think the number of expansions is mostly irrelevant to the play time. I think the play time increases with (in order) the number of players, using small box expansions without corners, and over-preparing for the Inner Region, especially with boss fights.

Small box expansions dilute some cards such as Enemies and gold because they exist in the corners that were released prior, so skipping the corners actually can lengthen the game a bit.

I'd also say that game time increases with the amount of players. Someone made a neat topic about shortening it though, check it out.

I have a mixed response to this.

I think, at it's core, that expansions do not add much extra time to gameplay (unless we are including setup and teardown). I say "much time", because there are expansions such as the Dragon, that are so fiddly, that it does incrementally increase time play. However, when board expansions are new, I think they DO add significant time to play because players tend to gravitate to spending unusually long amounts of time on the new board. So I think this really depends on perspective.

Additional players are what really contribute to long games.

Dam, I am extremely jealous of your 90 min game though, I have no idea how you do that. I have on average 2-4 players and I've never had a game under 3 1/2 - 4 hours (sometimes 5-6).

On a side note, I think card dilution is a wonderful thing for variety in the game.

Yes I agree with Dam - I also think the number of expansions is mostly irrelevant to the play time. I think the play time increases with (in order) the number of players, using small box expansions without corners, and over-preparing for the Inner Region, especially with boss fights.

Small box expansions dilute some cards such as Enemies and gold because they exist in the corners that were released prior, so skipping the corners actually can lengthen the game a bit.

I probably should have clarified. Your second point was what I was talking about: the small-box expansions that add to the original Adventure card deck. And it's for the reason stated, as well. With all the cards, it throws off the balance of the original deck since there's really no way to get through all of those cards in a single game and you may end up with a dearth in monsters, or treasure, or whatever. The corner expansions, I believe, actually speed the game up, since they give you a path with increasingly-difficult challenges, all while keeping their own deck of "Adventure" cards.

Generally, we don't play with the City expansion too often since it's a bit complicated to set up, and we notice that it gives a big advantage to characters that gain gold really easily. We used to play with the Dragon expansion all the time, but as chemical22 said, it does add new steps to the general game play, so it's generally voted down now.

So how do you guys handle a 6 or 7 inch pile of original Adventure cards, while ensuring that you won't go the entire game just drawing events and no monsters?

Dam, I am extremely jealous of your 90 min game though, I have no idea how you do that. I have on average 2-4 players and I've never had a game under 3 1/2 - 4 hours (sometimes 5-6).

Do you play Relic? If so, how long do those games take?

IMO, turns in Talisman should go by fast, roll, move (no counting spaces, we know what result from the current space gets to which space), draw, maybe make another roll or two for combat, but really, no combat, 10 seconds max, with combat, 20 seconds max.

As for shuffling the Adventure deck, I first split it into three equal size smaller decks. Shuffle those individually, cut and then split those into two halves. Thus six stacks. Pick two stacks (but not two that initially formed one deck of the three), one in each hand and drop cards from the stacks alternating until they again form a deck (ideally I'd love to drop cards individually to get a really good "shuffle", but it usually ends up coming down in 2s, 3s, 4s or 5s, no bigger lumps than that). Do this to all six stacks, giving you three decks, which then go back into the One Deck To Rule Them All . Never ever had a no monster game, they still make up a good portion of the Adventure deck. And if they don't come right away, it just means they'll be more coming soon. Or just hit the Dungeon board with its super-high percentage of monsters.

So how do you guys handle a 6 or 7 inch pile of original Adventure cards, while ensuring that you won't go the entire game just drawing events and no monsters?

So, if I play with The Reaper by itself, that's OK. Because that's what actually happened at one point in 2008 or so. There weren't other expansions available. You'll notice The Reaper has the same ratio of monsters, gold, and stat gains as the base game, so there isn't any dilution. Sacred Pool, however, massively dilutes the deck, so I like having the Reaper, Dungeon, Frostmarch, and Highland in play as well.

I mean that's pretty anal, and really it comes from my tendency to introduce expansions "one by one," in release order, to new players. Once a group has used an expansion, I'd rather keep it in at all times. If you want to shake things up, you can randomize your expansions: roll a die, and on 1-3 the expansion is in, and 4-6 the expansion is out.

But I wouldn't ignore the corners... Talisman really shines with all its content and options.

We always play with at least the Highlands and the Dungeon. I recently bought... er... the Woodlands? The other missing corner expansion I noticed that there were some new rule concepts to learn, so we haven't delved into that one yet. And as I said before, the City can be a chore to set up, and you need a lot of gold to take advantage of it. The Highlands and Dungeon are no-brainers, but the City, I think, is situational.

I suppose what I could do is divide out my hundreds of Adventure cards into piles based on the expansions they came with, then pick and choose which ones to include in my deck. Good to know that the Reaper comes with a balanced batch of cards, but to be honest, we never actually use the Reaper figure Every time we've tried, we always forget to move the Reaper (or the Werewolf either), so we don't bother any more. I also removed all the Lunar Event cards, since we don't track day and night.

So, the Reaper and Frostmarch decks are pretty well balanced? And Sacred Pool kind of throws that out the window? Is there any way to tell where cards come from, like a symbol somewhere that I haven't noticed (I know Munchkin has a unique symbol on the cards for each expansion)? If not, is there a list of cards that are available with the various expansion packs (and the base game)?

Is there any way to tell where cards come from, like a symbol somewhere that I haven't noticed (I know Munchkin has a unique symbol on the cards for each expansion)? If not, is there a list of cards that are available with the various expansion packs (and the base game)?

