In the latest Beta update for Force & Destiny, it's written : "When a character modifies attachments on his own lightsaber, he decreases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by two, to a minimum of Simple (–)".

My question : Will there be a similar rule to modify your own armor or weapon ?

Also, is it only one lightsaber or can there be too ? Like a gunslinger, I expect to see a futur talent tree for jedi character who dual wield with "Improved Quick Draw" and the equivalent of "Guns Blazing" to reduce the difficulty of 2 weapon fighting. So both Lightsaber (or both pistols for the gunslinger) are his own special brand weapon, would both be affected by the F&D Beta update rule for modifying your own weapon ?

I posted here because the main question is for ranged or melee users and because it's also the most active forum of the 3.

Thanks

I think the decrease in difficulty for modifying your own lightsaber comes from the fact that your own lightsaber is supposedly made by you, so you know exactly how it works and how it goes together, as opposed to a store bought blaster. I think it may also represent that a Jedi is supposed to have a connection through the force to his weapon, which makes it an extension of him/her self and therefore easy to modify.

I think the decrease in difficulty for modifying your own lightsaber comes from the fact that your own lightsaber is supposedly made by you, so you know exactly how it works and how it goes together, as opposed to a store bought blaster. I think it may also represent that a Jedi is supposed to have a connection through the force to his weapon, which makes it an extension of him/her self and therefore easy to modify.

So a weapon designer who hand machined his weapons doesn't know exactly how it works? Or Luke who uses his father's lightsaber knows how it works because it's home made? Do the rules define "your lightsaber" at all? Is it one you built? Is it the one you're currently using?

Maybe I'm just a crotchety old man who feels like he has been burned by other games, but this feels like power creep and another reason to keep FaD far away from my EotE game. If anything, I'd prefer they make an "easy to modify" rule and apply it to attachments in which they want to be easy to modify. That way they can pick and choose what's easy to modify instead of having to worry about it for balance with everything they create in the future. As it stands, those lightsaber crystals already have a lot of great modifications. Mephite Crystal has 3 Damage +1, 1 crit rating reduction, and one Vicious +1. You get to install two of those Mods before the difficulty is as hard as any mod on a gun.

I get that this is supposed to represent the connection between a Jedi and a lightsaber, I just don't feel that this is a balanced way to do it. Especially when compared to the other systems. Unless I'm running a FaD game, I'll choose to keep that system out of my EotE games.

My question : Will there be a similar rule to modify your own armor or weapon ?

Also, is it only one lightsaber or can there be too ? Like a gunslinger, I expect to see a futur talent tree for jedi character who dual wield with "Improved Quick Draw" and the equivalent of "Guns Blazing" to reduce the difficulty of 2 weapon fighting. So both Lightsaber (or both pistols for the gunslinger) are his own special brand weapon, would both be affected by the F&D Beta update rule for modifying your own weapon ?

As others have mentioned, I think it's supposed to represent a Jedi building their own lightsaber and making modifications as they were building it (or making room for said modifications).

As Jamwes noted, this is a bit of a power creep, and it's tough to really balance out. Personally, I'd either ignore the current ruling or, if you wish, have the character spend a set amount of downtime and make Mechanics checks to build their own weapons to gain such a bonus. Granted, it's a bit imbalanced as the lightsabers in Force and Destiny are "dumbed down" in comparison to the fully modified ones we see, and there isn't exactly a "basic blaster" that you can modify from the ground up with that same versatility...yet.

I posted here because the main question is for ranged or melee users and because it's also the most active forum of the 3.

I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. I do have to wonder if they'll just consolidate the three forums into one at some point. . .

Personally, I think it's a balance thing.

It's a heck of a lot easier to make a Heavy Blaster Rifle terrifying (A lot of attachments with only 2 mods) versus the four to eight mods the lightsaber crystals have to bring them back up.

The heavy rifle is... 3 hard checks, 3 daunting, and maybe 1-2 "impossible" for stuff that's nice to have but not required.

The Illum crystal alone is Hard, Daunting, Impossible, and then five difficult beyond listed scope of the game mods.

Even reducing the difficulty by two doesn't even make all the mods possible RAW.

Its more simple than that, lightsabers are iconic weapons for Force Users, yet most specializations do not have Mechanics as a career skill, the change more likely has to do with wanting to make Force users crafting and modifying their lightsabers easier across all the specializations without mandating everyone take the Mechanics skill.

In regards to the Ilum crystal and two impossible difficulty rolls, Sam Stewart says you simply upgrade the difficulty of the rolls after you reach 5 purple difficulty dice. and Jay Little said its not intended to be above 4 purples , though nothing has been offered in an official FAQ from either.

There are several considerations to be made in favor of the current rules for modifying lightsaber attachments:

1. Lore-based: Lightsabers are near-mystical weapons, and are intensely personal to the Jedi who create & wield them. You don't see Han Solo telling Chewie, "this bowcaster is your life. Don't lose it."

2. Social-balance based: lightsabers are beacons for bounty hunters, Inquisitors, the ISB, and Darth Vader himself. Blasters, by and large, are not. You can wear and wield a blaster openly (and often more effectively) in many more situations than you can a lightsaber.

3. Inherent limitations: The vast majority modification options available to lightsaber attachments, at least right now, are modifications to the crystals themselves.* Given that crystals are attuned to the Force, and that they "match" the Jedi that finds them, this just plain makes sense.

4. Chronology-based: lightsabers in EotE & AoR, while "really good" (but by no means the most powerful weapon on the board, and also the most expensive), were fully kitted out. To get to that level with a FaD lightsaber requires several Mechanics checks, and a good chunk of change on top of whatever costs were incurred to get the 'saber in the first place. This is NOT power creep; it is reverse-engineering a new, but limited, player option.

