As many here, I like the combined ragtag fleet theme of Rebel forces, but the Empire is the embodiment of my values. It's funny how it's described as the puppy-kicking evil incarnate especially through the nazi Germany stylization, but if you actually take a better look at the Galaxy you will notice that every planet that willingly submitted to the Empire was prosperous. Empire wasn't all about repression - it was all about progress, efficiency and unity. If anyone was evil there, it was the Emperor - the faction itself was awesome and it's only downside was racism towards other species, but again, it was just Palpatine's quirk - all those officers worked their whole lives as part of the Republic, which openly accepted other species and I don't believe all the high ranked imperial officials shared the racism.

Rebels on the other hand are obviously the good, heroic and selfless european Resistance members, so it's obvious the movies had to glorify them beyond imagining for propaganda reasons. I'm not saying that the Alliance To Restore The Republic was bad - their goals were pretty decent, they wanted democracy to return to the Galaxy, but other than that they didn't stand for pretty much anything else. Maybe some little propaganda fluff about helping repressed aliens, but that was extremely minor.

Except for "hurrdurr freedom!" the Rebels didn't stand for much. The Empire had a bigger picture in mind. I don't fully support it's ideas, because it obviously was meant to look grotesquely evil, but it could've made the Galaxy a unified, prosperous place.

And if you read EU books, Rebels' victory only made things worse for the next two hundred years.

It's kinda like Roman Empire and barbarians, although the latter, unlike Rebs, weren't glorified as the heroic Resistance members. They saw romans as the evil that threatened them, but again - every province prospered and, in the long run, it was better to be a part of it.

So if I can defend those ideals with all the wedge-shaped, awe inspiring instruments of terror, then I'm all up for it! The plot armor is not going to protect the Rebels when the game is balanced!

Except for "hurrdurr freedom!" the Rebels didn't stand for much. The Empire had a bigger picture in mind. I don't fully support it's ideas, because it obviously was meant to look grotesquely evil, but and it could've made the Galaxy a unified, prosperous place.

I fixed it for you, my brother Imperial.

The 'hurrdurr freedom' that the rebellion is looking to re-establish was 'freedom' from the necessity of doing what is right. Most beings (particularly aliens) do not have the self-discipline the way that most humans do, ie. to do what is right and proper in order to make a society flourish. Freedom - properly understood - is the opportunity to do what one ought to do, not the license to behave irresponsibly or without virtue.

Understanding the difference between authentic liberty and license is only something that is embedded in (most) human cultures, which the various life forms from the Outer Rim simply cannot understand. They cannot manage to administer a zone of security in which they can cooperate in something bigger and larger than themselves, for the greater ultimate good. Instead, they spend all their time squabbling in their sectors of squalor (see the Arkanis sector, which is effectively ruled by a criminal Hutt spice lord), and never making something of themselves.

You cannot have progress without security, order, and a vision for the future. In short: the New Order.

Where's your source saying that all planets which willingly supported the Empire prospered? Because from what I've read Dac/Mon Cala supported the Empire but still got hit with an Imperial invasion and enslavement mission. It was only after that invasion that they began plotting a revolt which eventually led to them becoming the Alliance's largest shipbuilding center.

And while I agree the Empire could have been a good thing with the speciest elements, and the tendency to overreact to peaceful protests or accidents where the Imperial forces involved are as much if not more fault then the civilians involved. And of course get rd of the obsession with efficiency at all costs, Efficiency is a good thing but not if you are killing people just to save a little time.

The problem is that a system like the Empire is much easier to corrupt then a Republic because more power is concentrated in fewer hands and there are fewer restraintss on those that do have power.

all this philosophy

where the **** is the AF, I just want to blow **** up!

I like how this thread started as sympathy for the rebels, and now has turned into glorifying the Empire.

