Ive been reading up on some of the rules and looking at mon mothma and wondering if the original rules for the evade still apply

Evade: At long range, the defender cancels one attack die of its choice. At medium range, it chooses one attack die to be rerolled. At close range or distance 1, this token has no effect.

The best case scenario for rebel players would be if the effects stacked

Ex 1: You could either cancel 1 die at long range, cancel 1 die AND reroll one die at medium range, or reroll 1 die at close range

Or does the mon mothma card replace the original rules for Evade

Ex 2: ships can cancel 1 die at medium or reroll 1 at close range/distance 1 but no longer cancel a die at long range reroll 1 at medium range.

I read it as being an optional different resolution that the player can choose if it benefits them more.

So take the version that has more benefit to your defence that turn.

Based on the fact it says "it can" not it must.

Having said that however, for 30 points that seems a bit weak, so perhaps it is a stackable ability giving Rebels a big defence buff at that medium range band.

Language on the card says can cancel, which makes it an option to do so. So i would say that you can either cancel 1 die at medium range, OR reroll one die at medium, as per the standard evade rules. Theres no mention of "in addition to", so i don't see how it would stack.

I too believe it is a this OR that option.

Where I see this ability having some use is against any upgrades similar to the Assault Concussion Missiles. It says you "can cancel 1 die" so I would cancel the critical die if it was going to trigger an upgrade card like that. Actually, this card may be very useful in reducing the number of critical's your ships take in general.

The rules reference do include this phrase at the bottom of pg 4.

'Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect.'

So the argument then becomes is resolving an Evade token the 'cost' of the Mon Mothma upgrade. Most upgrades have clearly defined costs like 'Blue Crit' for Overload Pulse or the upgrade will state 'spend a blue die' like in the leading shots upgrade

The Mon Mothma card doesnt specify any cost but rather the effect applies whenever you resolve an 'evade' token

I agree it sounds like it would be too good to get both the cancel and the reroll at medium range, but Mon Mothma is the rebels most expensive commander as of now and honestly considering the limitations on spending defense tokens, and the attackers accuracy results preventing you from even using them it might not be as strong as it sounds for the 30 pt cost tag even IF you get to cancel+reroll at medium range

It should probably have some verbage about 'instead' on it...

When I read it, at first glance, I thought it basically just 'shortened' the range of evade by 1 so Long/Medium = Cancelled Die, Short = Rerolled Die.

If it did stack then: Long = Cancelled Die, Medium = Cancelled AND Rerolled Die, and Short = Rerolled Die - that seems clunky and inconsistent to me. (though the difference in interpretation is only 1 extra rerolled die).

Definitely need a FAQ clarification for this IMO.

The wording says "it can" which suggests its an optional ability (as opposed to something like "it must"). Plus it would be pretty rubbish if it was always in effect.

The rules spell out that abilities given by upgrades are optional unless the upgrade specifically says otherwise. So you may either use her ability or use the standard ability.

The rules spell out that abilities given by upgrades are optional unless the upgrade specifically says otherwise. So you may either use her ability or use the standard ability.

Is it in the L2P rules or the Rules reference? Could you post a page number for me when you get time?

Thanks in advance

The more I read the card, the more I think it's additional to the existing evade ability

1) it's 30 freeking points - that's almost as much as another corvette!

2) it doesn't say "when a ship resolves an evade it may instead..." Just that it can. Alternatively if it was intended to be a replacement it could be worded "a ship may spend an evade token to..." But instead it just says that when doing an evade you can do this.

3) it's a commander ability, which is supposed to be a large benefit to the fleet, compared against Tarkin who gives a free command token, Bel Iblis who gives multiple tokens, Dodonna who lets you choose the most nasty crit, Screed who guarantees crits, and Motti who boosts hull points, just saying it lets you.use evade a range closer instead seams very very weak.

Even if it is boosting evade massively, then they will still only be negating one attack by using it, leaving them more vulnerable for a second attack, and giving all the more reason to get close to neutralise the rebel flagship with lots of black dice!

The section on Defence tokens in the rules reference states that if a defence token is spent for some other effect, such as an upgrade card, its regular effect does not happen.

I think that rules should be given precedent over speculation about how the ability "should" work, given the point cost; especially as we haven't had the chance to play with anything. And since everything else seems to have changed, there's a decent chance her point cost changes by the time we see her.

The section on Defence tokens in the rules reference states that if a defence token is spent for some other effect, such as an upgrade card, its regular effect does not happen.