5. Most lightsaber-using PCs are expected to have a real lightsaber in hand once they reach "Knight Level," or roundabout 150 XP. I don't know about many other play groups, but my players have always had some pretty excellent gear accrued by the time they reached that level in my games. So while a lightsaber is nothing to sneer at, there are other weapons that my Force-sensitive play group would much rather have, and that is the mark of balance: there's no "obvious" choice to be made when selecting weapons, even as Force users.

As a matter of interest, we see a similar "personal" mechanic in the Rigger's Signature Vehicle, and I would take a similar approach to the Jensaarai and their armor (but not their lightsabers). Frankly, I find the mechanic much more satisfying and appealing than Saga Edition's "+1 to attack rolls for self-built lightsabers."

It's not power creep, but it does separate Force-using lightsaber wielders from the rest of the PCs, and IMO, that is okay. The game has done a fantastic job of balancing Force use and avoided the mistake of making starting Jedi/superheroes running around with all the muggle Smugglers, and this Mechanics mechanic, relegated to a single weapon on a PC-by-PC basis, from what I would consider to be an objective viewpoint, does nothing to upset that balance.

*The three exceptions are Curved Hilt for a total of Defensive 1, Extended Hilt for a total of Vicious 1, and Gene Lock for the exploding option (a very expensive, single critical hit at 1,000 credits) . I would be fine house ruling that these attachments do not receive the benefits of the "personal lightsaber" when modifying them, but I can also appreciate the simplicity of keeping them as is. Plus that, they are all a single-mod attachment, not game breaking in the slightest.

The heavy rifle is... 3 hard checks, 3 daunting, and maybe 1-2 "impossible" for stuff that's nice to have but not required.

The Illum crystal alone is Hard, Daunting, Impossible, and then five difficult beyond listed scope of the game mods.

Even reducing the difficulty by two doesn't even make all the mods possible RAW.

Mostly true, except increases in difficulty don't change the "base" difficulty from Hard to Impossible. The base difficulty stays "Hard," even if certain effects add 5 more purple dice to the check. It doesn't become Impossible.

There are several considerations to be made in favor of the current rules for modifying lightsaber attachments:

Thank you Awayputurwpn. You usually bring up a lot of great points. I'll respond to you point by point.

1. Lore-based:

2. Social-balance based:

I'll respectfully disagree with points 1 and 2. What I'm looking for in game rules is a balanced crunch. I understand that there are social reason to not use these weapons (or heavy blasters) but IMHO that is a crutch. It feels like a cop out when game designers say "send bounty hunters after them" to try to balance powerful options. In a game like this there will already be bounty hunters, storm troopers, inquisitors, ect chasing after the players anyway. All that sending these challenges at the players mean is that it's a pre-built adventure/encounter that the players can earn more EX for overcoming. It's not balance, it's part of the fun.

This is a play style thing thing. A narrative system doesn't provide what I'm looking for. It's something that I'll just have to deal with, but it won't stop me for at least discussing the crunch aspects on here. I think that these discussions are great for all of us to look at these new rules and truly understand them.

3. Inherent limitations: The vast majority modification options available to lightsaber attachments, at least right now, are modifications to the crystals themselves.* Given that crystals are attuned to the Force, and that they "match" the Jedi that finds them, this just plain makes sense.

All the more reason to have a rule attached to the crystal attachment, not lightsabers in general. Perhaps have an attainment mechanic for a crystal so that you can declare it yours. Spend an hour and make an average Discipline check, you are now attuned to the crystal until you attune a new one.

/Rant

While we're talking about modifications, I feel that some attachments have too many. I wish that attachments never had more than a few modifications. I'd probably set it at 3 or so. It has always upset me that things like the Augmented Spin Barrel have so many powerful modifications. My Sniper character decided to "downgrade" to a Marksman Barrel from an ASB because it was too powerful fully modded. Also, if they capped the number of mods then we wouldn't be having the discussion about how to keep increasing the difficulty beyond impossible.

/End Rant

4. Chronology-based: lightsabers in EotE & AoR, while "really good" (but by no means the most powerful weapon on the board, and also the most expensive), were fully kitted out. To get to that level with a FaD lightsaber requires several Mechanics checks, and a good chunk of change on top of whatever costs were incurred to get the 'saber in the first place. This is NOT power creep; it is reverse-engineering a new, but limited, player option.

I think I understand where you're coming from, but to me this doesn't work. This is what I experienced when we played around with giving an untrained Jedi a lightsaber pre-FaD. Damage 10, Breach, and Vicious 2 meant that the Jedi was mowing down an enemies (especially minion groups) left and right with no skills, only Agility 3. (We let him use Agility instead of Brawn.)

Sure, there are auto-fire weapons that can also mow down minion groups. However, I feel that there is a difference. Those heavy weapons usually have Cumbersome, which means you're either buying up your Brawn (a stat that otherwise isn't used while shooting), buying Burly talents, or spending precious hard points for a weapon sling or harness. That's an investment. I think we can all agree that rolling Advantages for extra hits can be hard out of the gate, so you need to spend XP in buying up your shooting skills to get more effect out of the weapon. If we want to use social reasons too, then an auto-fire rifle is huge and so much harder to hide on your person (or in your droid) than something that if flashlight sized.

An EotE lightsaber is easy to use once it's in your hands. You can kill plenty of bad guys with it without any more expenditure than the time/money it took to acquire one. Big guns take more expenditure (of XP, HP, and/or cash) to be able to use them. By making it easier to upgrade the new basic lightsabers you're returning the EotE style lightsaber for little more than just the time/money it takes to get the parts. If lack of mechanics on EotE careers is a problem then perhaps they should make a universal Jedi tree that has mechanics. Heck, I'd even be happy(er) with using discipline instead of mechanics for lightsabers.

