good work Hothie, so u finished 3rd? beating two double IG lists is a great sign. sounds like without moving 2nd ur odds of winning that matchup goes down significantly? so u r forgetting to use lonewolf occasionally and still winning? stay on target earning its spot in the list?

It's definitely more difficult if you move first. So I may drop ID from B for an init bid.

Yep, forgetting lone wolf and still winning. In game vs 3 interceptors, lone wolf wasn't doing anything for me except giving me false hope.

Stay on target is great vs lists that move before me, so I don't want to take it off of D just yet. I didn't use it much today, but honestly, just having it confounded my opponents enough to be worth 2 points.

I've been thinking about my loss to Chris's triple interceptor list on Saturday. He flew masterfully, arc dodging like a champ. But I also flew it wrong. I used B to block his carnor early, and that limited my shots. I only have 2 shots each round, so I have to make sure I'm using them more wisely. I think I should have flown more like I did against Rich earlier in the day, where I split up better to make sure I was covering more board space. I need to work on keeping my IGs apart more as well, to keep from getting blocked in.

Some comments on our game...

Ok, so this is my game with Major Juggler. He was flying IG88B and D, both with Outmaneuver, HLC, Autothrusters, IG title, and FCS. I gave him the initiative so that I could better react to his moves with Stay on Target and Advanced Sensors. He set up with his 2 IG's facing each other. I set up in the opposite corner, so that I could go fast with D and slower with B. I took B 1 forward, not knowing what he was going to do, and I took D 3 forward and boosted.

So, in retrospect I should have brought B out a little to put myself in better position for the following turn. 1 left bank after 88D's 2RT would have done it. I think this mistake almost cost me the game.

Turn 2.

Yay for Autothrusters vs 3 dice!

My D is like a fish in the barrel now, as you can see in the above picture. He had no real good move other than 1 forward to put him where he is. I probably should have focused instead of evaded to force more damage on D (need focus to negate Sensor Jammers) but I don't remember how the turn played out.

This was certainly key. I wonder what would have happened if I had Segnor's left with D instead? Then your B might have been the one without a shot instead. Hm... rabbit trails.

The 1 FWD on my B here was predictable, as a certain shot on your D. My D had nowhere to go, so it was speed bump mode for him!

I'm wondering if I should have 3 left Sengor'ed here. Hm. The engagement the following round was probably better for me though, since we were both stressed at range 3. Jammers is nasty though when jousting, because it is hard to have focus when attacking, so Mangler + Jammer may be more effective in this end game scenario than HLC + FCS.

Good news for me: I have HLC + FCS and a pre-existing TL. Bad news: one hit per attack is automatically evaded via sensor jammer. And Doug has Lone Wolf. We both have autothrusters which mitigates some damage typically. I am very happy to trade at 1:1 at this point especially given that I have the hit point lead.

This actually isn't a terrible position at all for me. Focus negates Sensor Jammer, so I just have to get through his Lone Wolf. I have 4 dice with TL+F vs 3 defensive dice with focus and lone wolf. I will have to run numbers later, but without Lone Wolf that is only a 12% chance of completely missing, and 1.64 damage on average. I ended up getting 1 damage on Doug, and he got 2 back on me.

Looking at this again now, another option would have been to right Sengor's loop. But then you would have focus on attack and I would not, so a 4K looks like it was still the right move.

Also, you forgot to mention that you still had a shot on me, and got me down to 2 hull at the end - technically you still could have gotten a draw with some more direct hits. It was certainly a close game.

I should mention that I did have a vassal game yesterday. Between the dice, my flying, and my opponent's comments it was a very frustrating game. But it did serve to remind me about blocking and getting blocked. I ran Kath with EH and K4, Kavil with VI, EU, ABT, Unhinged, and Achmed (thug with genius, Proton Bomb, ABT.) Y's tend to melt quickly to Double IGs.

I played a game tonight with Yin and Yang vs a Brath/Kath build. I ended up winning, but I only got one shot off with D, my offensive one, before he died. But B's Mangler was wrecking him, and the defensive combo was working well.

So, I'm thinking about dropping D for something different. I currently have 51 points on D, plus 1 for an init bid. So I could go up to 52 points. I want to leave B as is:

B with Lone Wolf, AT, Jammer, Mangler.

I have been thinking I need to fit Palob in there to make Jammer better. So:

Palob with Opportunist, Blaster turret, Recon Specialist, Moldy Crow title is 34 points, which would only leave 18.

Theorist is a fan of ARush on IGs, so maybe I put ARush on B and do something like this:

B with ARush, AT, Jammer, Mangler (47)
Palob with Opportunist, Blaster Turret, RecSpec, Moldy Crow (34)
Ndru with Lone Wolf. (19)

That might be what I try out next.

