Fair enough.

The defence bonus is then distributed as you see fit between the defensive zones? So a TIE gets to add 3 in one zone or split it 2-1?

For the x-wing this could bring it over the defence cap of 4 in one zone. I believe. If I recall correctly. Incorrect, x-wing doesn't have that high handling. I blame falling asleep. Defensive zone cap of 4 is still a potential issue though. Even if it's still not a big issue.

I think it would be easier to just add a difficulty die, but your solution is pretty cool and gives an edge to manoeuvrable vehicles.

Advanced Evasive Maneuvers

Pilot Only: Yes

Silhouette: 1-3

Piloting skill: 3+

Speed: 3+

Executing an Advanced Evasive Maneuvers upgrades the difficulty of the dice pool twice for all attacks made against the ship as well as increasing a ship's defense by it's handling until the end of the pilot’s next turn. While this makes the ship executing the starship maneuver harder to hit, it also makes it harder for the ship executing the starship maneuver to hit anything else. Executing Advanced Evasive Maneuvers likewise upgrades the difficulty of the dice pool once for all attacks made by the ship until the end of the pilot’s next turn. Evasive Maneuvers can only be undertaken by ships or vehicles of silhouette 3 or lower, piloted by characters with an appropriate Piloting skill (Space or Planetary) of 3 or greater. This maneuver is treated as Evasive Maneuvers for purposes of talents, maneuvers, or actions (such as Gain the Advantage).

After taking a look at the numbers, I think this, GtA as a Competitive check (in place of speed difficulty), and being able to start combat with EM in place (when not surprised), tenatively fixes starfighter combat for me.

Thanks everyone.

Although advanced EM is a cool idea, I am with Sturn, that and EM upgraded by pilot skill. It worked well in the simulations I ran.

One more idea. Sorry couldn't help myself.

Instead of adding the Advanced Evasive Maneuvers, perhaps just add the following sentence to the RAW Evasive Maneuvers?

“Also receive 1 Defense per 2 points of Skill + Handling”.

The default Upgrade plus bonus Defense if the pilot and/or craft is talented enough.

Running some numbers you get the following with varying skill levels:

Skill levels of 0/1/2/3/4/5 and corresponding EM Defense Scores

YT-1300/B-Wing (handling-1) 0/0/0/1/1/2

Y-Wing (handling+0) 0/0/1/1/2/2

X-Wing (handling+1) 0/1/1/2/2/3

TIE/A-Wing (handling+3) 1/2/2/3/3/4

May I propose a modification to the wright up done by Doc (thank you for the formatting btw)

First off I propose it be an action rather than a maneuver

So, maybe what's missing is small craft-only maneuvers. We have maneuvers that are for silhouette 4 or under only, but what about special maneuvers for silhouette 3 and under (or maybe silhouette 2 for ground vehicles)? These maneuvers would, somehow, take the pilot's skill more into consideration.

I think this is probably the best course of action. Not an easy solution by any means, but the one I think will be most likely to yield the intended results if it can be properly balanced out.

A big part of the difficulty though is what is the end result? Where is the problem occurring? Is this an issue where the player at starter XP in a single fighter wants to take out 3 or 4 minion groups of 3 TIE fighters with minimal damage reliably? To me that feels a little extreme and actually a step back of sorts. Right now a Starter XP in an X-wing can take out a single minion group with a reasonable amount of reliability (using only lasers), but odds are they'll be at half their HT by the end of that fight.

Squadron them up for more durability, but then everyone freaks out because they don't want the responsibility of minions dying "for them"...

Add HT and you get more durability, but that's also kinda the "thing" a Sil 4 gunship has going for it, so you now have to increase that too. Furthermore how much do you increase it by? 7ish so it can take one more hit? 14ish for 2? How many hits does a fighter need to take before it feels "right" and why should it take that many when even the other media usually have a fighter get obliterated after more then 3 hits?

I'm not 100% sure that upgrades will yield the intended result. Remember upgrades don't' increase the difficulty that much, and only add the possibility of something extra bad happening... it's an option, I'm just saying I think to get the intended results we need to add dice, not merely improve them...

