Seriously the best counter to Phantoms is player skill. Even a very good Phantom player only has a finite number of decloaks available at a time, and you can block them or predict them pretty easily once you realize this and start to reason through each path and what maneuvers they could possibly do afterwards to achieve any sort of goal. If you find that task difficult, work on that, don't look for some magic bullet to kill the ship. They're annoying, and they shoot a whole bunch of dice, but once you start steering them, it doesn't take much to kill them, even through 4 defense dice.

Seriously the best counter to Phantoms is player skill. Even a very good Phantom player only has a finite number of decloaks available at a time, and you can block them or predict them pretty easily once you realize this and start to reason through each path and what maneuvers they could possibly do afterwards to achieve any sort of goal. If you find that task difficult, work on that, don't look for some magic bullet to kill the ship. They're annoying, and they shoot a whole bunch of dice, but once you start steering them, it doesn't take much to kill them, even through 4 defense dice.

No amount of player skill is going to reliably punch through four modified green dice in a timely and reliable manner. Really, the obscene agility ACD provides is the real reason Whispers are so difficult to deal with without a dedicated counter/check.

The non-Echo decloaks become predictable really quickly, but four agility with defensive tokens is always going to be four agility defensive tokens.

Hence, the reliance on super high PS ships (esp turrets) that hit 2 agility phantoms rather than 4, things that straight up ignore green dice (Vader, Prox Mines, Auto-blaster Turrets, Feedback Array etc.) and it's why stress works so well (Whisper's focus is assigned, but ACD is a free action)

Now why people thought they needed turrets in general when all they needed was Han or V.I Chiraneau is beyond me.

So, exactly how many store championships need to be won by Awing swarms, BBBZ, XXXZZZ, ect. before we realize that phantoms are not auto win, even against low PS ships?

As long as there are inexperienced players, the Phantom hysteria will remain.

I see a lot posts where people are saying "this is OP and that is OP, and you cant have a list that to counter everything."

well to that I say, "when you look at your opponents build and think oh ****, I cant beat that. he has already won."

people told me I couldn't possibly beat x with y, and I have.

I have won tournaments with a 4 interceptor list and defeated turret lists, ion lists, biggs walks the dogs, all before auto thrusters. the second you get down about the list the guy on the other side of the table has is the second you give him the upper hand. play hard and out think him.

in the words of our favorite little green jedi master "Unlearn what you have learned.......to fear in others lists."

I actually like the current state of the game, because you have no freegin clue what you are going to see when you walk into a store to play. there are so many options right now, its awesome.

So, apart from Han + VI + allsortsofgoodies, what is the most optimal way for rebels (or scum) to handle those pesky hi-ps Phantoms?

I think Torkil will be a great tool to help counter phantoms, along with just about any other high PS threat out there. Plus, if they are within range of his pilot ability, they are in range of a blaster/ion turret. I really, REALLY want to run him fully loaded with blaster turret, rec spec and moldy crow, but that also makes him expensive. I think an ion turret is the way to go. Either you neuter the high ps flavor of the month, or you have created a huge r2 bubble that he wants to avoid at all costs, seriously cutting off options.

AS great as Torkil is, he's sadly not a rebel

Roark isn't near as good in my experience, though that PS 12 can come in handy and rebels can exploit it more than scum can (PS 12 R3-A2)

Green dice are a lie. If you shoot at it enough it will die despite having 4 agil. Fat han is here to stay. Its the decimator thats hurting the most from wave 6.

From our 30+ store champ tourney, there were a nice mix of new things, but wouldn't ya know it, a ripoff of Paul Heaver's exact Fat Han list won and went undefeated. My only losses of the day were to dual Phantom (Echo, Whisper) and Whisper/Kenkirk. Didn't lose a ship the other rounds.

Phantoms and Fat Hans are going nowhere. The meta has expanded, perhaps temporarily, but mostly due to new stuff. Nothing but changes to cards/game itself will tone down Phantoms and Falcons. Just get used to it and hope that enough new stuff works in to add variety. But if you want to be competitive, throw a Phantom or Falcon list together and you'll be fine.

Agreed, however I think the PS 8 Buzz droids may have some say. Then again you are right they will still be below PS 9 Whisper and Han. I think Torkil might be able to hit back at high PS ships.

From our 30+ store champ tourney, there were a nice mix of new things, but wouldn't ya know it, a ripoff of Paul Heaver's exact Fat Han list won and went undefeated. My only losses of the day were to dual Phantom (Echo, Whisper) and Whisper/Kenkirk. Didn't lose a ship the other rounds.

Phantoms and Fat Hans are going nowhere. The meta has expanded, perhaps temporarily, but mostly due to new stuff. Nothing but changes to cards/game itself will tone down Phantoms and Falcons. Just get used to it and hope that enough new stuff works in to add variety. But if you want to be competitive, throw a Phantom or Falcon list together and you'll be fine.