I really like that Palob. I have a list with him, but I'm going to go with k4 droid instead of recon spec. Its a good fit with opportunist and he should have enough focus tokens with his ability.

I've been thinking a lot about dual IGs, running them and beating them. Their vulnerabilities are:

1. Not getting shots. With 2 guns on the table, not getting shots is a bad thing for them.

Accomplishing this feat can be done in 3 ways: stress, collisions, and arc dodging. All 3 of these were in effect in my game Saturday against Chris. IGs don't like stress, as it cuts their options down considerably. And with them only having a primary arc, arc dodging, especially on ships that move after them, can be huge.

2. Direct damage. They are built to evade attacks, but ways to deal direct damage that get around those defensive abilities tend to chew through those 4 shields and 4 hull fairly quickly.

3. Action denial. Again, whether through stress or collisions, action denial tends to hurt them. Fcs and AdvS tend to help with this.

4. Swarms. Lots of shots will eventually get through their defenses.

So with all of this in mind, I'm thinking about running this:

Kath with mangler, gunner, vi, engine

Oicunn with rebel captive, Darth Vader.

I've been thinking a lot about dual IGs, running them and beating them. Their vulnerabilities are:

1. Not getting shots. With 2 guns on the table, not getting shots is a bad thing for them.

Accomplishing this feat can be done in 3 ways: stress, collisions, and arc dodging. All 3 of these were in effect in my game Saturday against Chris. IGs don't like stress, as it cuts their options down considerably. And with them only having a primary arc, arc dodging, especially on ships that move after them, can be huge.

2. Direct damage. They are built to evade attacks, but ways to deal direct damage that get around those defensive abilities tend to chew through those 4 shields and 4 hull fairly quickly.

3. Action denial. Again, whether through stress or collisions, action denial tends to hurt them. Fcs and AdvS tend to help with this.

4. Swarms. Lots of shots will eventually get through their defenses.

So with all of this in mind, I'm thinking about running this:

Kath with mangler, gunner, vi, engine

Oicunn with rebel captive, Darth Vader.

This list looks good against Ig's (good hitpoint advantage, guaranteed damage, easy stress from Kath) but would it stack up against the rest of the meta? I think rebel control wrecks this squad, as does BBBBZ.

Against control, I have a rear arc and a turret, so I will still be getting shots off. Against bbbbz, I would have to try and go to time, I think, cause I don't imagine I would be able to kill off enough ships quickly enough. The only thing I think I would change is Vader for Determination and either dauntless or seismic on oicunn. I could go either way.

I should mention that I did have a vassal game yesterday. Between the dice, my flying, and my opponent's comments it was a very frustrating game. But it did serve to remind me about blocking and getting blocked. I ran Kath with EH and K4, Kavil with VI, EU, ABT, Unhinged, and Achmed (thug with genius, Proton Bomb, ABT.) Y's tend to melt quickly to Double IGs.

I played a game tonight with Yin and Yang vs a Brath/Kath build. I ended up winning, but I only got one shot off with D, my offensive one, before he died. But B's Mangler was wrecking him, and the defensive combo was working well.

So, I'm thinking about dropping D for something different. I currently have 51 points on D, plus 1 for an init bid. So I could go up to 52 points. I want to leave B as is:

B with Lone Wolf, AT, Jammer, Mangler.

I have been thinking I need to fit Palob in there to make Jammer better. So:

Palob with Opportunist, Blaster turret, Recon Specialist, Moldy Crow title is 34 points, which would only leave 18.

Theorist is a fan of ARush on IGs, so maybe I put ARush on B and do something like this:

B with ARush, AT, Jammer, Mangler (47)

Palob with Opportunist, Blaster Turret, RecSpec, Moldy Crow (34)

Ndru with Lone Wolf. (19)

That might be what I try out next.

http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/231444/kaths-booty-got-back

I had gone completely different after reading the post; I hadn't given Palob Oppertunist, instead I gave him Vet instincts and assigned a body guard Z-95 to ensure he gets millage. I never had any luck in Ndru so I opted for a concussion missle instead; with the intention being that he would simply either have the option to focus and body guard either Kath or Palob, steal a focus and Target lock for a early game blast. With the oppoments focus less able to be spent on defence. Issue is the HWK loses an offensive dice per turn in order to benifit from greater pilot skill, though arguelby it becomes much more tanky as a result; a remarkable bullet magent for Kath.

That being said, the Z-95 is quite a pricey body guard so it might be better practice to not take missles and instead opt for Moldy Crow to ensure he has a body guard counter every turn essentally.

