Been away for a while, just asking...do hi-ps Phantoms vs. Han + VI still define the "meta"? Or has FFG sorted out these buggers in some way?
So, are hi-ps Phantoms / Han Shoots First still the rave?
The meta is in a nice state of flux at the moment!
No matter what list you bring, you're likely to face some easy matchups and some hard matchups.
Of note,
- BBBBZ has seen some success lately
- Lots of people have been trying out dual IG-88s
- Corran + Dash has seen success
- Decimator + Phantom and Fat Han are still going strong
- Y-Wings with BTL-A4 title are popular
- Dual scum Firesprays are seeing some play
- etc...
Well, they are definitely something to watch out for. I suggest looking at the last few pages of this thread:
It's about all the store championship results.
There have been a lot of variety in some of the events. BBBBZ has been a real hit. I've also seen XXXZZZ as a good build. There are some events that are exactly like you would expect the lists to be with lots of Decimators + Phantoms, Fat Hans, and Fat Dash. There are also a lot of events that have unusual lists and almost no turrets. Scum has also shaken things up a bit.
High ps phantoms are here to stay
I've also seen Rebel Control have a lot of influence.
We've learned other ways of taking out the Phantom now, and Autothrusters put a hurting on the turrets.
Wave 5 was the Pic and Gorc meta. Wave 6 is moving past that, even though Pic and Gorc fleets are still pretty good.
And unfortunately, it seems the dual-88s are going to make high PS phantoms (and any other ship with reactive movement) all the more likely.
From our 30+ store champ tourney, there were a nice mix of new things, but wouldn't ya know it, a ripoff of Paul Heaver's exact Fat Han list won and went undefeated. My only losses of the day were to dual Phantom (Echo, Whisper) and Whisper/Kenkirk. Didn't lose a ship the other rounds.
Phantoms and Fat Hans are going nowhere. The meta has expanded, perhaps temporarily, but mostly due to new stuff. Nothing but changes to cards/game itself will tone down Phantoms and Falcons. Just get used to it and hope that enough new stuff works in to add variety. But if you want to be competitive, throw a Phantom or Falcon list together and you'll be fine.
And unfortunately, it seems the dual-88s are going to make high PS phantoms (and any other ship with reactive movement) all the more likely.
Ehh. They're not that tough, honestly.
And unfortunately, it seems the dual-88s are going to make high PS phantoms (and any other ship with reactive movement) all the more likely.
Ehh. They're not that tough, honestly.
Judging by your number of posts, I'm willing to concede you're a more experienced player than me. By a lot. And so I'll take your word for it.
But for my playstyle, I feel the 88's, like Phantoms and other ships/lists, require hard counters to beat. And I don't like those types of games, because it seems the outcome is far more dependant on 'what you took' than what you did with what you took.
And unfortunately, it seems the dual-88s are going to make high PS phantoms (and any other ship with reactive movement) all the more likely.
Ehh. They're not that tough, honestly.
Judging by your number of posts, I'm willing to concede you're a more experienced player than me. By a lot. And so I'll take your word for it.
But for my playstyle, I feel the 88's, like Phantoms and other ships/lists, require hard counters to beat. And I don't like those types of games, because it seems the outcome is far more dependant on 'what you took' than what you did with what you took.
Best tool to use against the 88s are the Asteroids.
Figure out how to get those in a tight cluster, then play out the first 2-4 turns so that the engagement happens THERE.
The Aggressor's speed is one of its best assets, but it's also its largest weakness.
It cannot slow down (without Expert Handling).
While they're facing the Asteroids, block the short-range options (as the Asteroids block the long), and suddenly your opponent is getting no actions, and cannot control their steering nearly as well.
Bet ya dollars to doughnuts that you can take 'em out at that point.
Those two will never not be a factor in competitive play. Every list still has to plan around both.
While the Meta is in flux from the MUCH NEEDED VARIETY Wave 6 brought, there are a few things to be said:
1.) Tie Interceptors don't get curb stomped in the nuts by turrets anymore.
2.) Auto-thrusters don't make turrets suck, they make Tie Interceptors viable.
3.) Similarly, BTL-A4 title gives the Y-wing the option to threaten fat turrets with damage rather than plinking away uselessly with an ion cannon
4.) Scum is fresh and really ******* fun. They're a slower, low PS faction with heavy emphasis on positioning relative not just to your own ships (Xizor, deadman's aoe) but mostly to your opponents' (deadman's again, feedback array, auto-blaster turret, Boba Fett, Guri, Palob & Mux, Emon and all the bombs you can shake a stick at)
5.) Moving onto phantom hate, Wave 6 brought the scum-only Feedback array (which does the impossible of letting Z-95s threaten phantoms without having to roll a single die, making it in this poster's opinion the best thing evah 
), Emon (prox mines for everyone!), Palob, and Mux (who seemed genetically engineered to **** over ACD, specifically, but he's quite fun in general)
More generally, Most Wanted introduced bombs to Y-wings for more Prox Mine anti-arc dodger fun, as well as the Auto-blaster Turret. The range 1 limitation is rough, unless you know how to cover your squadron really well, but let me tell you this thing is ******* scary. Just one auto-blaster Y-wing will rip a phantom's shields off without issue, provided you get the shot.