Agreed, however I think the PS 8 Buzz droids may have some say. Then again you are right they will still be below PS 9 Whisper and Han. I think Torkil might be able to hit back at high PS ships.

Buzzdroids?

?

?

(man what I wouldn't give to make Star Vipers as hilariously overpowered as they were in Empire at War)

From our 30+ store champ tourney, there were a nice mix of new things, but wouldn't ya know it, a ripoff of Paul Heaver's exact Fat Han list won and went undefeated. My only losses of the day were to dual Phantom (Echo, Whisper) and Whisper/Kenkirk. Didn't lose a ship the other rounds.

Phantoms and Fat Hans are going nowhere. The meta has expanded, perhaps temporarily, but mostly due to new stuff. Nothing but changes to cards/game itself will tone down Phantoms and Falcons. Just get used to it and hope that enough new stuff works in to add variety. But if you want to be competitive, throw a Phantom or Falcon list together and you'll be fine.

Agreed, however I think the PS 8 Buzz droids may have some say. Then again you are right they will still be below PS 9 Whisper and Han. I think Torkil might be able to hit back at high PS ships.

Buzzdroids?

?

?

IG-88B with Fire-Control Systems, and any other IG-2000 flying nearby.

Right, right, just a buzzsaw variant

("release the buzzdroids!" is much cooler, though...)

So, exactly how many store championships need to be won by Awing swarms, BBBZ, XXXZZZ, ect. before we realize that phantoms are not auto win, even against low PS ships?

Results are often underpinned by lucky matchups. If a Phantom players gets hard countered in the first and second rounds, then the A, B and XZ swarms can coast through to the end. But a competently flown Phantom list should have a good shot at murdering all those lists, head-to-head (assuming equal skills between opponents, and average dice rolling for each).

I think the Aggressors have replaced the buzzsaw shuttles much like how Tie Phantoms had replaced Tie Interceptors.

but they're not even in the same faction...

(also Buzzsaw shuttles are a full 8 points less than a naked aggressor )

Which Buzzsaw shuttle would you happen to be talking about?

The Buzzsaw I know if is the OGP (21) + EU (4) + FCS(2) + HLC (7) + Gunner (5) = 39 points.

Now two of them would cost less than IG-88 B&C each(36) with HLC (7) + FCS (2) So 2 Buzzsaw Shuttles would only cost 78 compared to the Buzzdroids B&C combo at 90 points.

I think the Aggressors have replaced the buzzsaw shuttles much like how Tie Phantoms had replaced Tie Interceptors.

but they're not even in the same faction...

(also Buzzsaw shuttles are a full 8 points less than a naked aggressor )

Which Buzzsaw shuttle would you happen to be talking about?

The Buzzsaw I know if is the OGP (21) + EU (4) + FCS(2) + HLC (7) + Gunner (5) = 39 points.

Now two of them would cost less than IG-88 B&C each(36) with HLC (7) + FCS (2) So 2 Buzzsaw Shuttles would only cost 78 compared to the Buzzdroids B&C combo at 90 points.

oh ****, that's one premium shuttle

the way I understood it, buzzsaw just happened to refer to the combination of FCS + Gunner and a buzzsaw shuttle just had to be FCS + Gunner for 28 points. The dial is craptastic as always, but it's incredibly cheap for its accuracy and it doesn't need actions to snipe things since FCS and Gunner obviously don't require actions (which, given that dial, is a very good thing)

Fat han isn't going anywhere until the advance fix hits the tournament scene.

And even then I don't see him going anywhere.

I think the Aggressors have replaced the buzzsaw shuttles much like how Tie Phantoms had replaced Tie Interceptors.

but they're not even in the same faction...

(also Buzzsaw shuttles are a full 8 points less than a naked aggressor )

Which Buzzsaw shuttle would you happen to be talking about?

The Buzzsaw I know if is the OGP (21) + EU (4) + FCS(2) + HLC (7) + Gunner (5) = 39 points.

Now two of them would cost less than IG-88 B&C each(36) with HLC (7) + FCS (2) So 2 Buzzsaw Shuttles would only cost 78 compared to the Buzzdroids B&C combo at 90 points.

oh ****, that's one premium shuttle

the way I understood it, buzzsaw just happened to refer to the combination of FCS + Gunner and a buzzsaw shuttle just had to be FCS + Gunner for 28 points. The dial is craptastic as always, but it's incredibly cheap for its accuracy and it doesn't need actions to snipe things since FCS and Gunner obviously don't require actions (which, given that dial, is a very good thing)

Buzzsaw Shuttle typically uses Engine Upgrade as well, for mobility's sake, but HLC + Gunner/FCS isn't worth the points.

Why? You'll be hitting with your first shot way more often, so spending the extra 7 points on gaining/boosting your second shot is too expensive.

