If you make it 4 red dice, 3 blue dice and 4 black dice on the front arc and a VSD 2 on the sides, I think that will be pretty accurate
Super Star Destroyer discussion thread
Are those from canon or Legacies sources?
Depends on if the source books are canon or not. But if you want to go with on screen evidence only, how many guns does a ISD actually have? For that matter if we go with that, then the GSD shouldn't exist let alone have guns since we never see it on screen.
So long as the ship (with all arcs considered) is noticeably more powerful than an ISD with upgrades equipped , it will probably be a satisfying game piece.
Which is an opinion that not everyone shares. IMO unless it's considerably more powerful then a ISD then it's not satisfying.
You don't think a middle ground could be found?
For an Executor class Star Destroyer , no. There is no middle ground that will IMO let you have that ship as it should be in this game. The ship is supposed to be massive in both size and firepower and as such won't fit in the scale that Armada has.
That doesn't mean however they can't do like they did with the Raider and put some sort of SSD into the game.
It would be like X-Wing without the Falcon.
I don't agree at all. Armada with out a ISD would be like X-Wing without an X-Wing or the Falcon. But the SSD is not nearly as iconic as the ISD is. If it never makes it into the game then there is again IMO nothing missing.
Also I will point out once again, that this is exactly the same argument people tried to make for the ISD in X-Wing.
I'll also point out that I used IMO a ton in this post, because everything about this debate is all about personal opinion.
Some people would be fine with scaling down a SSD enough to make it fit into the game, others however feel that you'd have to neuter the ship to make it fit, and would rather have nothing instead of a neutered SSD. Seeing how this is a matter of opinion neither side is really right or wrong.
I know some will trot out the tired old 'well don't get it then' as if that was really an option, because it will have upgrade cards we'll want, and it's not like I can stop someone else from using it.
Edited by VanorDMDepends on if the source books are canon or not. But if you want to go with on screen evidence only, how many guns does a ISD actually have? For that matter if we go with that, then the GSD shouldn't exist let alone have guns since we never see it on screen.
True, if FFG made stats for only what was seen the GSD would have something like 2 red dice in every direction and a singular missile battery. The point I made here is that FFG is not beholden to representing starships based only on their canon performance. FFG has decided the ISDs will be powerful, so they are, even if they only ever fired at rocks and one blockade runner outside of Endor. If FFG has decided a Super Star destroyer will be real, it will be scaled accordingly in proportion to its points. How powerful that Super Star Destroyer will be, I think, depends on where the ceiling is going to be for anything larger than standard play. If the game goes to 800 points, what's the use of a 700 point Super Star Destroyer with no fleet?
Even if the SSD ends up at 300, that's 100 more points of Wave 2 standard to equip it with and however-much-else for a hypothetical Epic mode of play.
Which is an opinion that not everyone shares. IMO unless it's considerably more powerful then a ISD then it's not satisfying.
don't agree at all. Armada with out a ISD would be like X-Wing without an X-Wing or the Falcon. But the SSD is not nearly as iconic as the ISD is. If it never makes it into the game then there is again IMO nothing missing.
This is, as you say, a matter of opinion.
But one fact is this: If FFG at all considers anything bigger than standard play, one question to be asked will be, "What do we need to bring the Executor in?".
I cannot imagine FFG announcing a bigger mode of play without bringing the Executor into it. It is the only canon capital ship bigger than the Imperial. If FFG expands the scope at all people will wonder why they bothered in the first place if the bigger ship isn't the Executor.
Edited by NorsehoundAlso I will point out once again, that this is exactly the same argument people tried to make for the ISD in X-Wing.
I still disagree here. How can it be, if I disagree with the ISD in X-Wing but feel the Super Star Destroyer isn't out of place here? If it was the exact same argument wouldn't I be supporting both?