I agree, but the card doesn't say "a ship may spend an evade token to.." So its not doing that. Rather its saying "when a friendly ship resolves an evade token effect" So the evade effect already has to happen.

The section on Defence tokens in the rules reference states that if a defence token is spent for some other effect, such as an upgrade card, its regular effect does not happen.

I agree, but the card doesn't say "a ship may spend an evade token to.." So its not doing that. Rather its saying "when a friendly shp resolves an evade token effect" So the evade effect already has to happen.

Well, FFG is putting together an FAQ, so send them the question and I'm sure they'll clear it up before the expansion is even out.

The rules spell out that abilities given by upgrades are optional unless the upgrade specifically says otherwise. So you may either use her ability or use the standard ability.

Is it in the L2P rules or the Rules reference? Could you post a page number for me when you get time?

Thanks in advance

In the Rules Reference, page 5, 2/3 of the way down the right column,

"Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified."

Its just shifting the Evade token effect into closer range brackets. Card text is instead of the standard rule, so at long range you would simply use the evade token normal effect, at medium and short you would use the card text. Either was you should always use the card text, and the two effects do not stack as the card does not mention long range at all.

Its just shifting the Evade token effect into closer range brackets. Card text is instead of the standard rule, so at long range you would simply use the evade token normal effect, at medium and short you would use the card text. Either was you should always use the card text, and the two effects do not stack as the card does not mention long range at all.

I think you are right, because The Golden Rule in page 1 of the Rules References says:

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

The Mon Mothma effect does not cancel the long rage effect of the standard rule explicitly. Only changes the medium and close range effect.

Reading this as judge for several game systems, and comparing Mon Mothma to some other cards, I have to think that the additional effect stacks until explicitly stated otherwise in errata or FAQ. For 10% of your fleet cost in a standard game, I'd kind of expect something powerful.

Mon Mothma's text reads as "When resolving the token, you may do [things]". It does not say anything about not being able to also do [usual things] too. The rules being quoted here against the token's normal effect resolving reference spending a token in order to trigger an ability, but Mon Mothma doesn't "spend" the token, as her text does not follow the "[cost]: [effect]" format. In order to be a replacement effect I would think the card would either have to say "instead of ", or read something along the lines of "All friendly ships gain the following - [Evade token]: You may cancel 1 die at medium range or reroll 1 die at close range or range 1."

Guys, all of this is covered on Page 5, in the right hand column. There is a long list of general rules there that clarify a great many things.

The very next line, after the one I previously quoted.

"If a dial, token, die, or other component is spent as part of a card effect’s cost, that component does not also produce its normal effect."

Since you spend the evade token to produce the effect, you choose which of the two happens.

No saying you are wrong necessarily Kinetic but no where on Mon Mothma's card does it say to spend an evade token.

Some days I hate being a 40k refugee.

It does day when resolving an evade token effect, which requires the expenditure of the token.

No saying you are wrong necessarily Kinetic but no where on Mon Mothma's card does it say to spend an evade token.

^^ This.

Some days I hate being a 40k refugee.

^^ And this.

As I stated above, the wording of Mon Mothma doesn't follow the established structure of "[trigger/cost] : [effect]". It's in a grey area, and it's something that really surprises me from the FFG team just because I'm so used to them getting these things right. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that the effect will or will not stack once this is fully clarified, but as written I'd personally have to rule for a game that I wasn't playing in that it works, and most likely avoid using it myself.

It does day when resolving an evade token effect, which requires the expenditure of the token.

Right, which implies that the evade token effect IS resolving.

It does day when resolving an evade token effect, which requires the expenditure of the token.

Right, which implies that the evade token effect IS resolving.

Yea thats how i look at it, it seems like you just resolve the evade action as normal and the mon mothma rules also apply.

When you resolve a evade you are simply resolving an evade as written in the rules and the mon mothma card is modifying the way the evade works by adding more to it. Your not resolving the 'mon mothma' card.

Plus as has been pointed out the mon mothma card deviates from other upgrades that specifically state their 'cost' in the card such as the following

In these examples the cards 'cost' is clearly defined as 1 blue die, or spend 1 die respectively

You may very well be right kinetic, but I think we might have to wait for ffg's faq before we can know for sure one way or the other

You are correct that it is worded differently, and it certainly doesn't hurt to ask for a direct answer. Especially since we aren't even playing the game yet... :-)

Regardless, she looks quite useful.