As many here, I like the combined ragtag fleet theme of Rebel forces, but the Empire is the embodiment of my values. It's funny how it's described as the puppy-kicking evil incarnate especially through the nazi Germany stylization, but if you actually take a better look at the Galaxy you will notice that every planet that willingly submitted to the Empire was prosperous. Empire wasn't all about repression - it was all about progress, efficiency and unity. If anyone was evil there, it was the Emperor - the faction itself was awesome and it's only downside was racism towards other species, but again, it was just Palpatine's quirk - all those officers worked their whole lives as part of the Republic, which openly accepted other species and I don't believe all the high ranked imperial officials shared the racism.

Rebels on the other hand are obviously the good, heroic and selfless european Resistance members, so it's obvious the movies had to glorify them beyond imagining for propaganda reasons. I'm not saying that the Alliance To Restore The Republic was bad - their goals were pretty decent, they wanted democracy to return to the Galaxy, but other than that they didn't stand for pretty much anything else. Maybe some little propaganda fluff about helping repressed aliens, but that was extremely minor.

Except for "hurrdurr freedom!" the Rebels didn't stand for much. The Empire had a bigger picture in mind. I don't fully support it's ideas, because it obviously was meant to look grotesquely evil, but it could've made the Galaxy a unified, prosperous place.

And if you read EU books, Rebels' victory only made things worse for the next two hundred years.

It's kinda like Roman Empire and barbarians, although the latter, unlike Rebs, weren't glorified as the heroic Resistance members. They saw romans as the evil that threatened them, but again - every province prospered and, in the long run, it was better to be a part of it.

So if I can defend those ideals with all the wedge-shaped, awe inspiring instruments of terror, then I'm all up for it! The plot armor is not going to protect the Rebels when the game is balanced!

It's fun to fantasize and make fun stories but if you look at the Empire as a Core it was not a Good society. Read the books (current ones in canon. Some of the old books went Way off base.) and you will see the theme plain as day. Nothing, and I mean Nothing mattered in the Empire but the Emperor and the only reward was to sever him well. That was the Sith way, the strongest rules and no one else matters.

And if you look back at the old films you will see the Nazi comparison was on purpose, it was no accident. They meant the Empire to be a selfserving entity there to make itself more powerful for the sake of power, not to better anyone's life outside of the Emperor. That is what the mythology of the Empire is and has been.

The Old Republic was based on a Democracy similar to many of our Western culture governments, and the Empire is a total tolalitarian state where the take ove of the Old Republic was to be exactly like how (he who should not be named) took over power in Germany in the 1930's.

Now I know no one wants to think of themselves playing Nazis so forget the purposely laid out frame work of the politics and the way citizens of the Empire were treated by Imperial personnel. (Which the Imperial personnel were trained to think of the citizens as nothing more than scum and treated as such. They were expendable assets of the Empire.)

I mean I hate to say it but the Empire was the Emperor, and I do mean the Empire was the Emperor. That is how Sith Empires are built.

Now to elaborate a little.

The Emperor of course didn't want his citizens to believe they meant nothing but also wanted them to Fear the repercussions of not obeying. That is what the political information controllers did, they spun the News so anyone who might speak against the Empire were made to look like they were against the interest of the Empire which in turn meant its people. They turned the Holonets into a means to spread the cult of personality that was the Emperor.

Also the Empire Watched everyone they could over spy cameras everywhere in areas important to the Empire and there anyone who said stuff that was against the Empire's interest disappeared, forever. (Death or slave mines, which I guess is still death.) also the quality of life for the vast majority of citizens kept getting worse and worse, but the Emperor didn't do it all at once (much like a toad in water that you slowly bring to boil.) so the citizens didn't see out right how bad their lives got. And the constant news of how their lives are in constant danger and only the Empire can bring them security was feed to them daily.

As for those who served the military and government services they were trained over time to believe Everyone is expendable and those who caused even slight problems need to be dealt with harshly. Those that did not buy this philosophy never advance and tend to have no position of power. So you learned to play the game and believe or remain in a vulnerable position. They never have the public's interests in mind and if given orders they will kill whole populations without much remorse. (Or at least those who get into upper command don't, everyone else are just following orders they were taught is good for the Empire.)

Alderaan was not the act of genocide the Empire committed, it is just the one everyone knows from the movie. What do you think slave camps were, they were concentration camps were those deemed undesirable go to die. Ask the Wookies.