5. Most lightsaber-using PCs are expected to have a real lightsaber in hand once they reach "Knight Level," or roundabout 150 XP. I don't know about many other play groups, but my players have always had some pretty excellent gear accrued by the time they reached that level in my games. So while a lightsaber is nothing to sneer at, there are other weapons that my Force-sensitive play group would much rather have, and that is the mark of balance: there's no "obvious" choice to be made when selecting weapons, even as Force users.

I agree that a force user should/could have a lightsaber by this point. Which is why I thought the new sabers were created. I could even be convinced that they should have a fully modified one. I'm trying to remember back to when we started our games, but it does seem reasonable to have fairly tricked out gear by 2 months (20xp a week) of play time. The problem I have is with the relative comparative ease that a force user can do this. It makes me feel that force users are special snowflakes who get all the advantages for free.

As a matter of interest, we see a similar "personal" mechanic in the Rigger's Signature Vehicle, and I would take a similar approach to the Jensaarai and their armor (but not their lightsabers). Frankly, I find the mechanic much more satisfying and appealing than Saga Edition's "+1 to attack rolls for self-built lightsabers."

Are you comparing a free player option available to all FaD players to a 10 XP talent limited to a single AoR spec? Reducing the difficulty by two is vastly superior to upgrading once, and that's before you compare the costs of acquiring the ability.

I have no problem with the mechanic. The problem I have is that it's a free upgrade. I agree that it's more flavorful than the Saga self-built version. Unless there are rules for how to determine it is "your" lightsaber (only ones you crafted or attuned to) then it's just free upgrades just because it's iconic.

I doubt it would be changed to apply to conventional weapons. I think it's because of a Force user's mystical connection to her own lightsaber that it's easier.

To kinda piggy back off this, so does a Rank in Gearhead from the Explorer/Driver tree, (Remove setback per rank of Gearhead from Mechanics checks. Halve the credit cost to add mods to attachments)

The halve credit option, does that mean the cost of "screws" and things like that, not the actual attachment

To kinda piggy back off this, so does a Rank in Gearhead from the Explorer/Driver tree, (Remove setback per rank of Gearhead from Mechanics checks. Halve the credit cost to add mods to attachments)

The halve credit option, does that mean the cost of "screws" and things like that, not the actual attachment

Yes, it's good for 50% off your crystal polish.

As for the reduced difficulty for modifying a personally-constructed lightsaber, I don't see that being a change made across the board to all weapons, primarily for the reasons that Away noted.

I could see it being discussed as an optional rule in the eventual Technician career sourcebook, but even then it shouldn't be handed out like candy. As Away noted in his initial post, the Jedi were well educated in the process of building their own lightsabers, to the point it was a rite of passage within the Order, a sign that the student was ready to advance further in their studies of the Force; per TCW it's one of the elements that demonstrates an Initiate is well on the path to being ready to become a Padawan, at least in the Jedi Order.

While it's true that a master weaponsmith could very well build their own blaster pistol by hand, how many PCs are really going take that amount of time and effort when they can just drop a few hundred credits and buy a blaster pistol from a (hopefully) reputable merchant for a lot less fuss?

I do wonder if we'll wind up seeing more in-depth rules on building a lightsaber in future Force and Destiny materials? The Beta offered a "quick and dirty" version (Negotiation check to track down the parts based on the Rarity, assembly of the hilt occurs automatically and off-screen), which I can understand as that was a minor element of rules that needed beta testing.

Personally, I wouldn't allow a Jedi PC to get that reduced difficultly unless their character really did build the hilt from scratch and personally harvested/obtained the lightsaber crystal used. So for Luke in ANH and ESB, I wouldn't grant him the reduced difficultly if he wanted to modify his father's lightsaber, since he didn't build it and he certainly didn't get the crystal himself. But he would get it for the new 'saber he built for RotJ, since he did all the work himself, including (at least in the EU) growing the synthetic crystal to use as the focusing crystal using instructions left to him in Obi-Wan's hut.

The reduction in difficulty may not make it in the final product. That could be part of the lightsaber construction rules included in the GM's kit for Force and Destiny.

Something to also consider is that Lightsabers aren't something you can just pick up at Ye Old Lightsabre Shoppe so screwing up on a Mod roll is going to be extra sh*tty. When I run F&D I'm going to skip the roll for Success entirely and instead have the PCs either quest for the Mod (if its a Crystal) or roll for how long it takes to add the mod.

Something to also consider is that Lightsabers aren't something you can just pick up at Ye Old Lightsabre Shoppe so screwing up on a Mod roll is going to be extra sh*tty. When I run F&D I'm going to skip the roll for Success entirely and instead have the PCs either quest for the Mod (if its a Crystal) or roll for how long it takes to add the mod.

+1

I really like the questing for a modded crystal idea. I also would enjoy having a force user quest for a holocron to teach them how to better attune or construct lightsabers and give the modification bonus. Something to make the choice of "your lightsaber" to be meaningful. I'm just not a fan of giving something for nothing. (Perhaps I'm just over reactionary. )

It really shouldn't be that easy to find restricted guns either, such as disruptors and the gunnery autofire heavy guns. But I will agree that if Star Wars is done "right" then it will probably be harder to find a lightsaber and parts. Unless you're already adventuring in a bunch of old Jedi/Sith ruins, of course.

I'll respectfully disagree with points 1 and 2. What I'm looking for in game rules is a balanced crunch. I understand that there are social reason to not use these weapons (or heavy blasters) but IMHO that is a crutch. It feels like a cop out when game designers say "send bounty hunters after them" to try to balance powerful options. In a game like this there will already be bounty hunters, storm troopers, inquisitors, ect chasing after the players anyway. All that sending these challenges at the players mean is that it's a pre-built adventure/encounter that the players can earn more EX for overcoming. It's not balance, it's part of the fun.