Of the two, the FCS/Gunner combo is more effective.

32 points, total.

So, exactly how many store championships need to be won by Awing swarms, BBBZ, XXXZZZ, ect. before we realize that phantoms are not auto win, even against low PS ships?

Results are often underpinned by lucky matchups. If a Phantom players gets hard countered in the first and second rounds, then the A, B and XZ swarms can coast through to the end. But a competently flown Phantom list should have a good shot at murdering all those lists, head-to-head (assuming equal skills between opponents, and average dice rolling for each).

Which is exactly why I asked how many have to be won by things other than phantoms before people stop calling it a statistical outlier, and start calling it the norm. People keep calling phantoms auto win, and yet.......

So, exactly how many store championships need to be won by Awing swarms, BBBZ, XXXZZZ, ect. before we realize that phantoms are not auto win, even against low PS ships?

Results are often underpinned by lucky matchups. If a Phantom players gets hard countered in the first and second rounds, then the A, B and XZ swarms can coast through to the end. But a competently flown Phantom list should have a good shot at murdering all those lists, head-to-head (assuming equal skills between opponents, and average dice rolling for each).

Which is exactly why I asked how many have to be won by things other than phantoms before people stop calling it a statistical outlier, and start calling it the norm. People keep calling phantoms auto win, and yet.......

Tony, I don't really think that's what most reasonable arguments about with the phantom purport (that it's an "autowin"). It's much more about how it, as a single ship, drastically shrinks the number of viable competitive builds.

Check these two videos out, remembering that Phantoms and Turrets are things.

Extra Credits: Perfect Imbalance

Extra Credits: Counterplay

Check these two videos out, remembering that Phantoms and Turrets are things.

Extra Credits: Perfect Imbalance

Extra Credits: Counterplay

First link goes to Sable's battle report.

Check these two videos out, remembering that Phantoms and Turrets are things.

Extra Credits: Perfect Imbalance

Extra Credits: Counterplay

First link goes to Sable's battle report.

Whoops. Should be fixed now

So, exactly how many store championships need to be won by Awing swarms, BBBZ, XXXZZZ, ect. before we realize that phantoms are not auto win, even against low PS ships?

Results are often underpinned by lucky matchups. If a Phantom players gets hard countered in the first and second rounds, then the A, B and XZ swarms can coast through to the end. But a competently flown Phantom list should have a good shot at murdering all those lists, head-to-head (assuming equal skills between opponents, and average dice rolling for each).

Which is exactly why I asked how many have to be won by things other than phantoms before people stop calling it a statistical outlier, and start calling it the norm. People keep calling phantoms auto win, and yet.......

Tony, I don't really think that's what most reasonable arguments about with the phantom purport (that it's an "autowin"). It's much more about how it, as a single ship, drastically shrinks the number of viable competitive builds.

So, exactly how many store championships need to be won by Awing swarms, BBBZ, XXXZZZ, ect. before we realize that phantoms are not auto win, even against low PS ships?

Results are often underpinned by lucky matchups. If a Phantom players gets hard countered in the first and second rounds, then the A, B and XZ swarms can coast through to the end. But a competently flown Phantom list should have a good shot at murdering all those lists, head-to-head (assuming equal skills between opponents, and average dice rolling for each).

Which is exactly why I asked how many have to be won by things other than phantoms before people stop calling it a statistical outlier, and start calling it the norm. People keep calling phantoms auto win, and yet.......

Tony, I don't really think that's what most reasonable arguments about with the phantom purport (that it's an "autowin"). It's much more about how it, as a single ship, drastically shrinks the number of viable competitive builds.

Uh, what forums have you been rading dude? Lol. Let's be real, every thread talking about phantoms has at least one person saying "phantoms win against everything" or "phantoms always win against swarms" neither of which is true. Also saying it shrinks the number of viable builds isn't even true. It does to some extent because people freak out about them and only run hard counters instead of taking the time to learn to fly against them with other lists. Any list can beat them, you don't need to change the list, you need to change your tactics. And no one does. It's easier to cry about them and only run hard counters that take no new skills to win. Also, even if you need hard counters, there are so many hard counters to phantoms now.

Hence my use of the phrase "reasonable arguments." I wasn't talking about the arguments of hyperbole that it "can't be beaten" and it does take skill to fly well, so mistakes that are made by phantom players are often incredibly costly (thankfully).

You and I don't have a lot of regular phantom players in the Twin Cities, and that's likely because most people fly hard counters to them on a regular basis, though there are a couple. It's a very different game, in my experience, if you play someone that is very good with them and an uphill battle if your list doesn't have a good counter (no matter how well you fly that list yourself).

I do hope you're right that scum will offer a few more tricks to depress it's usage a bit more and thus widen out the usage of other types of ships. I think it will be interesting to see if it's still a dominant ship by regionals for sure.