But this is maybe too long but I can go on with what happens with in the Empire but unfortunately I have not read all the EU books and don't know the obscure books were the Imperials were given a good nature. This was not how a Sith Empire runs.

Now was everyone who served the Empire Evil? No. Many were just serving what they were taught to be their way of life. But those individuals never get anywhere in a Sith Empire. (I could explain the difference between a regular Germany soldier and an SS but just mentioning them I think gets across the idea.)

The Old Republic was based on a Democracy [...] and the Empire is a total tolalitarian state where the take ove of the Old Republic [...]

[...]

I mean I hate to say it but the Empire was the Emperor, and I do mean the Empire was the Emperor. That is how Sith Empires are built.

I think in your zeal to restore the Republic, I think you fantasize too much about the nature of that Old Republic.

It was so inclusive of everyone and everything in the Galaxy that it became ruinous to the humans who really made the galaxy work as a society. I don't mean to condone what the Separatists did or anything, but groups like the Commerce Guild really were taxed and regulated to the point of overburden, just so that denizens out on the Outer Rim could be supported with a lavish lifestyle and security be maintained for them on the Core's credit.

Of course, the Empire still does patrol the Outer Rim in order to maintain some security, and therefore that supreme benefit for the aliens out there - so it's not like the Empire is without heart or anything - but at least the people of the Core are able to really thrive in this way, without being taxed into poverty and deprived of their liberties through overregulation, the way that they were under this "Democracy" that you hold up as some ideal.

And then saying that the "Empire was the Emperor"... well, would you prefer it to be for Jar Jar Binks or something? Even Jar Jar Binks recognized that the Emperor was better for the galaxy as a whole, otherwise he wouldn't have made the motion to grant power to Senator Palpatine to begin with.

If you believe in Democracy, then you should respect the Senate's decision that the Senate should be stripped of power. If you're saying that the Senate cannot be trusted with decisions like that, then clearly you're not a real believer in democracy.

And that's the thing: behind every Rebel there's really a totalitarian screaming to get out. You simply can't stand the fact that even aliens realize that they can't be trusted with their own governance.

The Old Republic was based on a Democracy [...] and the Empire is a total tolalitarian state where the take ove of the Old Republic [...]

[...]

I mean I hate to say it but the Empire was the Emperor, and I do mean the Empire was the Emperor. That is how Sith Empires are built.

I think in your zeal to restore the Republic, I think you fantasize too much about the nature of that Old Republic.

It was so inclusive of everyone and everything in the Galaxy that it became ruinous to the humans who really made the galaxy work as a society. I don't mean to condone what the Separatists did or anything, but groups like the Commerce Guild really were taxed and regulated to the point of overburden, just so that denizens out on the Outer Rim could be supported with a lavish lifestyle and security be maintained for them on the Core's credit.

Of course, the Empire still does patrol the Outer Rim in order to maintain some security, and therefore that supreme benefit for the aliens out there - so it's not like the Empire is without heart or anything - but at least the people of the Core are able to really thrive in this way, without being taxed into poverty and deprived of their liberties through overregulation, the way that they were under this "Democracy" that you hold up as some ideal.

And then saying that the "Empire was the Emperor"... well, would you prefer it to be for Jar Jar Binks or something? Even Jar Jar Binks recognized that the Emperor was better for the galaxy as a whole, otherwise he wouldn't have made the motion to grant power to Senator Palpatine to begin with.

If you believe in Democracy, then you should respect the Senate's decision that the Senate should be stripped of power. If you're saying that the Senate cannot be trusted with decisions like that, then clearly you're not a real believer in democracy.

And that's the thing: behind every Rebel there's really a totalitarian screaming to get out. You simply can't stand the fact that even aliens realize that they can't be trusted with their own governance.