This is a play style thing thing. A narrative system doesn't provide what I'm looking for. It's something that I'll just have to deal with, but it won't stop me for at least discussing the crunch aspects on here. I think that these discussions are great for all of us to look at these new rules and truly understand them.

At some point, though, the societal implications in an RPG must be addressed. Otherwise you might as well just play The Old Republic where everything is mechanically "balanced" to the .00001 degree.

All the more reason to have a rule attached to the crystal attachment, not lightsabers in general. Perhaps have an attainment mechanic for a crystal so that you can declare it yours. Spend an hour and make an average Discipline check, you are now attuned to the crystal until you attune a new one.

I would agree on having the rule attached to the crystal and not the lightsaber. Making that small change would have virtually no impact on gameplay and would probably set a lot of minds at ease.

However, I'd disagree with the whole "attuning a crytsal to you" mechanic. Too gamey, not well-supported in any Star Wars lore that I know of, and especially not supported in Canon. Crystals are personal things with their own Force signature, and matching a crystal to a Jedi is not something that can be easily and reliably manufactured.

Not that "Canon is law," but more like it just doesn't feel appropriate.

/Rant

While we're talking about modifications, I feel that some attachments have too many. I wish that attachments never had more than a few modifications. I'd probably set it at 3 or so. It has always upset me that things like the Augmented Spin Barrel have so many powerful modifications. My Sniper character decided to "downgrade" to a Marksman Barrel from an ASB because it was too powerful fully modded. Also, if they capped the number of mods then we wouldn't be having the discussion about how to keep increasing the difficulty beyond impossible.

/End Rant

I feel you. I suppose one could just look at it as many options, but I am a completionist and like to see things fully maximized Maybe in the Technician splatbook we will see better options for stacking mods.

I think I understand where you're coming from, but to me this doesn't work. This is what I experienced when we played around with giving an untrained Jedi a lightsaber pre-FaD. Damage 10, Breach, and Vicious 2 meant that the Jedi was mowing down an enemies (especially minion groups) left and right with no skills, only Agility 3. (We let him use Agility instead of Brawn.)

Sure, there are auto-fire weapons that can also mow down minion groups. However, I feel that there is a difference. Those heavy weapons usually have Cumbersome, which means you're either buying up your Brawn (a stat that otherwise isn't used while shooting), buying Burly talents, or spending precious hard points for a weapon sling or harness. That's an investment. I think we can all agree that rolling Advantages for extra hits can be hard out of the gate, so you need to spend XP in buying up your shooting skills to get more effect out of the weapon. If we want to use social reasons too, then an auto-fire rifle is huge and so much harder to hide on your person (or in your droid) than something that if flashlight sized.

Three things for consideration:

1. Cumbersome rating is easier to deal with than the Inquisitorious. Throw your untrained saber wielder up against a trained Inquisitor, and they will be crying for mother soon enough. I'd rather spend 100 credits and get a sling than fight a dark Jedi.

2. Long/Extreme range capabilities vs. Engaged, AND...

3. Jury-rigged Autofire/Burn/Blast/whatever. I will mow down a Knight-Level Jedi PC with my Knight-Level Bounty Hunter, especially if you give me 9k credits with which to do the deed

Jury-Rigged is kinda the everyman's "personalization," so it's fitting that it is so broadly utilitarian in contrast to the rather specific lightsaber-attachment modding rules.

An EotE lightsaber is easy to use once it's in your hands. You can kill plenty of bad guys with it without any more expenditure than the time/money it took to acquire one. Big guns take more expenditure (of XP, HP, and/or cash) to be able to use them. By making it easier to upgrade the new basic lightsabers you're returning the EotE style lightsaber for little more than just the time/money it takes to get the parts. If lack of mechanics on EotE careers is a problem then perhaps they should make a universal Jedi tree that has mechanics. Heck, I'd even be happy(er) with using discipline instead of mechanics for lightsabers.

A 3 Agility PC can use a blaster rifle just as well as a lightsaber. If you want to spend some XP on skill training and cash on attachments, then that's all gravy. But blasters are simply way cheaper than lightsabers, and easier to use, given that they appear on more career skill lists.

And anyway, if you had a problem with the EotE/AoR lightsaber in EotE/AoR, then there is a problem of foundational issues. If our respective perspectives on lightsaber power are comparatively skewed, then we can't have a productive discussion on mechanics that upgrade lightsabers :/

I agree that a force user should/could have a lightsaber by this point. Which is why I thought the new sabers were created. I could even be convinced that they should have a fully modified one. I'm trying to remember back to when we started our games, but it does seem reasonable to have fairly tricked out gear by 2 months (20xp a week) of play time. The problem I have is with the relative comparative ease that a force user can do this. It makes me feel that force users are special snowflakes who get all the advantages for free.

IMO, "special snowflake" is an overused term when it comes to Force users, and it doesn't really apply unless you ignore the social implications of being a Jedi during the Galactic Civil War. And if you do that, then you're ignoring a significant chunk of the game rules.

Are you comparing a free player option available to all FaD players to a 10 XP talent limited to a single AoR spec? Reducing the difficulty by two is vastly superior to upgrading once, and that's before you compare the costs of acquiring the ability.

No, not comparing, just contrasting and calling out similarities. We're talking about a 10k-value weapon vs. a 100k-value vehicle, so comparisons are not so useful. I simply wanted to call out the only other specific instance I knew of in which some kind of bonus was given to someone for having something so personal. I'd build Han Solo as a Smuggler but give him the Rigger specialization at some point down the line, since the Millenium Falcon is just such an iconic part of his character. So I was just seeing a similarity in how ships are treated as signature vehicles.

