Dual B/Whatever IG88 builds with autothrusters murder Fat Han without breaking stride. Add Feedback Array for some anti-Phantom shenanigans and it is a solid Scum counter to both turrets and Phantoms.

Any list with 3/4 Feedback arrays works against Phantoms, any list with a couple Autothrusters works against turrets. High PS Interceptors can work solidly against both, as can any gunner equipped Decimator especially if they fire before PS 9. High PS stress from R3A2 or Flechette Cannons/Torpedoes is effective vs. Phantoms and doesn't cost you so much to include that it hamstrings your game against turrets.

In short, S&V has helped the meta a LOT by providing a lot more answers to these two archetypes, but you do still need to include them in your planning.

Wave 6 was sorely needed, but now that it's here it has busted open the doors for lists by providing an even wider variety of anti-phantom counters

I agree that the Phantom is beatable, I also agree that it is not OP. It is however by far the most unbalanced ship in the game, it dominates lists that are not prepared for it more thoroughly than any other ship in the game.

I think it's OP.... When I have 5 Tie Fighters left and my opponent has a super Phantom on the table still, I'm losing unless it goes to time in the next round or two.... unless I specifically counter it, the only times I beat one are by killing whatever is accompanying it and winning on time, or playing against someone who is terrible with it and asteroids it.

and that sums up what I don't agree with, and was the point of my original post. you can beat them with that, and people do... just stop assuming you are already junked by the matchup. I really think the fear is what causes most of these games to turn into self-fulfilling prophecies.

How? A super Phantom can just arc dodge most of what I have. Any shots I will get will likely be two attack dice against 4 agility and a defensive focus. And with gunner FCS offensive focus 4 base attack shenanigans there is a good chance I'm losing a TIE every time it fires.

Have you actually been in this situation? It's quite an autoloss. If I put a smile on my face and pretend that I'm having fun it's not going to make 2 attack dice get through 4 with a defensive focus anymore often than if I just complained the whole time.

I agree that the Phantom is beatable, I also agree that it is not OP. It is however by far the most unbalanced ship in the game, it dominates lists that are not prepared for it more thoroughly than any other ship in the game.

I think it's OP.... When I have 5 Tie Fighters left and my opponent has a super Phantom on the table still, I'm losing unless it goes to time in the next round or two.... unless I specifically counter it, the only times I beat one are by killing whatever is accompanying it and winning on time, or playing against someone who is terrible with it and asteroids it.

and that sums up what I don't agree with, and was the point of my original post. you can beat them with that, and people do... just stop assuming you are already junked by the matchup. I really think the fear is what causes most of these games to turn into self-fulfilling prophecies.

How? A super Phantom can just arc dodge most of what I have. Any shots I will get will likely be two attack dice against 4 agility and a defensive focus. And with gunner FCS offensive focus 4 base attack shenanigans there is a good chance I'm losing a TIE every time it fires.

Have you actually been in this situation? It's quite an autoloss. If I put a smile on my face and pretend that I'm having fun it's not going to make 2 attack dice get through 4 with a defensive focus anymore often than if I just complained the whole time.

Also,Alex.... See? Lol

I agree that the Phantom is beatable, I also agree that it is not OP. It is however by far the most unbalanced ship in the game, it dominates lists that are not prepared for it more thoroughly than any other ship in the game.

I think it's OP.... When I have 5 Tie Fighters left and my opponent has a super Phantom on the table still, I'm losing unless it goes to time in the next round or two.... unless I specifically counter it, the only times I beat one are by killing whatever is accompanying it and winning on time, or playing against someone who is terrible with it and asteroids it.

and that sums up what I don't agree with, and was the point of my original post. you can beat them with that, and people do... just stop assuming you are already junked by the matchup. I really think the fear is what causes most of these games to turn into self-fulfilling prophecies.

How? A super Phantom can just arc dodge most of what I have. Any shots I will get will likely be two attack dice against 4 agility and a defensive focus. And with gunner FCS offensive focus 4 base attack shenanigans there is a good chance I'm losing a TIE every time it fires.

Have you actually been in this situation? It's quite an autoloss. If I put a smile on my face and pretend that I'm having fun it's not going to make 2 attack dice get through 4 with a defensive focus anymore often than if I just complained the whole time.

I have been in that situation on both sides, and so have many others and I've seen well flown phantoms get taken out by well flown ties swarms, well flown a wing swarms, etc. calling it an auto loss is just plain wrong and exactly what I was talking about.

Also,Alex.... See? Lol

In no particular order;

-5 ties against an echo...by no means an ideal matchup, but I'd rather have 5 ties and try to lane block than go into an endgame against Echo and say, 3 X-wings or 4 Z's.