As many here, I like the combined ragtag fleet theme of Rebel forces, but the Empire is the embodiment of my values. It's funny how it's described as the puppy-kicking evil incarnate especially through the nazi Germany stylization, but if you actually take a better look at the Galaxy you will notice that every planet that willingly submitted to the Empire was prosperous. Empire wasn't all about repression - it was all about progress, efficiency and unity. If anyone was evil there, it was the Emperor - the faction itself was awesome and it's only downside was racism towards other species, but again, it was just Palpatine's quirk - all those officers worked their whole lives as part of the Republic, which openly accepted other species and I don't believe all the high ranked imperial officials shared the racism.

Rebels on the other hand are obviously the good, heroic and selfless european Resistance members, so it's obvious the movies had to glorify them beyond imagining for propaganda reasons. I'm not saying that the Alliance To Restore The Republic was bad - their goals were pretty decent, they wanted democracy to return to the Galaxy, but other than that they didn't stand for pretty much anything else. Maybe some little propaganda fluff about helping repressed aliens, but that was extremely minor.

Except for "hurrdurr freedom!" the Rebels didn't stand for much. The Empire had a bigger picture in mind. I don't fully support it's ideas, because it obviously was meant to look grotesquely evil, but it could've made the Galaxy a unified, prosperous place.

And if you read EU books, Rebels' victory only made things worse for the next two hundred years.

It's kinda like Roman Empire and barbarians, although the latter, unlike Rebs, weren't glorified as the heroic Resistance members. They saw romans as the evil that threatened them, but again - every province prospered and, in the long run, it was better to be a part of it.

So if I can defend those ideals with all the wedge-shaped, awe inspiring instruments of terror, then I'm all up for it! The plot armor is not going to protect the Rebels when the game is balanced!

I do hope you are just kidding around here becuase the Empire was modeled after Nazi Germany and in the end the Empire Was a Sith Empire which meant the Empire existed For the Emperor. Everything else was just a means to an end, his end.

It's fun to fantasize and make fun stories but if you look at the Empire as a Core it was not a Good society. Read the books (current ones in canon. Some of the old books went Way off base.) and you will see the theme plain as day. Nothing, and I mean Nothing mattered in the Empire but the Emperor and the only reward was to sever him well. That was the Sith way, the strongest rules and no one else matters.

And if you look back at the old films you will see the Nazi comparison was on purpose, it was no accident. They meant the Empire to be a selfserving entity there to make itself more powerful for the sake of power, not to better anyone's life outside of the Emperor. That is what the mythology of the Empire is and has been.

The Old Republic was based on a Democracy similar to many of our Western culture governments, and the Empire is a total tolalitarian state where the take ove of the Old Republic was to be exactly like how (he who should not be named) took over power in Germany in the 1930's.

Now I know no one wants to think of themselves playing Nazis so forget the purposely laid out frame work of the politics and the way citizens of the Empire were treated by Imperial personnel. (Which the Imperial personnel were trained to think of the citizens as nothing more than scum and treated as such. They were expendable assets of the Empire.)

I mean I hate to say it but the Empire was the Emperor, and I do mean the Empire was the Emperor. That is how Sith Empires are built.

You're also missing the context in which the movies were made: the US 'nation myth' and creation story of the desperate rebels fighting an unjust empire, and winning against all the odds....the reason us British are cast as evil in US movies so much isn't just because of our sexy accent you know ;-) Don't forget it was also made during the Cold War, another reason 'Empire' like systems are cast as the enemy. The propaganda war on both sides worked directly and indirectly in many ways, and Star Wars is a great example of this.

The 'Empire' depicted draws upon more than just Nazi Germany. Empires, despite making some under their control rich and 'developed', are inherently about exploitation and subjugation; it is often the paradox of imperial systems.

Also, give Tarkin a read (something all Imperial Armada players should do!) and it makes clear Sith/Empire motives were not necessarily the same.

Just got done with New Dawn and Tarkin is next on my list. Just don't want to pay $29.00 for it in hard back.

Now as for the British being casted as evil that is maybe how some might see it during the 1750's through the 1810's. But then again I don't think many of you Brits will run in King George's deffense, and still to this day are glad the Royalty signed over power to the Parliment to keep the people's best interests in mind.(That and they didn't want to end up like the French royal families.) But many of the actions of the British Empire in their colonies were not very good for the local people and I doubt many Brits are proud of those actions.(Much like how Americans are not proud of slavery and what we did the the Nations of the American natives. Those were are darkests times and glad we moved somewhat forward.)