Mechanics-wise:

• -2 Difficulty means a slightly higher chance of success, while +1 Upgrade means, in most circumstances, a much greater chance of rolling a Triumph. There are merits to both.
• Signature Vehicle pertains to ALL mechanics checks. The lightsaber rule only applies to attachment modifications.

There are benefits to both, and they are for two very different applications, with vastly different scopes.

I have no problem with the mechanic. The problem I have is that it's a free upgrade. I agree that it's more flavorful than the Saga self-built version. Unless there are rules for how to determine it is "your" lightsaber (only ones you crafted or attuned to) then it's just free upgrades just because it's iconic.

Eh, but it's not "free." You've still gotta build a lightsaber, and that costs time and resources that other PCs would use to build wealth, connections, and/or their own arsenal.

And how do they build that lightsaber? Certainly not with intrinsic knowledge. They'd have to find at least some schematics, if not personal instruction from a mentor or holocron.

It really shouldn't be that easy to find restricted guns either, such as disruptors and the gunnery autofire heavy guns. But I will agree that if Star Wars is done "right" then it will probably be harder to find a lightsaber and parts. Unless you're already adventuring in a bunch of old Jedi/Sith ruins, of course.

Yeah, this. Lightsabers are Restricted, crazy-Rare, and crazy-expensive (not as if one would purchase a lightsaber from Olivanders, but just in terms of a "value" listing that is helpful gauge for GMs and such), and so they should be harder to obtain than any other weapon.

EDIT: Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful reply. Been a while since I've done this sort of thing I forgot how much I enjoyed it...

<-nerd

Those at this year's GamerNationCon got to see what happens when a PC with a heavy blaster rifle that's been Jury-Rigged to only need one Advantage to trigger Auto-Fire goes up against characters with lightsabers during the Battle Royale that was Sam Stewart's brainchild (inspired by seeing the awesome Huttball map that DarthGM put together for his "Big Leagues" GenCon module).

Short Version: The guy with Auto-fire wins, as Sam found to his chagrin/dismay after seeing his character wiped out in the opening round by Rikoshi's walking blaster turret

I'm snipping out unnecessary text to keep my post somewhat condensed.

At some point, though, the societal implications in an RPG must be addressed. Otherwise you might as well just play The Old Republic where everything is mechanically "balanced" to the .00001 degree.

To give some background on where I'm coming from, some of the earliest games I played were Rifts as a kid. Once you start looking through the splat books the player options very quickly become unbalanced. After that I moved to miniature games, where there is a necessity for rules to be extremely well balanced. By D&D3e I was back into RPGs and lived through OGL supplements that were no where near balanced compared to the core rules.

I'll agree that there should be some societal implications. The question is where/when should those societal implications be addressed. I'd hope that FFG will have some rules for deciding what constitutes as "your lightsaber" but knowing how they like to rule things I'm sure they'll leave it up to the GMs. Perhaps some of my beef is with the group I game with. The GMs I play with have always been more on the relaxed side of what they let in, which leads me to wanting a stronger backbone to the printed rules. At least it's a good group so when we find broken combos we usually either don't live them up to full potential or change the character.

However, I'd disagree with the whole "attuning a crytsal to you" mechanic. Too gamey, not well-supported in any Star Wars lore that I know of, and especially not supported in Canon. Crystals are personal things with their own Force signature, and matching a crystal to a Jedi is not something that can be easily and reliably manufactured.

Understandable. I'm not well versed in Star Wars Canon, so if you say that idea doesn't sound legit then I'll take your word for it. How about just needing to spend some time working with a lightsaber, (taking it apart, cleaning it, studying it with the force, putting it back together, ect) to declare it as "your lightsaber" for these modification rules?

Three things for consideration:

1. Cumbersome rating is easier to deal with than the Inquisitorious. Throw your untrained saber wielder up against a trained Inquisitor, and they will be crying for mother soon enough. I'd rather spend 100 credits and get a sling than fight a dark Jedi.
2. Long/Extreme range capabilities vs. Engaged, AND...
3. Jury-rigged Autofire/Burn/Blast/whatever. I will mow down a Knight-Level Jedi PC with my Knight-Level Bounty Hunter, especially if you give me 9k credits with which to do the deed

1. There is resource management that is needed to deal with Cumbersome. I'll agree that 100 credits and 1 HP are well worth it to be able to use some of those bigger guns, but it does limit what other gizmos you attach to the weapon in the long run. (Granted, the Quick Draw modification is darn good and I've used it on weapons without Cumbersome. I'm just saying...) Fighting a dark Jedi is just part of the adventure, part of the fun, part of the game.

(Side note: ever run into a situation where the players are so good at killing things that they don't fear reinforcements? In those situations reinforcements are just more things to kill, more XP to earn, and more bodies to loot. Again, maybe this is just a personal game issue and the GMs I play with don't have enough bite on making use of those social implications. Where our group unconsciously believes that everything the GM throws at us is a challenge that we can defeat. I'll blame too much D&D on that.)

I'm not real up on FaD rules. There are talents like parries and what not that make lightsaber duals interesting and different than standard melee combat in EotE, right? Perhaps I'm overly reactionary and looking at this from a narrow EotE perspective. When viewed in context of FaD only, it might be balanced. However, in the spirit of keeping the three systems compatible, I'd still prefer to have some mechanic for declaring your lightsaber as yours for this bonus.

2. I'm probably not concerned with longer ranges for Jedi because Move can be quite a powerful tool. However, it is rather unfair to do in a discussion focused on lightsabers. So, point taken.