Anything that Adds Defenses isn't a bad idea, but we've already got a way to do that (defensive driving) and Defenses have a cap. 4. After that your efforts are for nothing. So that's probably not the best solution.

I'm actually leaning toward a kind of maneuver/action to increase the difficulty by a step or two. The challenge is balancing that. It's got to function, but still not be the better alternative to actual evasive maneuvers.

Perhaps a reverse GTA that makes the target harder to hit, but then you'll have excessive non-shooting actions that won't improve the combat so much as bog it down...

I'm not 100% sure that upgrades will yield the intended result. Remember upgrades don't' increase the difficulty that much, and only add the possibility of something extra bad happening... it's an option, I'm just saying I think to get the intended results we need to add dice, not merely improve them...

Anything that Adds Defenses isn't a bad idea, but we've already got a way to do that (defensive driving) and Defenses have a cap. 4. After that your efforts are for nothing. So that's probably not the best solution.

I'm actually leaning toward a kind of maneuver/action to increase the difficulty by a step or two. The challenge is balancing that. It's got to function, but still not be the better alternative to actual evasive maneuvers.

Perhaps a reverse GTA that makes the target harder to hit, but then you'll have excessive non-shooting actions that won't improve the combat so much as bog it down...

Good points so how about this...

Here's something I've been playing around with. Since we're now looking at starfighter-only maneuvers (or at least, small craft maneuvers), what I thought I'd do is look up some actual fighter aircraft combat maneuvers and see how they might be applied. Although a lot of this stuff is over my head (I'm neither a pilot, nor a airplane aficionado), it looks like a lot of these maneuvers can be generalized by existing maneuvers, or are the purview of talents (Immelman turns, for instance, seem very similar to the Koiogran Turn talent). But a few, I think, could be applied to starfighter combat.

Below is a short list of actual aircraft combat maneuvers. The SWRPG interpretations are mine, of course, and may need some work (or be replaced completely). Let me know what you think.

• Add setback dice equal to half of Piloting skill (rounded up) to the enemy's next attack. Add one boost dice to the enemy's next Piloting check. Performer's speed drops by 2, to a minimum of 1.
• Add boost dice equal to half of Piloting skill (rounded up) to the performer's next attack. Add one setback to the performer's next Piloting check. Performer's speed drops by 2, to a minimum of 1.

It seems like we're pushing a lot into the tactical, x-wing style combat with those. I remember Saga getting like this after the starfighter book came out. You'd start with attack pattern, then choose your turn's maneuver, cross reference and... anyway, I digress.

These feel like the kinds of things that might be good house rules in a Starfighter designed campaign, but really just bloat the system for a standard game. I take to beat the old 'like ground combat' drum, but would we ever be discussing a commando having three maneuvers with their own special rules on how she assaults a group of stormtroopers?

Quicks on the money, you guys have some good ideas, but you're also going overboard. One of the hallmarks of the current system is that it's intended to be FAST.

So I think Ryo might be closer (but I like Ogg's names better)... but maybe with something more like....

Super Dodge awesome thing or another (Need's a name that better differentiates it from normal EM)

Pilot Only: Yes

Silhouette: 1-3

Speed: 4+

This action represents the pilots assesment of the conflict they are in and their use of the remarkable acrobatic maneuverability of smaller Starfighters, Swoop bikes, Airspeeders and the like. Take the [Whatever] Action basing difficulty on speed. [Whatever] increases the difficulty of the dice pool, once, for all attacks made against the ship for until the end of it's next turn. Advanced Evasive Maneuvers can only be in effect once for any given vehicle. It may be used in conjunction with Evasive Maneuvers.

This still has issues though... it stacks with defenses, which the higher you go the easier they are to get. It doesn't drastically change the dicepool, though possibly enough. I'm wondering how it stacks with EMs...not to mention talents like Tricky Target... could see that being a point of abuse...

Still it's seems like at the very least a way to help mitigate some situations...