Also I have never had an issue with you Brits and find those that hold another country as less than equal Jingoism. And yes, your ladies do have a sexy accent. (I can pick out a Londen accent in one sentence and the ladies love it when I do. I live in NW USA.)

I'm also waiting for these books to come out in paperback. In the meantime, I have plenty of books to occupy my time.

But could I make a case for all the civilization that Empires have brought? When/if I do, please have a throw-up bag ready.

Also didn't want to pay hardback prices after Armada orders, but managed to get a copy from the local library. I haven't got much time at the moment, so still reading it bit by bit, but can highly recommend it from the first half! How was New Dawn?

Historical narratives become embedded in all sorts of 'nation myths/truths' that must of us don't notice until they are pointed out. They also end up coalescing with all sorts of other contributing factors, so my point about US/British casting was actually only part of the process (but a relevant one for your post). Making a significant amount of the OT in the UK would also have been a factor :-)

Yeah, pretty much agree with your points about empire above. But, would just add that they are all so, so much more interestingly complicated!

I live in the West Country, so women mostly sound like farmers where I am ;-)

Now to elaborate a little.

The Emperor of course didn't want his citizens to believe they meant nothing but also wanted them to Fear the repercussions of not obeying. That is what the political information controllers did, they spun the News so anyone who might speak against the Empire were made to look like they were against the interest of the Empire which in turn meant its people. They turned the Holonets into a means to spread the cult of personality that was the Emperor.

Also the Empire Watched everyone they could over spy cameras everywhere in areas important to the Empire and there anyone who said stuff that was against the Empire's interest disappeared, forever. (Death or slave mines, which I guess is still death.) also the quality of life for the vast majority of citizens kept getting worse and worse, but the Emperor didn't do it all at once (much like a toad in water that you slowly bring to boil.) so the citizens didn't see out right how bad their lives got. And the constant news of how their lives are in constant danger and only the Empire can bring them security was feed to them daily.

As for those who served the military and government services they were trained over time to believe Everyone is expendable and those who caused even slight problems need to be dealt with harshly. Those that did not buy this philosophy never advance and tend to have no position of power. So you learned to play the game and believe or remain in a vulnerable position. They never have the public's interests in mind and if given orders they will kill whole populations without much remorse. (Or at least those who get into upper command don't, everyone else are just following orders they were taught is good for the Empire.)

Alderaan was not the act of genocide the Empire committed, it is just the one everyone knows from the movie. What do you think slave camps were, they were concentration camps were those deemed undesirable go to die. Ask the Wookies.

But this is maybe too long but I can go on with what happens with in the Empire but unfortunately I have not read all the EU books and don't know the obscure books were the Imperials were given a good nature. This was not how a Sith Empire runs.

Now was everyone who served the Empire Evil? No. Many were just serving what they were taught to be their way of life. But those individuals never get anywhere in a Sith Empire. (I could explain the difference between a regular Germany soldier and an SS but just mentioning them I think gets across the idea.)

I think most of the people talking about the Empire being good are talking about long after Endor when most of the higher ranking Imperials from Palpatine's era are dead and those lower ranking individuals you mentioned have taken over and done away with most of the worst parts of the Empire under Palpatine.

And yeah your points about the well meaning Imperials not rising far in the ranks are true IMO. Other then one character who IMO had very good reasons to view a return to an Old Republic system as a bad thing and was the first commanding admiral of the Imperial Starfleet the highest rank any of my Imperial characters reached during Palpatine's reign was command of a frigate though he got promoted to command of a Victory soon after Endor.

Well RogueC I hear what you're saying and in a way after Endor I don't see the Empire as the Empire becuase the Empire I knew was a Sith Empire. No Sith Lord no Sith Empire.

Also the story line where the Emperor coming back as a clone where Luke becomes a Sith like his father just to destroy the Emperor for good no longer exists. Now we won't find out hat happened for sure till after the release of Episode VII.