-Nigel, it's not about giving up the game. Maybe the people you play against ragequit, I don't know. Personally, I don't see how one can calculate out the 6 different headings, and multiple positions that Echo can be in at the end of any given round. That's assuming you correctly anticipate her maneuver dial, and also assuming she doesn't further adjust her positioning by means of a b-roll. And you're saying you can plan this 2 rounds ahead? That's pretty amazing; in fact, to quote fake Wedge, that's impossible, even for a computer. I suspect the people you are playing against are not competent Phantom players. I'm not saying you can't or don't win against Phantoms, I'm not saying Phantoms are OP because of this. I'm just saying that if you are predicting Echo's position 2 rounds out (and assuming Echo is not Range 1 from a corner of the map on Round 0), then your opponent is simply not playing Echo well. Additionally, all these people who say "just outfly them, same as any other opponent!" or "block their path" or whatever...you do realize that Phantom is generally shooting back at you, to the tune of 4-5 red dice each turn, right? Which is enough to splash certain ships every round (especially the ones that tend to be used for blocking).

Again, this is not to say that Phantoms are OP. They are like loud, obnoxious braggarts at a party that force all the attention on them and require you to take notice. That's why i say they are rude. Most people don't design a competitive/tourney list and say "Ok, I have to find some way to deal with Biggs!" Biggs shows up a lot in the competitive scene...or at least he did. But you don't need a specific counter to Biggs...you just have to adapt if/when he shows up and focus fire on him (assuming you want to shoot at other stuff....and just the fact that he's there, means you probably do). So your success against Biggs is based on what you do rather than what you brought.

I brought my 4 Tie Bomber list to local SC and thought I was ready for everything. If I use all my ordnance on the Phantom, I can usually kill the rest of the list. Well, the only guy who brought a Phantom brought 3 Generics! I was able to kill 2, but it took everything I had and the last one mopped me up. That was me being knocked out of Final 4. Otherwise, I was undefeated.

The phantom isn't game breaking, but it is definitely metagame breaking.

It isn't overpowered, in that it has counters, but it does have nearly absolute influence on what lists have the best chance to win the current tournament format.

Speaking of which, man, I wish I had time to play here in Des Moines. It sounds like there's some great players around here. So busy with work that I haven't done much more than theory craft since before wave 5.

I don't really consider the generics in the same league as the echo or whisper super phantom. Even with ACD they're at a PS where bidding against them is actually possible with low-mid PS pilots and you aren't pigeonholed into using VI/high PS pilots.

Generic Phantoms are still great ships without ACD. If ACD was banned or if ACD gave a cloak at the end of the end phase, you'd still see them. 4x Sigma is a pretty good build.

I don't really consider the generics in the same league as the echo or whisper super phantom. Even with ACD they're at a PS where bidding against them is actually possible with low-mid PS pilots and you aren't pigeonholed into using VI/high PS pilots.

Generic Phantoms are still great ships without ACD. If ACD was banned or if ACD gave a cloak at the end of the end phase, you'd still see them. 4x Sigma is a pretty good build.

You're correct, they are not in the same league. They are simply balanced, but not game/meta-changing ships. Why do you think its always Echo and Whisper that you see? And why is it that they always have VI? VI is like paying a $10 insurance premium on a million dollar house.

I agree that the Phantom is beatable, I also agree that it is not OP. It is however by far the most unbalanced ship in the game, it dominates lists that are not prepared for it more thoroughly than any other ship in the game.

I think it's OP.... When I have 5 Tie Fighters left and my opponent has a super Phantom on the table still, I'm losing unless it goes to time in the next round or two.... unless I specifically counter it, the only times I beat one are by killing whatever is accompanying it and winning on time, or playing against someone who is terrible with it and asteroids it.

and that sums up what I don't agree with, and was the point of my original post. you can beat them with that, and people do... just stop assuming you are already junked by the matchup. I really think the fear is what causes most of these games to turn into self-fulfilling prophecies.

How? A super Phantom can just arc dodge most of what I have. Any shots I will get will likely be two attack dice against 4 agility and a defensive focus. And with gunner FCS offensive focus 4 base attack shenanigans there is a good chance I'm losing a TIE every time it fires.

Have you actually been in this situation? It's quite an autoloss. If I put a smile on my face and pretend that I'm having fun it's not going to make 2 attack dice get through 4 with a defensive focus anymore often than if I just complained the whole time.

I have been in that situation on both sides, and so have many others and I've seen well flown phantoms get taken out by well flown ties swarms, well flown a wing swarms, etc. calling it an auto loss is just plain wrong and exactly what I was talking about.