And that's the gist of it. The boringness of the Wave 5 meta is still hyper viable, but Wave 6 brought with it tools to zap the Tie Interceptor and the Y-wing in the nuts to give Imps and Rebels more options respectively. S&V also arrived jam packed full of anti-phantom tech to offset their lower PS pilots.
And unfortunately, it seems the dual-88s are going to make high PS phantoms (and any other ship with reactive movement) all the more likely.
Ehh. They're not that tough, honestly.
Judging by your number of posts, I'm willing to concede you're a more experienced player than me. By a lot. And so I'll take your word for it.
But for my playstyle, I feel the 88's, like Phantoms and other ships/lists, require hard counters to beat. And I don't like those types of games, because it seems the outcome is far more dependant on 'what you took' than what you did with what you took.
Best tool to use against the 88s are the Asteroids.
Figure out how to get those in a tight cluster, then play out the first 2-4 turns so that the engagement happens THERE.
The Aggressor's speed is one of its best assets, but it's also its largest weakness.
It cannot slow down (without Expert Handling).
While they're facing the Asteroids, block the short-range options (as the Asteroids block the long), and suddenly your opponent is getting no actions, and cannot control their steering nearly as well.
Bet ya dollars to doughnuts that you can take 'em out at that point.
Asking in earnest:
1. Isn't a halfway decent Aggressor player know that asteroids are his bane, and at the very least position his 3 so they are entirely out of his way? 3 Asteroids do not a "tight cluster" make.
2. Likewise he ought to know when you are trying to lure him into it....
3. ?? I'm not sure what you mean by slowing down. It doesn't have to boost, and it has every 1 maneuver available...and every other maneuver for that matter. Aside from Lambda...what does it not have that any other ship doesn't have to deal with?
4. Let's assume I can do this (block the short with ship and long with asteroid). Thats 1 of my ships (the blocker) that 1 of his ships cannot shoot. With advanced sensors (and, thanks to B, that's really the better option than FCS), he may not be starved for actions. Regardless, that still allows his other ship to shoot my blocker, and/or his blocked ship to shoot at my other ships. And they kinda hit hard.
I really see the only option being high PS reactive movement ships with minimum 3 firepower. Anything less is going to bounce off his 3 agi + evade (C's)
The meta in our area seemed to change overnight with S&V. There were boatloads of Decimator and YT builds in the three store championships leading up to last weekend. But last Saturday everyone showed up with more swarm-like lists (e.g.Tie Fighters, BBBBZ), and S&V builds to try out. Not a turret, YT or Decimator in sight, and very few Phantoms. It was like the prior wave didn't even exist. I agree that Aggressors were less powerful than anticipated, but they may get a little better once people gain skill at piloting such a maneuverable large base ship.
From our 30+ store champ tourney, there were a nice mix of new things, but wouldn't ya know it, a ripoff of Paul Heaver's exact Fat Han list won and went undefeated.
He lost one match.
Excised for brevity's sake
Asking in earnest:
1. Isn't a halfway decent Aggressor player know that asteroids are his bane, and at the very least position his 3 so they are entirely out of his way? 3 Asteroids do not a "tight cluster" make.
2. Likewise he ought to know when you are trying to lure him into it....
Yes, these two steps can be counter-played. At the highest levels, you'll have to deal with an asteroid cluster of 3, which is sufficient for creating an advantage.
Still, they cannot resist your lure without refusing to engage, because::
3. ?? I'm not sure what you mean by slowing down. It doesn't have to boost, and it has every 1 maneuver available...and every other maneuver for that matter. Aside from Lambda...what does it not have that any other ship doesn't have to deal with?
They are a Large-Base ship with a single firing-arc. They move forward an extra base-length on every maneuver, compared to Small-Base ships.
Even when they're trying to move slowly, it's like going with a 2 forward/bank/turn on a Small-ship, which is more of a Medium speed, at best.
Yes, that's a problem shared by every other Large-Base ship. However, the 3 Turrets and the Firespray make up for this by having alternate firing solutions, and so can remain effective in combat while not actually approaching the combat.
The Shuttle and Aggressor, on the other hand, must fly towards what they're shooting, or choose not to shoot.