3. All that I can say about that is it costs XP to pick up Jury-Rigged, especially if it's not in your first spec tree. Also, the Jury-Rigged auto-fire interaction is one of the first things I'd like to see changed if they ever do an errata to fix game rules.

I think it's unfortunate that the iconic weapon that force users want to use is rarity 10 and restricted. Allowing that in the game means that all other weapons should be allowed and attainable too, since they are less rarity. I also think it's unfortunate that we have to compare the most powerful guns to this iconic weapon since the basic lightsaber can be easily modded with no additional attachments.

A 3 Agility PC can use a blaster rifle just as well as a lightsaber. If you want to spend some XP on skill training and cash on attachments, then that's all gravy. But blasters are simply way cheaper than lightsabers, and easier to use, given that they appear on more career skill lists.

True, although each career has a talent to use a lightsaber with an ability that will actually be used. It's hard for a Politico to keep raising their Presence, Cunning, Willpower, and Agility if they want to be the face as well as be good with a gun. An Advisor can dip into Makashi Duelist for Makash Technique and never have to worry about Agility or Brawn for fighting, because it's replaced by Presence.

And anyway, if you had a problem with the EotE/AoR lightsaber in EotE/AoR, then there is a problem of foundational issues. If our respective perspectives on lightsaber power are comparatively skewed, then we can't have a productive discussion on mechanics that upgrade lightsabers :/

I'll admit that my issue with the lightsaber was probably because we wanted to see what one could do and we gave it to the force user at the start of the game. In our experience, with zero other investment, he was just as good with his lightsaber as the other fighting characters were who were spending resources on their abilities. (I was playing a Medic/Doctor in an attempt to see what having Brawl and Pressure Point would do and the other player made a Heavy with a big auto-fire gun.) Some of my issue with the lightsaber would've been removed if we had actually quested for the item, or if it was given as quest rewards for a job well done. This is why I'm a fan of the "lesser" versions, it lets you start with the iconic weapon and build towards making it super awesome.

My takeaway on this is, don't give players super cool and powerful toys too soon. Even though players may demand instant gratification, it's a better story and game if they actually work towards it. (And other players won't feel put out if they perceive it to be unfair.)

IMO, "special snowflake" is an overused term when it comes to Force users, and it doesn't really apply unless you ignore the social implications of being a Jedi during the Galactic Civil War. And if you do that, then you're ignoring a significant chunk of the game rules.

I'll agree it was a cheep shot for me to say "special snowflake". I'll also admit that some of it is character envy. "Awe geeze, that guy can throw people around with his mind, attack them with lightning, and cut them with a glowing sword. All I get to do is shoot them a lot."

Social implications are not only for Force users and light sabers. Everything you do has social implications. EotE is built on playing with those social implications. You have to work in the criminal element and balance that with skirting the law. It's easy to make enemies. Say the wrong word to a Hutt. Carry weapons where they aren't allowed. Steal from the Imperials. Fight Stormtroopers. All those things carry social implications. Heck, social implications is always the first suggestion people throw around when GMs come here asking for help on those tricked out auto-fire weapons. I guess what I'm saying is that the social implications of having a Force user in a group isn't much worse than all the other social implications that the group is already running into anyway.

Mechanics-wise:

• -2 Difficulty means a slightly higher chance of success, while +1 Upgrade means, in most circumstances, a much greater chance of rolling a Triumph. There are merits to both.
• Signature Vehicle pertains to ALL mechanics checks. The lightsaber rule only applies to attachment modifications.

Good points. Mechanic wise, it's fine. It just feels off to me for it to be a "free" character upgrade.

Let me ask a hypothetical question. What if FFG made Ezra's lightsaber/blaster? If that weapon was just classified as a lightsaber, could any existing gun attachments be used on the weapon? What if the hypothetical rules said that you could attach pistol attachments to it? Would this easy lightsaber attachment modification rule work for something like that? (I know we can't know how rules like that would actually be printed, but it is an interesting thought experiment.)

Eh, but it's not "free." You've still gotta build a lightsaber, and that costs time and resources that other PCs would use to build wealth, connections, and/or their own arsenal.

I choose to disagree. In context of FaD, it's probably fine and balanced. However, it's an edge that you don't get with any other character from AoR or EotE, unless resources are spent on those abilities mentioned above.

Question. Does the rules say you have to be Force sensitive to do this? If not, you could give Han a lightsaber, port him into a FaD game, and use him to mod his lightsaber.

All basic lightsabers come with unmodded Ilum crystals, right? Once a player has a lightsaber they can start modding it right up. They don't have to find any other attachment. There is no more questing for parts to improve your lightsaber, unless you want a different crystal. An Ilum crystal has 7 modifications that can be applied to turn it into the EotE lightsaber. The later of those modifications will get darn hard and I'll agree that can be an issue. (Personally, my reading of the rules with this modification rule is that you'll have to pass a 7 purple check to add the last modification.) However, I don't think the solution is to make applying all modifications on lightsabers easier. If anything, this is proof that the modification rules are flawed and that attachments should not have that many modification options. This rule means that you'll never see an unmodded lightsaber, since they all have at least one attachment and the early checks are so easy.

@Jamwes - Ah RIFTS. Such a fun game, if you stick with the core book and the first three world books or have a group of like minded players. Otherwise, as a friend of mine likes to say, it becomes "Saturday Morning Cartoon - the Role Playing Game".

Edit - After reading the whole response...

I think that FFG would handle Ezra's lightsaber as a lightsaber with a blaster attachment. They have a few other weapons in the game that have those kind of rules already. Presumably the blaster only attachments would only affect the blaster stats and vice versa.

I'm snipping out unnecessary text to keep my post somewhat condensed.