Also,Alex.... See? Lol

I have seen this happen as well. On the other hand, I have seen more examples of lone Phantoms single handedly eliminating all 100 points of low-PS ships than I have seen of low PS squadrons successfully beating one. This is not a hyperbolic statement, it is literal.

The OP was asking whether high-PS Phantoms and Fat Han are still something to be considered in the tournament scene. The answer is yes. Fat Han now has a wide variety of readily available counters that can be mixed in to a "normal" squadron, and failing that can still be beaten with some reliability (nearly 50/50) even using a non-optimized list if you can out fly your opponent. High PS Phantoms still require some sort of specific answer to be part of your squad building strategy if you want to have a reasonable (better than 1/5) chance of beating them. Fortunately, there are now more answers available than there were. Anecdotal evidence about that one time you got Whisper doesn't alter the results shown over dozens of tournaments (not you specifically, just a figure of speech). Phantoms lose to anti-Phantom tech, very rarely to anything else. Knowledge of this and the adaptation of the tournament scene (adding anti-Phantom tech to most lists) is what has kept them from totally dominating the upper tables.

Honestly, I bet that with some practice, barring complete whiffs, a lone super Whisper or Echo could clear out a whole 96 point academy swarm given enough time.

I'm going to test that tomorrow. See how many you could kill.

One wonders how it would reshape the landscape if Phantoms were reduced to attack value 3.

One wonders how it would reshape the landscape if Phantoms were reduced to attack value 3.

You would have to reduce their points as aside from Whisper they tend to only attack every other turn.

Imperial and Scum are everywhere. I myself haven't even played a rebel list in weeks.

Phantoms are in force at events I have been to in last month. 2 local store events. I didn't see one YT-1300, out of maybe 24 teams. Couple YT-2400s and lots of Phantoms and Soontir. Scum lists are also very popular being new.

I can sort of see that they wanted to give the Phantom something special with that 4 attack, but they also gave it a pretty neat cloak, and then also gave it a decloak action that made it insane. It has 3 amazing abilities that any other ship in the game would be lucky to have just one of.

That would all be fine with the limitations of the cloaking system in place. You trade one for the other, but upgrades remove that choice entirely. Most of the time, you're trying to patch over the weaknesses of your ship or amp up its strength through upgrade cards, but you never really succeed or you succeed at a price cost. That's what make squad building so fun.

But with VI and ACD, at an incredibly cheap 5 points, it's too easy for the Phantom; such that those 5 points do more for the Phantom than any other 5 points can do for any other ship in the game.

Yeah, that's the thing with this game. Dutch Vander gives someone else a target lock when he target locks. Garven gives someone else a focus. Squad leader gives someone an extra action but it costs your action. PtL costs a stress, etc. In order to get more action economy you have to pay a price normally.

Decked out buzzsaw whisper gets a free 2 barrel roll or boost each turn before it moves, a free target lock, a second shot if it misses, a free defensive focus, a free +2 agility, free expose/hlc, on top of everything else a ship normally gets to do.

44 points is not a lot considering the mass amount of free stuff it can do and the obnoxious decloak right, hard 1 left turn stay in place shenanigans. I mean, take a look at the Daredevil card, now compare that to how the super phantom moves.

I once had a friend tell me that the defender would be OP with a white hard 1 turn and the ability to mount an HLC. A ship with 4 attack dice that can do a hard 1 turn that isn't red? Preposterous!

Actually having to choose between cloaking and attacking would be nice. If ACD gave the cloak at the end phase that'd be fine too. There should be some actual downsides to having a ship that can turn invisible.

It's funny but I've had no trouble with Phantoms. Why? Because I fly Hwks! They were so over looked by the Meta but I actually swept up the wave 5 meta:

Jan Ors + Kyle Katarn (crew), Swarm Tactics, Blaster Turret, Moldy Crow Title

Roark + Recon Specialist, Blaster Turret

Wild Space Fringer + Heavy Laser Cannon

You know what Phantoms hate? 2 PS 12 ships, know what they hate even more? 4 attack dice turrets. It's funny, most opponents would fear HLC and snug up to the Fringer, who then shot them with 4 attack dice with help from Jan. I popped so many phantoms like ties.

Now with Scum I've been running a very gun list of:

Torkil + Blaster turret + rec spec

palob + Blaster turret + oppertunist + k4 + moldy

Mando Merc + Draw Thier Fire + rec spec

It's very similar to my wave 5, but the Hwks have major staying power they didn't have before. It's also just really fun to take a Phantom's action, because they have enough. I need to fly it more to know if its as viable as my wave 5 list though.