Yes. Each expansion card has a small circular logo denoting what expansion it comes from, though it can be a bit hard to see.

Talisman is quite long as a game. I've heard Dam talking about his enviable 90 mins average dozens of times, but he's the only one that boasts such tight playing times. If players have a good experience with the game, I think a Talisman game should last on average around 40 mins per player; with unexperienced or distracted people, it can stretch up to 60-70 mins per player.

This considered, I don't think expansions add much playing time to the game. I remember my first games with 4th edition and they just lasted as long as today's games; the introduction of new expansions necessarily stretches the game until people are willing to discover the new material and learn the opportunities it offers. Once novelties are unveiled, playing time should reset to the standard.

Corner expansions slightly add to the playing time because they encourage exploration and alternative routes which prevent the most disadvantaged characters from remaining in the Outer Region where they can't progress; for the same reason, they could work as a distraction for characters that are already set for winning the game. Long playing time is often related to lingering in Talisman.

I've spent some words about trimming the Adventure deck in several threads. No combination of expansions slows down or speeds up the game; I suggest trying different blends of Adventure cards, mixing 2 expansions at a time (not more) with the base deck. This is great to experience different settings and flavours, but not to speed up the game. The only exception is the Firelands expansion, which adds some harshness and difficulty that actually can make a game a little longer. To speed up the game, your best friend is the 6 or 5 points trophy rule; I can't suggest any other tricks to shorten the game except learning movement patterns and card content, which saves a lot of time.

All in all, what matters is not the difficulty of the game, but the threat level posed by your fellow players. In a group with resigned players who rely exclusively on luck, the first who makes it would often be the winner. If the others play very competitive, the standard requirements to reach the Crown of Command might not be enough to win the game, because others can gear up and find ways to stop others from winning, instead of winning themselves. This increases the length of the game. Or you can just play as Dam and head for the Crown as soon as your stats are right, hoping to get a quick victory or be quickly fooled by another character that steals the victory from you. Since the games last only 90 mins, it's not a big deal starting one over and see if this could be yours.

My group has very long playing times. We average over 12 hours per game, we usually have 5 players. I do not believe expansions in general lengthen the game, but I believe some add a little.

I think the +1/-1 Day/Night rule lengthens the game, you would think it evens out, but I seem to get pooched and night slows my development. In my home games with my set I do not play this rule, but with my friend's set we do.

I think Dragons lengthen the game by also making the game harder to level up.

I enjoy a large Adventure deck, this means the game is different every time, however, so few cards are used now days.

One of my friends thinks the NPC's (Reaper & Werewolf) lengthen the game, they may, but I love the Reaper, in my home games I don't play with the werewolf.

The longest game we ever played was 6 hours with 6 players...

My fastest game lastet 30 minutes, 1vs1 bloodbath. Longest...5h, if not more. And I played with as many as 7 ppl as well (8 total).

Dam, I am extremely jealous of your 90 min game though, I have no idea how you do that. I have on average 2-4 players and I've never had a game under 3 1/2 - 4 hours (sometimes 5-6).

Do you play Relic? If so, how long do those games take?

I've only played Relic twice and since we were all learning the rules, I don't think I have an accurate comparison for you. I'd like to think they were about a 3-4 hour games - but I'm not entirely sure to be honest.

Maybe we just do too much bragging and gutter talk to each other. Could be the problem.

So how do you guys handle a 6 or 7 inch pile of original Adventure cards, while ensuring that you won't go the entire game just drawing events and no monsters?

I think it just manages itself really. I've never run into that situation, especially when playing with so many other supplimentary decks. If the adventure cards are sporting a lot of events, places and equipment - move on to the highland, dungeon or dragon decks and you are sure to find lots of encounters to get you to where you want to be!

Expansions shouldn't really affect playtime too much; where you gain your power doesn't really matter.

There's 2 things that really affect the game time:

how people read/reveal their cards and how they behave when it comes to finishing the game.

In my group we've played quite a lot, we know the cards, so we basically just announce the name, and reveal. Next guy rolls. Most turns are 5 secs long, Sometimes we pause and chat, of course, but whenwe play its very fast.

We also play very aggresively. There's a tendency for players to hold off on the inner region till they have 12 in every stat and a few spells on hand. We do none of that nonsense. The hard part about the inner region is getting in. Once you cleared the 3d6 test (which doesnt even cost much to fail) you just need a little luck to make it to the crown.

We average less than an hour per game and have ended games in less than 15 minutes when a character like the troll drew a talisman early on, or a magicuser got a few good craft items. Strength is the route that requires the least: death is easily beaten by a point of fate, and on average will cost 2 life without it, and a single point of fate reduces the werewolf to an average strength of 5,5. Craft requires a boost to battle to give you a score of at least 6, preferably 7 to deal with the fiends, but a minimum of 4 life and some fate should reliably get you past both fiends and the vampire even if your strength is just 4.

All you need is minimum 7 in either strength or craft, minimum 3 life and preferably some fate or spells and you have a decent shot at making it through the inner region.

We've introduced a few rules that speed up the game, and we encourage risky playing styles by having death be a timeout for a few turns at the temple ressurecting at 1 life after 2 turns with all gear and gained stats. But keeping the above in mind is really the key, and should make games last no more than 2 hours.

I have another group that is less experienced. every card is read out and passed around and noone enters the inner region until they can cruise through it effortlessly. With that group playtime is usually 4 hours.