Social implications are not only for Force users and light sabers. Everything you do has social implications. EotE is built on playing with those social implications. You have to work in the criminal element and balance that with skirting the law. It's easy to make enemies. Say the wrong word to a Hutt. Carry weapons where they aren't allowed. Steal from the Imperials. Fight Stormtroopers. All those things carry social implications. Heck, social implications is always the first suggestion people throw around when GMs come here asking for help on those tricked out auto-fire weapons. I guess what I'm saying is that the social implications of having a Force user in a group isn't much worse than all the other social implications that the group is already running into anyway.

I disagree. It depends on the kind of game being run, but using the movies+Rebels as our guide, if you’re a Force User, that’s likely to bring yourself to the attention of Vader pretty quickly. Sure, you might have to go through an Inquisitor first, but that’s a fast elevator to the #1 Most Wanted position in the galaxy.

If you’re not a Force User, you’re unlikely to make it to that same tier, unless you do something on the scale of blowing up a Death Star. In which case, you’re probably a Force User anyway.

Killing hundreds, thousands, or millions of people with blasters isn’t enough to get you that kind of unwanted attention.

But swinging a lightsaber is.

I'm snipping out unnecessary text to keep my post somewhat condensed.

Social implications are not only for Force users and light sabers. Everything you do has social implications. EotE is built on playing with those social implications. You have to work in the criminal element and balance that with skirting the law. It's easy to make enemies. Say the wrong word to a Hutt. Carry weapons where they aren't allowed. Steal from the Imperials. Fight Stormtroopers. All those things carry social implications. Heck, social implications is always the first suggestion people throw around when GMs come here asking for help on those tricked out auto-fire weapons. I guess what I'm saying is that the social implications of having a Force user in a group isn't much worse than all the other social implications that the group is already running into anyway.

I disagree. It depends on the kind of game being run, but using the movies+Rebels as our guide, if you’re a Force User, that’s likely to bring yourself to the attention of Vader pretty quickly. Sure, you might have to go through an Inquisitor first, but that’s a fast elevator to the #1 Most Wanted position in the galaxy.

If you’re not a Force User, you’re unlikely to make it to that same tier, unless you do something on the scale of blowing up a Death Star. In which case, you’re probably a Force User anyway.

Killing hundreds, thousands, or millions of people with blasters isn’t enough to get you that kind of unwanted attention.

But swinging a lightsaber is.

I haven't seen any of the cartoons, but since the EU was axed is this still the case? No one seemed overly concerned about a Jedi in their midst when Obiwan cut off a guy's arm in the cantina with a lightsaber. Han want's to use money from transporting them to pay off Jabba. There is no lines about him wanting to turn them over for the bounty on their head. (Not even in the re-releases when Han talks directly to Jabba and Boba. Where scum would say, "I'll trade you my debt for information on where a Jedi is" would be appropriate.) Or, because he's not that kind of scum, no lines about being worried when the Star Destroyer is after them about how much Obiwan would be worth or that the Imperials would be not nice to all of them if they are captured. Once Obiwan starts training Luke, Han seems more annoyed than anything. Again, no comments about any bounties or the trouble that transporting a Jedi would bring down on him. Heck, Han could've used that fact when he figured it out to demand more money. Also, when Luke show's up at Jabba's palace, I'd think there would've been a different response if a large bounty was offered for all Jedi. They would've tried to capture him, not just feed him to their pets.

As for Rebels. Is Vader there because Jedi are there or is he there because he wants to stomp out a Rebellion before one has a chance to start up? To me, those are very different things. I once saw a thread around here where someone was talking about how Vader can't stand failure because everything he goes through in the PT is failure. That's why he kills those Admirals who fail. So, I could see him being there because the Imperials that were there had failed at stopping the Rebellion, not because there is a Jedi.

Do you remember after Obi-Wan cut that guy's arm off how a sneaky dude went and got some Stormtroopers and pointed at them and said "There they are, and then Stormtroopers tried to kill them all and they barely escaped Mos Eisley?

I disagree. It depends on the kind of game being run, but using the movies+Rebels as our guide, if you’re a Force User, that’s likely to bring yourself to the attention of Vader pretty quickly. Sure, you might have to go through an Inquisitor first, but that’s a fast elevator to the #1 Most Wanted position in the galaxy.

If you’re not a Force User, you’re unlikely to make it to that same tier, unless you do something on the scale of blowing up a Death Star. In which case, you’re probably a Force User anyway.

Killing hundreds, thousands, or millions of people with blasters isn’t enough to get you that kind of unwanted attention.

But swinging a lightsaber is.

In Rebels they escalated to Vader in large part because their particular cell was very active. This is what initially caught the attention of the ISB and only after, when Kanan revealed himself did an Inquisitor get involved, and only sporadically initially. The progression makes sense (though it remains to be seen how they write Vader's role in the coming season) considering how over a year or so (I'm not sure of the exact timeline but I believe what we see in season one is around a year) a small cell of pre-rebellion agitators went from local disruptions to destroying a Moff's Star Destroyer. The only reason Tarkin was there was because the local IS had been unable to stop this cell, that a Jedi might be involved was only a minor factor. The Lightsabre and even the fact Kanan had a Padiwan really only required the attention of an Inquisitor until then.

Vader is there not because there is a Jedi but because that Jedi killed one of the Emperor's Inquisitors and Tarkin asked him to come.

So a typical EotE party may not bring down Vader or a Moff but if they are causing disruptions with Imperial business they can expect the ISB and if a Lightsabre is involved an Inquisitor. At least as far as the Empire is concerned. As for other trouble an active and brazen EotE party, regardless of whether or not there is a Force User, will very quickly bring down local law enforcement and rival thugs. That Vader will not get involved is rather academic, sort of choosing death by Lightsabre or Blaster. Either way you are dead.