I've been thinking a lot about dual IGs, running them and beating them. Their vulnerabilities are:

1. Not getting shots. With 2 guns on the table, not getting shots is a bad thing for them.

Accomplishing this feat can be done in 3 ways: stress, collisions, and arc dodging. All 3 of these were in effect in my game Saturday against Chris. IGs don't like stress, as it cuts their options down considerably. And with them only having a primary arc, arc dodging, especially on ships that move after them, can be huge.

2. Direct damage. They are built to evade attacks, but ways to deal direct damage that get around those defensive abilities tend to chew through those 4 shields and 4 hull fairly quickly.

3. Action denial. Again, whether through stress or collisions, action denial tends to hurt them. Fcs and AdvS tend to help with this.

4. Swarms. Lots of shots will eventually get through their defenses.

So with all of this in mind, I'm thinking about running this:

Kath with mangler, gunner, vi, engine

Oicunn with rebel captive, Darth Vader.

I gotta be honest, I'm thinking my Oicunn plus mini-swarm is a solid counter to IGs. Or rather, a tough control ship plus a ton of little guns forces 2-3 ship builds to make tough choices.

Control effects make it easier for your small ships to hit and small ships can help drive the enemy into ideal firing arcs. If you focus on the swarm, you're leaving yourself vulnerable to control effects (and making the end game a nightmare) and if you focus on the control ship, you're giving the swarm free reign to shred your 1-3 super valuable ships.

It flies differently but the idea was roughly the same with Carnor's Cavalry (2 x BH plus Carnor with the trimmings) - ignore the hard to hit carnor and pay for it later or chase a masterful arc dodger while the BH pummel you with impunity.

On a separate, I'd be curious if we'll start seeing more 4 ship rebel lists with the attack dice to break high agility. Be fun to see!

Personally I'm a fan of leechos with cluster missiles alongside that Palob build. It's easy to get a 2 x 3 Attack shot both with focus, and he can often draw some heat off palob in the early rounds if they're fielding something particularly weak against his clusters.

One of the reasons I think dual IGs are popular is because of their staying power. They tend to last into the endgame, and they can still deal lots of damage there. So, to me, running Palob alongside Leachos is 2 ships that can easily die to 2-3 heavy laser cannon shots. Which means they don't make it into endgame. And even if they did last into endgame, I wouldn't take either of them 1on 1 with an agressor. So, although building small ship scum builds is fun, I think you have to be weary of running them through the entire game, especially over the course of a tournament.

Hey hothie, seeing as you've considered every possible option with the IG's do you feel that theyre just not enough to deal with the meta or TOOOO many weaknesses?

Im not necessarily defending them as I've had little success with them against small turreted ships and high ps arc dodge, and great success against the overall Meta... But you've seemed to put hours on hours of thought into this and yet you're leaning back towards your original?

May i ask, is it the many weaknesses of the Battle Droid Tandem that turns you away or the sheer firepower and strength of Kathcimator that favors your liking ??

I think it's the too many weaknesses that is making me turn away from them. There are just too many ways to make them less efficient. They are good ships, but I'm thinking that there are just too many types of squads that can beat them consistently in order to make them Tier 1.

I have a big test this weekend, playing against Sable Gryphon running a Scum Boba and IG with VI, so we'll see if I can pull that off or not.

Kath

Vi

Mangler

Tactician

Engines

Oicunn

Vader

Rebel Cap

Moff for survivability or dauntless

Tactician Jam

added survivability and more stressssss

Played against two IGs tonight BC. They brought kath down to 2 hull and oicunn was hardly touched as they more or less had a choice to either chew through 19 hp while getting double stressed every round or try kath first which they attempted, oicunn had large success as he smashed every turn but 1 winning 2-0. Next, as always, we switched sides of the table and he promptly beat me with 1 dead kath, dying on the last turn with oicunn down to 9H and no crew..

I tried rebel captive on Kath instead of gunner, and I found that I just could not get damage through at all, so that is why I went with gunner. That, and the distinct possibility of double stress in either arc, but especially in front arc.

2 more vassal games tonight with Yin/Yang.

I played against Adam running Airen, Dutch with Ion, and 3 Bandits with Concussion missiles.

I arc dodged his Bandits early, on the turn he was hoping to use his missiles. I took out Dutch second round of combat, than a bandit next round, and he conceded because he had only hit me for 1 damage at that point.

Then the second game I played against some guy named Paul Heaver. I can put pics and analysis up maybe tomorrow of this one. He was running Fel and RAC. He ended up winning, but there was a turn midgame where I could have turned it around, i think. Oh well, it was mainly more practice for Sunday, and my game vs Sable.