Like I said though that's the sticky wicket. What's the situation that people always get TOed about? I can never truly tell. I hear a lot of "oh if I don't win the initiative check I'm dead" but there's so many other variables that I can't swollow that one whole.

What range are you starting at? What opponent? What's that opponent doing? Why? Are you alone or with friends? Are they alone or with friends? If you're alone and they aren't what have you done to anger your GM so?

Sometimes I kinda suspect the problem is less one of some mechanical issue and more one of a player wanting to fly an X-wing (because.. STAR WARS) and the GM not giving them the resources to do that successfully (because so many other aspects of RPG adventure writing work better without that kind of resourcing)....

The problem with doing it as an action is that it doesn't really solve anything for a starfighter, it just prolongs the inevitable. A pilot shouldn't have to spend every action dodging to survive.

The problem with doing it as an action is that it doesn't really solve anything for a starfighter, it just prolongs the inevitable. A pilot shouldn't have to spend every action dodging to survive.

I would like to get back on this boat as we started discussing the actual play and not rule lawyering. I think you are mistaken, a pilot's action should always be about survival. As formally said, a pilot needs wits... he needs to know to move in and out of his rival's range, increasing speed and moving away (which usually creates a chase, which is governed by skill), etc.

Now, what does a good pilot needs to do that AND attack? Full Throttle, Tricky Target, Defensive driving, Brilliant Evasion... all in the EotE and AoR Pilot tree. Of course he should have a good Strain stat to keep takings two maneuvers, and obviously every other Pilot talent will help him score that one hit that will take his rival out before he takes him out.

I think Doc was referring to Action as opposed to Maneuver.

I personally have no problem with the rules of space combat regarding PC chances of survival. Then I have to admit that my player characters have only used multy-crewed starships such as YT-1300, YT-24000 etc.

I have never run space combat between small fighters like X-Wings vs TIE for example. These kind of ships, looking at their stats, seem like glass cannons, which I think it goes according to what we see in the movies. So again, it does not seem to me that the rules need modifications in that sense.

Said that, I think that what some of you are proposing in this thread for EM and GtA in the form of an Advanced EM for smaller crafts is the way to go. From all the things in this game regarding space combat, besides shields, EM and GtA are the ones I will modify to make them come more into the game.

One thing could be to change EM to apply to silhouette 4-5 starships, and have a slightly better AEM (or something, I like Super Dodge ) for silhouette 2-3, that adds another upgrade or an increase instead... but then silhouette 2-3 becomes mightily difficult to hit for capital ships, more difficult than they already are ... so perhaps it should apply only to similarly sized vehicles, i.e. silhouette 2-4 or 2-5?

I'm not sure any of these suggestions presented here will really improve the game as such, it will only results in larger dice pools and perhaps a round or two longer survival, at best, in some cases.

I think the fix I'd use is just to allow the pilot to spend System Strain to add setback dice to the attacker's roll. Two points of System Strain per die, max dice equals the pilot's skill.

Then I'd do the same thing with melee combat (only with regular Strain).

It doesn't allow them to do this regularly, but it gives that little edge of survivability the character might need.

The problem with doing it as an action is that it doesn't really solve anything for a starfighter, it just prolongs the inevitable. A pilot shouldn't have to spend every action dodging to survive.

I would like to get back on this boat as we started discussing the actual play and not rule lawyering. I think you are mistaken, a pilot's action should always be about survival. As formally said, a pilot needs wits... he needs to know to move in and out of his rival's range, increasing speed and moving away (which usually creates a chase, which is governed by skill), etc.

Now, what does a good pilot needs to do that AND attack? Full Throttle, Tricky Target, Defensive driving, Brilliant Evasion... all in the EotE and AoR Pilot tree. Of course he should have a good Strain stat to keep takings two maneuvers, and obviously every other Pilot talent will help him score that one hit that will take his rival out before he takes him out.