4. Let's assume I can do this (block the short with ship and long with asteroid). Thats 1 of my ships (the blocker) that 1 of his ships cannot shoot. With advanced sensors (and, thanks to B, that's really the better option than FCS), he may not be starved for actions. Regardless, that still allows his other ship to shoot my blocker, and/or his blocked ship to shoot at my other ships. And they kinda hit hard.
The advantage of Blocking doesn't come from stopping their action economy: it's in preventing their movement.
They won't be able to turn to face the rest of your fleet.
Yes, one of your ships is unlikely to be able to shoot at either of theirs. But, in exchange, one of their fleet should be completely unable to shoot at any of yours (unless you have bad positioning).
They hit kinda hard for a single ship, but it's still only a single ship shooting at you, vs all of your fleet (minus one ship) shooting at the guy you're blocking.
Edited by DraconPyrothayanThose two will never not be a factor in competitive play. Every list still has to plan around both.
While the Meta is in flux from the MUCH NEEDED VARIETY Wave 6 brought, there are a few things to be said:
1.) Tie Interceptors don't get curb stomped in the nuts by turrets anymore.
2.) Auto-thrusters don't make turrets suck, they make Tie Interceptors viable.
...................(shortened quote)
And that's the gist of it. The boringness of the Wave 5 meta is still hyper viable, but Wave 6 brought with it tools to zap the Tie Interceptor and the Y-wing in the nuts to give Imps and Rebels more options respectively. S&V also arrived jam packed full of anti-phantom tech to offset their lower PS pilots.
This is so true. S&V adds great dynamics. No offense intended to other pilots, but I did find the fat turret over-emphasis in tournaments boring and am glad to see new blood in the game. Ironically, I brought auto thrusters to a tourney with no fat turrets last weekend and so I made up for it by getting curb stomped by my own dice...
Draco, I'm skeptical but still don't like it. I got a beatdown last night and it made me a very sad 'mistro. You know how sometimes you lose but it was still a great game, and sometimes you lose, even if you outplayed our opponent with what you had and you still feel dirty and violated and...unsatisfied? Yeah, that was last night's game.
The meta in our area seemed to change overnight with S&V. There were boatloads of Decimator and YT builds in the three store championships leading up to last weekend. But last Saturday everyone showed up with more swarm-like lists (e.g.Tie Fighters, BBBBZ), and S&V builds to try out. Not a turret, YT or Decimator in sight, and very few Phantoms. It was like the prior wave didn't even exist. I agree that Aggressors were less powerful than anticipated, but they may get a little better once people gain skill at piloting such a maneuverable large base ship.
It seems to go in a bit of a cycle
multiple ships builds (yay we're having fun ) --> phantom introduced to meta (I can get some easy wins with this 
) --> turrets introduced to counter phantoms (boring as ****, but at least you don't have to think about phantoms 
) --> multiple ship builds to steamroll turrets (yay we're having fun )
and so on and so forth
You can break yourself out of the cycle (and achieve some sort of enlightenment, I guess) by running Rebel Control lists that have the dice to steamroll turrets and have the mechanics to counter Phantoms. They're jolly great fun 
Draco, I'm skeptical but still don't like it. I got a beatdown last night and it made me a very sad 'mistro. You know how sometimes you lose but it was still a great game, and sometimes you lose, even if you outplayed our opponent with what you had and you still feel dirty and violated and...unsatisfied? Yeah, that was last night's game.
PM me your list and his. I'll help commiserate 
I think the Aggressors have replaced the buzzsaw shuttles much like how Tie Phantoms had replaced Tie Interceptors.
I think the Aggressors have replaced the buzzsaw shuttles much like how Tie Phantoms had replaced Tie Interceptors.
but they're not even in the same faction...
(also Buzzsaw shuttles are a full 8 points less than a naked aggressor 
)
Here's what the last 30 days have looked like on the podium: http://xwing.macker.co/squads.php?d=30&f=0
So, apart from Han + VI + allsortsofgoodies, what is the most optimal way for rebels (or scum) to handle those pesky hi-ps Phantoms?
So, apart from Han + VI + allsortsofgoodies, what is the most optimal way for rebels (or scum) to handle those pesky hi-ps Phantoms?
Luke Skywalker (V.I, R3-A2, Engine Upgrade) [35]
Blue Squadron B-wing (B/e mod --> Tactician) [25]
Blue Squadron B-wing (B/e mod --> Tactician) [25]
Prototype Pilot (refit) [15]
happy hunting!
(though if you want to try the new snazziess, it'll be Y-wings with either proximity mines or auto-blaster turrets)
Death Blossom Swarm
Panic Attack
Ions
Feedback Array / Deadman Switch / Hot Shot
Scum Hwks