I could fly a bunch of HWKs and vaporize a phantom as soon as it gets within range 2 with ps 12 turrets. Then I'd have this wonky list that is sub par against everything else.

You can counter the phantom and beat one every time you see one. If you do then you get pounded by something with actual firepower.

When I started this playing this game just before Phantoms started to dominate, games were often determined by asteroid placement and flying ability, there didn't seem to be as many hard counter matchups. Now if I bring a rock list I can autowin against scissors and probably lose to paper.

If I say, bring 7 TIEs and 7 Targeting Computers and an opponent is playing ~86 point double Phantom I've lost before the match even starts. I've auto lost even against buzzsaw whisper + Howl mini swarm. If I fly double phantom I've auto lost against a fat turret build. Scum has shaken the meta a lot, but I think that's mostly just because everyone wants to try out the new stuff, and also because maybe people are holding back on the power lists in order to not encourage others to fly power lists, at least that's how it seems in my area.

again, the phantom counters still more than allow variety in lists otherwise they'd be out and out broken instead of just unbalanced

the problem is Tie swarms are a skew, they spam a crap ton of 2 dice ships that won't get through those 4 greens without being creative (backstabber, mauler, blocking etc.) Double phantoms are also obviously a skew. they'll die incredibly hard if their maneuverability and green dice are ignored

you start playing more balanced lists with healthy amounts of anti-phantom tech and enough dice to beat turrets, and you'll be good to go regardless of which form the list takes

not suggesting that said skews can't win, but swarms were already the most skill intensive list in the game and they need to work even harder against phantoms. You basically have to be a world-class player to get them winning consistently.

again, the phantom counters still more than allow variety in lists otherwise they'd be out and out broken instead of just unbalanced

the problem is Tie swarms are a skew, they spam a crap ton of 2 dice ships that won't get through those 4 greens without being creative (backstabber, mauler, blocking etc.) Double phantoms are also obviously a skew. they'll die incredibly hard if their maneuverability and green dice are ignored

you start playing more balanced lists with healthy amounts of anti-phantom tech and enough dice to beat turrets, and you'll be good to go regardless of which form the list takes

not suggesting that said skews can't win, but swarms were already the most skill intensive list in the game and they need to work even harder against phantoms. You basically have to be a world-class player to get them winning

But that's the thing, there shouldn't be such skewed matchups though. And phantoms don't just dominate swarms, they dominate most other small based non-turret ships that can't get to 9+ PS. Having to fly lists that can adequately deal with both phantoms and the easy mode counter to phantoms (turrets) is real limiting.

you fly a skewed list, you get skewed match-ups

that's just how it is in every game. If you stack models with the same strengths and weaknesses, you're going to steam-roll everything they're proficient against and get cold-cocked by whatever they're weak against

In regards to the swarm, phantoms just exacerbate that problem because of their imbalance, but they don't create it single handedly.

In regards to everything else, they force the issue because anything unprepared for them becomes a "skew" and that's were the problem lies. Fortunately, the several counters that are effective against them are also very effective against action-dependent arc-dodgers in general or, in the case of stress, against everything, and there are enough of them to encourage a wide variety.

No game is perfect in terms of balance and these situations inevitably arise in all of them, but X-wing's is thankfully less pronounced (unlike $40k, for example).

No game is perfect in terms of balance and these situations inevitably arise in all of them, but X-wing's is thankfully less pronounced (unlike $40k, for example).

And in reality, some measure of "imbalance" between strategies is what makes these sort of games fun, if everyone was at equal chances to win against everything else then things would have to be so generic that it didn't really matter what you flew.

No game is perfect in terms of balance and these situations inevitably arise in all of them, but X-wing's is thankfully less pronounced (unlike $40k, for example).

And in reality, some measure of "imbalance" between strategies is what makes these sort of games fun, if everyone was at equal chances to win against everything else then things would have to be so generic that it didn't really matter what you flew.

Because 8 out of 10 people showing up to a tournament each with at least 1 fat turret in their list to not have to deal with Phantom shenanigans isn't generic?

Give me XXBB vs. TIE Swarm matchups all day over that boring crap. I showed up to an SC and the top 4 players all had at least one turret in their build, and there were 2 falcon super corran lists.

I think this podcast describes the problems with the Phantom pretty well:

http://teamcovenant.com/scumandvillainy/2015/03/19/scum-and-villainy-podcast-interview-series-major-juggler/

Last 10-15 minutes.

Basically, it sounds as if the gaming community simply needs to accept that the Phantom is just as overpowered as the Advanced is underpowered. The designers bungled it. Too bad. Hopefully we'll get a fix, although I do fear they're less likely to nerf what needs nerfing than upping ships in need.