I'm a big proponent for the RAW, as you'll probably find out. But I wanted to kick into this one because it's taken a more constructive and realistic (as in the proposed rules make some sense within the current mechanical framework) turn then is typical. It's far more common to see someone completely rewrite the rules almost from the ground up, adding desired features at the expense of creating something that isn't really in line with the Devs overall intent for the mechanics, playability, and system.

Adding a more focused maneuver/action for agile fighters, airspeeders and landspeeders is doable IF you can balance it with all the things you've mentioned and still make it work within the system. That's the real booger of the whole exercise, you need something that adds to what's already going on without obviously outperforming it, and conform to many situations.

So far in the game there are three Defensive Driving talents, so by taking Fringer, Driver and Pilot you can increase your starship's defence by 3.

Tricky Target isn't ranked, I believe, so silhouette decrease is pretty much set - unless you add attachments, at which point you can decrease it more, which for a starfighter is pretty nifty, although their limited hard points can make this a difficult decision to make. This will increase the difficulty to hit your ship, if not initially from other starfighters, at least from silhouette 4+ ships.

Now, this combined with a manoeuvre that also increases difficulty can make combat drag on. Particularly if this manoeuvre's difficulty increase is based on skill ranks (whether per rank or half rank), the dice pool will become ridiculous, at least if combined with the above talents (and attachment) and adding in setback dice generated from advantages and/or threats... plus perhaps environmental effects that can affect this too.

Going for upgrades might seem better then, but I'd be hesitant about too many of them too as there's a limit to how many Despairs you want to risk, and narrate ...

I think I am going to make these two changes to my game. It gives my pilot something to use his high skill for, let's him choose how reckless he wants to fly and could punish him for being too bold with system strain. In addition it hinders the gunners as well, which I think represents the maneuvers the pilot is taking during combat. Thoughts?

Evasive Maneuvers
-When using this maneuvers you may choose an amount of purple dice up to you skill in pilot, make a pilot check with that chosen difficulty (if destiny or other factors upgrade this, the chosen dice remain unchanged for the rest of the check).

-If successful attacks against and from your ship use the same purple dice pool instead difficulty based on silhouette difference. If your ship is 2 sizes smaller than the attacking ship upgrade the difficulty of attacks directed at you by one step for each size difference greater than 1, if your ship is 2 sizes larger than the attacking ship, upgrade the attackers dice pool by one step for each size difference greater than 1.

-If you fail the check, ships use the standard amount of dice based on ships silhouette, but the attacks made from your ship still suffer the penalty to hit.

--Threats should be used to generally cause strain to the ship in this case showing the pilot pushing it past it's limits

Gain the Advantage
-The pilot would have to make the same check as above to successfully gain the advantage on an opponent.

So,

Here is my $.02

The main problem as pointed out by others is Starfighters, they just don't feel like dangerous predators and are instead just too weak and too easy to beat. Why would anyone ever build a ship without a gunner and a turret? My proposed solution(s) are much shorter, simpler, and do not create a fundamentally different way of playing.

Evasive Maneuvers: Just fine, except that firing a turret from a ship taking evasive maneuvers would be VERY difficult. So, in addition to the normal effects you may not aim or take other accuracy enhancing maneuvers when firing from a ship taking evasive maneuvers. If you want accurate fire, you need to keep it relatively straight and level.

Gain the Advantage: The action itself makes sense, except for the fact that it is the very definition of an opposed test and you can't actually SHOOT once you are in position anyway. So, allow both pilots to use their action and make it a competitive check (the one moving later in initiative order will have already spent their action). The relative maneuverability of the two ships will make a difference now, as will speed. The effects of Gain the Advantage are the same (allowing you to ignore the effects of Evasive Maneuvers, including the limitations on aiming), except that the ship that Gained the Advantage may also make an attack using any fixed forward firing weapons as an incidental.

Between the two, snub fighters will find themselves fighting for advantage, and taking snap shots whenever they gain the upper hand. Ships with turrets will either need to accept the disadvantage of non-aimed fire, give up Evasive Maneuvers, or find some way to successfully Gain the Advantage on attacking fighters (think Millennium Falcon). A ship that finds itself hopelessly outclassed in terms of maneuverability/piloting can still just choose to fire as an action without attempting to outperform their opponent in GtA, which I imagine would be something like just turning the guns towards the enemy without making an attempt to dodge incoming fire.