Paul Heaver? Never heard of him. Was he any good? ;-)

Paul Heaver? Never heard of him. Was he any good? ;-)

Isn't he that guy who walks dogs professionally and has been winning dog shows all over the country? I also heard he uses the command "stay on target" instead of the classic "stay" What a rebel.

Played a game with JFunk today. I ran Yin/Yang, and he ran sozin's vrill and 2 daggers with tactician list.

I was able to trap vrill for a few turns against the board edge with B, while D pounded on him. I took out Vrill and hurt one of his daggers at the cost of D. B then finished off that Dagger, so it came down to his other Dagger with 3 shields and 3 hull vs my B with 1 shield and 4 hull. He was having a hard time even hitting, even with fcs. It was getting late, and I ended up flying B off of the board. I think if we were on the table I would have chosen my maneuver differently to play it out, but I had learned what I needed to know, plus I had a party to get ready for, so I didn't mind.

The tactician was good, but not as game-changing as I thought it might be. He was able to put stress on me, but I was still getting shots off, so I adjusted well. And with B's ability, even if I missed, I got a second shot. I was in control of the game at the end, so I felt good about the squad. He liked it, and saw some of the beauty in it while he was playing against it.

Just finished my game against Sable Gryphon. This game was for the chance to play against StarSlinger for entry into the Team Covenant Aces league.

I was running Yin and Yang. Sable was running his Store Championship winning squad of:

Boba Fett with VI, Tactician, Engine, Seismic X2, Andrasta
IG88B with HLC, Advanced Sensors, AT

We set up like this:

I usually start out with my B in the middle and D on the outside because I want my opponent to go after B first while D flanks with his hlc. I did a 3 fwd and boost with D, while B slow rolls with a 1 fwd. He did the same with his ships. his B did a 3 fwd and boost while Fett did 1 fwd, which looked like this:

Here I wanted to keep the engagement range 3, while also making him come to me through the rocks. So I did 3 right turn Sloops with both of mine to stay to the outside, while he came into the asteroid field.

He did manage to put 1 damage on D (3v5 with focus and AT, rolled 4 blanks.), but it set up a good next round range engagement for me:

My plan going into the game was to take out Fett first, but since his Fett did a 3 bank, crashing into my D, I now had 2 shots on his B, and I was at Range 1. So when his B missed his shot, he didn't get another one. So I put 2 shots on his B, dealing 6 damage, taking it down to 2 hull. Now I had to try and finish it off if I could. This next round was a tough one for me to decide what to do.

I did a 3 right bank Sloop with B, knowing that I was going to eat a seismic, but setting up a shot on his B. Then I did a 1 turn and boost with my D to get in his way, and it worked.

I ended up not hitting him with my B, but he was stressed and pointed in the wrong direction. Next round I did a pre-tl and 3 right turn sloop with D, and a 1 bank with B to get 2 arcs on his D for the kill shot. Unfortunately for him, his Fett chose a 1 bank, which landed him on the rock. That was bad news for him.

My D finished off his IG88, so now it was down to my 2 IG's vs his Fett, and I had only taken 3 damage so far.

I did a 4K with my B, and a 1 turn with my D, keeping his stress but giving me 2 shots to his 1. He took some shields, and I took the rest of his shields and put a Weapon malfunction on him.

Next round B goes 1 fwd, crashing into him, and my D used his Inertial Dampeners to block his 3 turn, which is what he chose. We traded range 1 shots again, and I put a Damaged engine on him.

Then next round my D went 1 fwd to clear a stress, hitting my B, and B did a 3 right turn sloop to get a shot. He did a 3 bank and tried to fix his crit, which he was unsuccessful in doing. This time the Mangler put a damaged cockpit on him, so he was moving first.

He successfully dropped his seismic, hitting both of my ships. D did another 1 turn, and B did a 1 fwd. HLC shot from D and it was over.

I felt good about playing the ranges right, as tactician never kicked in. His D only got 1 shot off before dying, and fett hitting the rock when he did was huge. I felt good about how I flew that one, and the dice worked for me. I never did use Lone wolf or SoT, and I still pulled off the 100-0 win and the chance to play StarSlinger next round. I was honestly going to give up this squad after this game, but it's really working well for me, especially against this squad, a squad designed to take it out.

Kath-outmaneuver, engine, tactician, ID, hlc

Merc-Intimidation, k4, seismic, ID, apl

Merc plays battering ram, reducing agility while Kath can reduce agility as well.

of course, I've also been thinking about the 5AP with 2 Alphas with autothrusters list. I may do my own variant of it. Something like

AP

X3 obsidian

Stabber

Alpha with AT