You cannot do an Imperial Star Destroyer in X-Wing without adding new mechanics. Putting aside the representational size, the Imperial carries a large compliment of fighters and a superstructure that can absorb an enormous amount of damage... from starfighters. To say nothing of the multiple weapons batteries. You will need new mechanics to cover these aspects of the Star Destroyer, as well as answering how a one-man starfighter squadron would "win" against an ISD.
Anything less and you end up with the Raider, which we have now.
But in Armada, you do not need the new mechanics to make the ship function. A Super Star Destroyer can really just be a bigger star destroyer. The only changes I can think of from a standard ship would be more firing arcs and sectional damage cards. Else everything works just fine. Anything more and you're seeking to make a SUper Star Destroyer more needlessly complicated than it has to be.
So to me bringing the SSD into Armada isn't as mechanically complicated as introducing the CR-90 (or anything bigger than a CR-90) to X-Wing. To me, the SSD is like bringing in the Decimator into the game. Like small ships the Decimator flies by Flight Path, has one attack per turn, answers to attack and defense dice and so on. Difference is Decimator has no agility dice, which help it stand out.
You don't need new mechanics like an ISD would in X-Wing in order for it not to be the raider. So I don't think this is the same argument.
Edited by NorsehoundThe point I made here is that FFG is not beholden to representing starships based only on their canon performance.
Sure, and they have to somehow translate that power into a game mechanic. I think based on what we know for example the ISD will feel as powerful as it should compared to other ships in the game. IMO I don't think they can do the same with the Executor without as you mentioned, making it a 700 point ship in a 800 point game. But again that's just my opinion.
But one fact is this: If FFG at all considers anything bigger than standard play, one question to be asked will be, "What do we need to bring the Executor in?".
Considering that FFG considers Epic tournaments to always be casual events, so there will never be a Epic Store Championship, let alone higher levels... I would be a bit surprised if they make a Epic Armada rule set.
I still disagree here. How can it be, if I disagree with the ISD in X-Wing but feel the Super Star Destroyer isn't out of place here? If it was the exact same argument wouldn't I be supporting both?
No, because really the whole argument becomes one of degrees. How much scaling down is someone willing to accept to get a given ship into the game. Some people are willing to accept more then others.
You cannot do an Imperial Star Destroyer in X-Wing without adding new mechanics.
Sure you can, the ISD could work with the standard Epic rules for X-Wing. It may not work well IMO or yours, but mechanically there's nothing to stop it. A lot of people effectively argued that what we now have in the Raider, but using the ISD model would of been completely acceptable.
A Super Star Destroyer can really just be a bigger star destroyer.
Sure, but then use a smaller 'canon' version of a SSD, and not the Executor.
I don't really get all the vocal opposition to it. Let the people that would like it have their Executor. Those of you that don't like it aren't being forced to buy it right? And if they add an "opponents permission required" tag to it like Forgeworld did to their large WH40K stuff, you won't even have to play against it. Everybody happy.
Those of you that don't like it aren't being forced to buy it right?
Yeah we kinda are, because they will have some really good upgrade cards in it, cards that will be useful on other ships. So everyone will have a good reason to buy one, even if we don't want it.
Plus there's no way to stop someone else from using it, so even we never use it ourselves, we're still going to have to see it on the table. There's no way FFG is going to add a "opponents permission" tag to it. It's not like Forgeworld which is a 3rd party supplier, and one that doesn't have to have LFL/Disney approve things.
I'm thinking that they could be packaged like the epic X-wing ships; one huge ship, introducing 'epic play' for armada, with all sorts of fun new rules.
The biggest problem I feel with it would be the rebels lack or epic ships. They don't really do that lolz
I'm thinking that they could be packaged like the epic X-wing ships; one huge ship, introducing 'epic play' for armada, with all sorts of fun new rules.
The biggest problem I feel with it would be the rebels lack or epic ships. They don't really do that lolz
They have the Bulwark-class Battlecruiser and the Viscount-class Star Defender iirc, both capable of going toe-to-toe with any SSD. And A-wings, of course.