Do you remember after Obi-Wan cut that guy's arm off how a sneaky dude went and got some Stormtroopers and pointed at them and said "There they are, and then Stormtroopers tried to kill them all and they barely escaped Mos Eisley?

Good point. However, since we can't hear the interaction we don't know what was said and what context the interaction was in. Was it "OMG! That's a Jedi!" or "Those guys were part of a fight." or "Those droids you're looking for? Yeah, those guys walked in with them but the droids were kicked out." or something else?

Edited to add:

I thought to look up what's in the script. According to IMSDB.com this is from the fourth draft of the Star Wars script.

                                     BARTENDER                         We don't serve their kind here!               Luke still recovering from the shock of seeing so many                outlandish creatures, doesn't quite catch the bartender's                drift.                                     LUKE                         What?                                     BARTENDER                         Your droids. They'll have to wait                          outside. We don't want them here.               Luke looks at old Ben, who is busy talking to one of the                Galactic pirates. He notices several of the gruesome creatures                along the bar are giving him a very unfriendly glare.               Luke pats Threepio on the shoulder.                                     LUKE                         Listen, why don't you wait out by                          the speeder. We don't want any                          trouble.                                     THREEPIO                         I heartily agree with you sir.               Threepio and his stubby partner go outside and most of the                creatures at the bar go back to their drinks.               Ben is standing next to Chewbacca, an eight-foot-tall savage-               looking creature resembling a huge grey bushbaby monkey with                fierce baboon-like fangs. His large blue eyes dominate a fur-               covered face and soften his otherwise awesome appearance.                 Over his matted, furry body he wears two chrome bandoliers,                and little else. He is a two-hundred-year-old Wookiee and a                sight to behold.               Ben speaks to the Wookiee, pointing to Luke several times                during his conversation and the huge creature suddenly lets                out a horrifying laugh. Luke is more than a little bit                disconcerted and pretends not to hear the conversation between                Ben and the giant Wookiee.               Luke is terrified but tries not to show it. He quietly sips                his drink, looking over the crowd for a more sympathetic ear                or whatever.

               A large, multiple-eyed Creature gives Luke a rough shove.                                     CREATURE                         Negola dewaghi wooldugger?!?               The hideous freak is obviously drunk. Luke tries to ignore                the creature and turns back on his drink. A short, grubby                Human and an even smaller rodent-like beast join the                belligerent monstrosity.                                     HUMAN                         He doesn't like you.                                     LUKE                         I'm sorry.                                     HUMAN                         I don't like you either.               The big creature is getting agitated and yells out some                unintelligible gibberish at the now rather nervous, young                adventurer.                                     HUMAN                         Don't insult us. You just watch                          yourself. We're wanted men. I have                          the death sentence in twelve systems.                                     LUKE                         I'll be careful than.                                     HUMAN                         You'll be dead.               The rodent lets out a loud grunt and everything at the bar                moves away. Luke tries to remain cool but it isn't easy. His                three adversaries ready their weapons. Old Ben moves in behind                Luke.                                     BEN                         This little one isn't worth the                          effort. Come let me buy you                          something...               A powerful blow from the unpleasant creature sends the young                would-be Jedi sailing across the room, crashing through tables                and breaking a large jug filled with a foul-looking liquid.                With a blood curdling shriek, the monster draws a wicked                chrome laser pistol from his belt and levels it at old Ben.                The bartender panics.                                     BARTENDER                         No blasters! No blaster!               With astounding agility old Ben's laser sword sparks to life                and in a flash an arm lies on the floor. The rodent is cut                in two and the giant multiple-eyed creature lies doubled,                cut from chin to groin. Ben carefully and precisely turns                off his laser sword and replaces it on his utility belt.                Luke, shaking and totally amazed at the old man's abilities,                attempts to stand. The entire fight has lasted only a matter                of seconds. The cantina goes back to normal, although Ben is                given a respectable amount of room at the bar. Luke, rubbing                his bruised head, approaches the old man with new awe. Ben                points the the Wookiee.                                     BEN                         This is Chewbacca. He's first-mate                          on a ship that might suit our needs.               EXT. TATOOINE - MOS EISLEY - STREET               Threepio paces in front of the cantina as Artoo carries on                an electronic conversation with another little red astro-               droid. A creature comes out of the cantina and approaches                two stormtroopers in the street.<snip>

                                     HAN                         Looks like somebody's beginning to                          take an interest in your handiwork.               Ben and Luke turn around to see four Imperial stormtroopers                looking at the dead bodies and asking the bartenders some                questions. The bartender points to the booth.                                     TROOPER                         All right, we'll check it out.               The stormtroopers look over at the booth but Luke and Ben                are gone. The bartender shrugs his shoulders in puzzlement.

So, the bartender yells at Luke that they don't serve droids. Plenty of creatures see this interaction. Then a large drunk creature gets mad at Luke, makes a lot of noise, and gets everyone's attention. The guy then says that they are wanted criminals. A blaster is drawn, bartender shouts and panics, and Ben cuts an arm and a guy in half (the long way). Then a creature goes to talk to stormtroopers.

Why are the stormtroopers interested in this activity? Is it because they are responding to a bar fight with droid lovers? A murder? As far as anyone knows, the dead guys are wanted criminals. Maybe the stormtroopers are just following up on the killing of wanted men. It could be any number of reasons beyond the mere presence of a Jedi.

BTW: I found this bit interesting. I don't know if this was added after the fact or if this script is legit and original.

                                     HAN                         It's the ship that made the Kessel                          run in less than twelve parsecs!               Ben reacts to Solo's stupid attempt to impress them with                obvious misinformation.