A dogfight between two fighters will see them fighting to GtA, with the loser taking fire and being unable to return fire that round (because they used their action on GtA), which would look very "cinematic". An attack on a turret ship would leave the snub at a distinct advantage in terms of accuracy, while allowing them to pick attack vectors that allow them to avoid one or more guns, but they would still be vulnerable to a ship that simply relies on its shields and armor and shoots back with aimed accurate fire.

The first issue I see with that is that it removes some of the Oomph of the Master Pilot talent...

Gain the Advantage: The action itself makes sense, except for the fact that it is the very definition of an opposed test and you can't actually SHOOT once you are in position anyway. So, allow both pilots to use their action and make it a competitive check (the one moving later in initiative order will have already spent their action). The relative maneuverability of the two ships will make a difference now, as will speed. The effects of Gain the Advantage are the same (allowing you to ignore the effects of Evasive Maneuvers, including the limitations on aiming), except that the ship that Gained the Advantage may also make an attack using any fixed forward firing weapons as an incidental.

Between the two, snub fighters will find themselves fighting for advantage, and taking snap shots whenever they gain the upper hand. Ships with turrets will either need to accept the disadvantage of non-aimed fire, give up Evasive Maneuvers, or find some way to successfully Gain the Advantage on attacking fighters (think Millennium Falcon). A ship that finds itself hopelessly outclassed in terms of maneuverability/piloting can still just choose to fire as an action without attempting to outperform their opponent in GtA, which I imagine would be something like just turning the guns towards the enemy without making an attempt to dodge incoming fire.

A dogfight between two fighters will see them fighting to GtA, with the loser taking fire and being unable to return fire that round (because they used their action on GtA), which would look very "cinematic". An attack on a turret ship would leave the snub at a distinct advantage in terms of accuracy, while allowing them to pick attack vectors that allow them to avoid one or more guns, but they would still be vulnerable to a ship that simply relies on its shields and armor and shoots back with aimed accurate fire.

Like Jegergryte said, it does lessen the quality of the Master Pilot talent.

But my biggest grip is that it may force someone into doing something he doesn't want to... if the GM uses this maneuver against a player, then the player looses his action to fight the GtA when he would have done something else with his action, like an attack on a special target freighter with the rebel turncoat.

Remember that action order is not static and that you can move back and forth from spot to spot... People should use this to play the system more instead of wanting to change it. In my games, the initiative order usually looks something like this :

- Player spot 1;

- Player spot 2;

- NPC spot 1;

- Player spot 3;

- NPC spot 2;

- NPC spot 3;

- Player spot 4;

- NPC spot 4.

So if we are dogfighting, I would probably stay out at medium range. Then I'd pick "Player spot 4", do 1-2 maneuvers to get into close range and my action would be to "Get the Advantage". Next turn, I take "Player Spot 1", my action is to attack my target, then take 1-2 maneuvers to go back out of range. If I have a fast starfighter, i'll probably do 1 move and 1 Evasive maneuver to be harder to hit. One of my teammates would probably do the same thing but on the other round to alternate. The only unavailable target is "NPC spot 4" since he can try to break your GtA before you attack. Using this technique will have you shooting once every other round, but will probably increase the odds of a successful hit and decrease the odds of getting hit myself.

Anyway, for those that still think it's easier to hit in space combat then on ground combat, you can go see my number crunching on this tread.

I probably killed the tread because no one came to argue my numbers... I'm still waiting for somebody to tell my I'm wrong.

Kudos!

I think I did not make myself clear. You don't have to fight GtA, it can be resolved as "normal", the competitive roll is for those times when you do want to fight it. If you don't compete, you can perform actions as normal. The major change is that a ship that successfully GtA is able to fire forward firing weapons in the same round, which helps snub fighters overcome the enormous action advantage a crewed ship has.