Guess I'll keep the fire lit a bit longer...I want an SSD!
FWIW... I was discussing the Raider and how it may be the largest ship FFG produces.
Here's some pictures of it next to a VSD and GSD.
Those of you that don't like it aren't being forced to buy it right?
Just like those Imperial X-Wing players that didnt like the Raider weren't forced to buy it you mean?
Unless they want to use the TIE Advanced ofc, or get the Palpatine card, and so on.
Or the way every competitive Rebel player was forced to get the CR90 for C3-P0 etc.
Sadly, this argument doesnt work in FFG games.
So now that we established the smart arguments and reached the same standards still as before can this thread die?
Those of you that don't like it aren't being forced to buy it right?
Just like those Imperial X-Wing players that didnt like the Raider weren't forced to buy it you mean?
Unless they want to use the TIE Advanced ofc, or get the Palpatine card, and so on.
Or the way every competitive Rebel player was forced to get the CR90 for C3-P0 etc.
Sadly, this argument doesnt work in FFG games.
By that logic FFG should probably stop bringing out ships alltogether, for risk of some people not liking a ship but being 'forced' to buy it for an upgrade card lmao. No, that argument is just not valid.
There are 3 things holding back the SSD in Armada:
Size
Combat power
Rebel equivalent
Rebel equivalent: also a SSD, the Lusankya
Having never heard of it before,reading about it did not make it sound that difficult to take out. Based on the article I do not think that they would break the game.
My view is that a "Epic Armada" game might allow the fielding of both ISDs and Executors - same rules, but scaled up - with an Executor the size of Armada ISDs (and with a similar statline) - but with "epic scale ISDs" having a statline comparable to one of those Scum & Villainy ships.
There are 3 things holding back the SSD in Armada:
Size
Combat power
Rebel equivalent
Rebel equivalent: also a SSD, the Lusankya
Having never heard of it before,reading about it did not make it sound that difficult to take out. Based on the article I do not think that they would break the game.
it was very hard to take out. They hit it by surprise with massive waves of torpedos refitted onto freighters. The Lusankya had no way of knowing they were armed until several vollies were in space.
And when i say massive, i mean MASSIVE waves of torpedos (hundreds....we're talking vollies equivalent to the amount put out by tens of fighter squadrons at a time). They also got fired from out of the Lusankyas return fire range due to some fancy telemetry shenanigans.
On top of that, it was fighting an ISD-2, a VSD-2 and a war cruiser that was right up in it's engine grill, and still took them both out with pretty much trivial ease. it didnt have most of it's escort fighters with it either.
believe me, if you think it wasnt too hard you need to read the novel. Only Plot Armour allowed it to happen at all!
Edited by ExtropiaTo add some perspective....the amount of torpedos hitting it was probably about 20-30 black dice worth per turn, based on fighter attacks. Which it couldnt return fire on for quite a while.
NOOOOO!!! KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!
This thread no longer deserves to live...
NOOOOO!!! KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!
This thread no longer deserves to live...
It will never die. I have come to accept our resident zombie.
The thread will die when either FFG announces they have a Super Star Destroyer planned, or someone corners one of the FFG employees at a convention and gets a straight up answer that it is too big.
It is one of the few remaining on-screen capital ships yet to be depicted for Armada. Until conclusively disproven (by word of God from the creative team, not from an fan's aggrieved sense of scale), the possibility will always remain open to some of the fans.
I do wonder how many will proclaim they'll ragequit the engine if FFG does make one.
I wont ragequit, i just wont buy it because it'll look stupid with the scaling. Purely personal decision on my part, doesn't mean the games is suddenly bad.
NOOOOO!!! KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!
This thread no longer deserves to live...
It will never die. I have come to accept our resident zombie.
They could at least make a secondary thread or something that isn't 25 pages long...
What's wrong with a longer thread?
FWIW... I'd rather see the discussion continue in this thread then see another one started.