But after the Fall of the Sith Empire something had to take its place and there was a structure in place with Lots of Ships ready for action. But the people were ready for something different.

I almost want to write a small paper on the Galatic society of that time period after the next few movies and I read the next few books.

As a Sith I can tell you that our purpose has always been to rule the galaxy, and through our rule, bring peace, order, stability, and prosperity to all beings. The dark side itself motivates us to this goal. Through the dark side we learn the clearest truth, that the masses can not be counted on to govern themselves. When they try it invariably leads to corruption, vice, self-interest, and greed. And the leaders, so called, of such democracies are inevitably the first to give in to malfeasance. And in time, from such corrupt roots, the tree of democracy bears rotten fruit. That is why democracies always fail in the end.

Instead the galaxy needs the enlightened few to guide, sometimes with a firm hand, the rest to progress and prosperity. And made strong, perceptive, and capable by the dark side of the force, we Sith are the best equipped to provide that guidance.

Emperor Palatine and Lord Vader knew the truth of this and did not shy away from the task. They gave their entire beings to the dark side for the good of the entire galaxy.

We Sith do not forget their example, their sacrifice.

As a Sith I can tell you that our purpose has always been to rule the galaxy, and through our rule, bring peace, order, stability, and prosperity to all beings. The dark side itself motivates us to this goal. Through the dark side we learn the clearest truth, that the masses can not be counted on to govern themselves. When they try it invariably leads to corruption, vice, self-interest, and greed. And the leaders, so called, of such democracies are inevitably the first to give in to malfeasance. And in time, from such corrupt roots, the tree of democracy bears rotten fruit. That is why democracies always fail in the end.

Instead the galaxy needs the enlightened few to guide, sometimes with a firm hand, the rest to progress and prosperity. And made strong, perceptive, and capable by the dark side of the force, we Sith are the best equipped to provide that guidance.

Emperor Palatine and Lord Vader knew the truth of this and did not shy away from the task. They gave their entire beings to the dark side for the good of the entire galaxy.

We Sith do not forget their example, their sacrifice.

Wait, your a Sith? Wouldn't that make you competition to the Sith Lords?

I know I am not suppose to know these things but as a Clone War Vet I do remember hearing a Jedi Council member saying there can only be two, a master and an apprentice. I toured with Plo Kloon's Wolfpack for a short stint.

As a Sith I can tell you that our purpose has always been to rule the galaxy, and through our rule, bring peace, order, stability, and prosperity to all beings. The dark side itself motivates us to this goal. Through the dark side we learn the clearest truth, that the masses can not be counted on to govern themselves. When they try it invariably leads to corruption, vice, self-interest, and greed. And the leaders, so called, of such democracies are inevitably the first to give in to malfeasance. And in time, from such corrupt roots, the tree of democracy bears rotten fruit. That is why democracies always fail in the end.

Instead the galaxy needs the enlightened few to guide, sometimes with a firm hand, the rest to progress and prosperity. And made strong, perceptive, and capable by the dark side of the force, we Sith are the best equipped to provide that guidance.

Emperor Palatine and Lord Vader knew the truth of this and did not shy away from the task. They gave their entire beings to the dark side for the good of the entire galaxy.

We Sith do not forget their example, their sacrifice.

Wait, your a Sith? Wouldn't that make you competition to the Sith Lords?

I know I am not suppose to know these things but as a Clone War Vet I do remember hearing a Jedi Council member saying there can only be two, a master and an apprentice. I toured with Plo Kloon's Wolfpack for a short stint.

We've gone into franchising since the Battle of Endor.

That way each Sith gets a slice of the pie and his own staff to bully command. Really helps with our brand recognition. (shrug) It's a form of order.

I am getting multiples. . . of EVERYTHING!!!! I have 5 sets of each squadron pack, 2 ASF's, 1 more VSD for the cards (and having a 3rd model for HUGE fleet battles seems fun) same for the Neb-b and likely 2 CR90's so I can have a 4 ship fleet of that.