Their are a great many ideas floating around when it comes to Ordnance and how it should be or needs to be fixed. I personally like simple solutions to these kinds of things.

First i think the range restrictions should be lifted just make them max range 3. You want to assault missile or ion torp at R1 have a ball that is your option.

Second These weapons IRL have tracking systems so it is more than likely safe to assume these do as well. This is why you have to have the TL to fire them. However I think you should lose said TL after the shot has been made rather than before. Example you fire X torp you roll your dice and can then spend the TL if you need to or if you don't it goes away anyhow.

Third There should be a way to retrofit any ship if not taking the Secondary weapons. So a -1pt missile/Torpedo/bomb (this would help Tie bombers a lot) or be able to swap slots on certain or all ships. I am also pretty sure what ever had this upgrade would sell like cake at fat camp.

Any how those are my ideas like them hate them lets hear what you think.

I like the idea to apply a negative point cost to any un-used torp/missle slots. It would allow you to give a bomber a torpedo, AND end up with a negative 3 points - so that part has potential. Plus is you make it a universal card, then any ship COULD take it - which means an X-Wing, TIE Advanced, etc.

The problem though, is that you'd also run the risk of bringing a B-Wing down to 20 points, which woudl allow 5 B-Wings in a single list. That part might be broken.

My big problem with many solutions, are that people want to straight up change a game rule - like the range written on the card. I don't like erratta that changes printed rules. I'd rather a card do it. But the other problem is that any ordnance fix has to at least try to be universal. If it's going to help a bomber fire a torpedo, then it shoudl ALSO help an X-Wing. The downside of this, is that some very strong ships also have the ability to use torpedoes like B-Wings and Decimators. So any fix has to take in mind those ships as well. You have to find a way to help the bomber, without boosting a decimator too much. If it's a -1 pt for each missle, torp, or bomb, then a decimator could come in as low as 38 points. BTL Y-Wings with blaster turrets could be down to 20 points, etc also.

And while I do like the idea that you can spend the target lock on the attack - many would argue that if you made some kind of universal fix for that, then you'd leave the Homing MIssile overcosted. Instead consider something like this:

Modification: After you spend a target lock, you gain a focus and may change one of your blank die results to an EYE each tie you attack this turn.

This way, most of your standard missiles / torpedoes would be improved, and Homing Missile would still have a unique place, as you can keep it if your roll turns out perfect - or spend it if you need to.

I don't think the first or second ones are likely because they would require FFG to errata a whole slew of cards, and they've been reluctant to do that. They'd rather change a rule or add a new upgrade card than tell everyone every single copy of card they own is now worded differently. They've done it in some rare cases, but I don't think this qualifies.

Surely, a Chardaan refit-esque rule only makes the missiles and torps less attractive to take?

I do like the second rule: still requiring the Target Lock, but at least being able to spend it as well. Would make that into a Munitions Failsafe type of Modification: 'when a missile/torpedo requires you to spend a target lock to perform the attack, only remove the target lock after the attack. The target lock may be spend during the attack to re-roll dice as normal.' Or simply: ignore the 'spend the target lock'. Currently, most ordnance worth taking are exactly those in which those words do not appear.

Getting rid of the range restrictions sound dangerous, they're there for a reason. Proton rockets at range 3? Please no.

The acid test for an ordnance fix would be:

If I put 2 proton torps on a B-Wing for 8 points, will it be 12.5% better on average than a Heavy Laser Cannon for 7 points?

A negative point upgrade for unused ordnance slots just makes the HLC even more of a no-brainer as you're effectively reducing its cost by 2 points.

My store uses the following house rule on all Ordnance.

All ordnance(Missiles and Torps) required to spend a token when fired may use this discarded token once in their attack.

Simple and Effective. We love it. No cards to worry about or any other issues.

Getting rid of the range restrictions sound dangerous, they're there for a reason. Proton rockets at range 3? Please no.

Why is this such a bad thing?

It costs 6. It cannot fire without a TL. It also needs a focus to really shine. It's also limit to one shot. And considering that any new card which extends the range is going to likely have an increased point cost of it's own... I mean I just don't see it as a bad thing.

Getting rid of the range restrictions sound dangerous, they're there for a reason. Proton rockets at range 3? Please no.

Why is this such a bad thing?

It costs 6. It cannot fire without a TL. It also needs a focus to really shine. It's also limit to one shot. And considering that any new card which extends the range is going to likely have an increased point cost of it's own... I mean I just don't see it as a bad thing.

He means Proton Rockets from Rebel Aces , 3 points 2 dice attack(Potentially 3): Focus, it also doesn't even spend the focus. Your thinking of Adv. Torps which really shouldn't be range 3 either. The thing with Ordnance is it's really hard to fix based on all the ships that can take them as well as the amount we have. we can only really hope for future ships/munitions that make them useful, like Proton rockets on a wings. Or Nera with w.e type of torpedo as well as munitions fail safe and even Blpount . The point reduction could work if instead of lowering the cost of not taking munitions, if you just lowered the cost of taking them instead. So if you load up your Y wing with 2 Proton Torps. instead of costing 8 it could cost 4? Odds are that the y wing will only get 1 of those off and it probably won't be very efficient. The thing with ordnance is just making them more desirable than other things that ships can take (Bwing HLC example).

Edit *Fixed Attack dice for Proton Rocket*

Getting rid of the range restrictions sound dangerous, they're there for a reason. Proton rockets at range 3? Please no.

Why is this such a bad thing?

It costs 6. It cannot fire without a TL. It also needs a focus to really shine. It's also limit to one shot. And considering that any new card which extends the range is going to likely have an increased point cost of it's own... I mean I just don't see it as a bad thing.

I think you're confusing proton rockets with advanced proton torps Crabbok.

Prockets are the 3 pointers that you only need a focus to fire - and let you keep the focus.

I'd generally prefer to see the range restrictions stay as they are though - having different ordnance for different jobs and that suits different ships, adds flavour and a layer of strategy that you don't get if everything just shoots the same.

No-one complained when the HLC was r2-r3 only - and when the Outrider was released it gave that range restriction another dimension.

Short version: Range restrictions are a good thing

I sure did. Somebody hid my meds. I too, do not want Proton Rockets at Range 3, at least not without a significant cost.

Any actual ordnance fix will probably be tied to an epic ship and cost $100 msrp.

A big problem with ordnance is that you probably want to offset its cost by running it on a low-cost generic ship. But generics have lower pilot skill and move before high-PS pilots, which means they might not be in range to target lock (which many ordnance cards require).

So a fix might be generic pilot-only and allow you to perform a free target lock action at the beginning of the combat phase if your ship has an ordnance upgrade card on it. Such a fix would have to be a title or modification (depending on whether you want to fix a specific ship, like the TIE Bomber, or any ordnance-carrying ship) and probably cost 0 (since ordnance already is costly).

I seriously think Proton Torpedo and Concussion Missile won't be played until their costs are errata'd to 3, though. Other ordnance released since Wave 1 costs less and/or is more useful.

Oh, and Homing Missiles probably should be errata'd to a cost of 4.

A big problem with ordnance is that you probably want to offset its cost by running it on a low-cost generic ship. But generics have lower pilot skill and move before high-PS pilots, which means they might not be in range to target lock (which many ordnance cards require).

So a fix might be generic pilot-only and allow you to perform a free target lock action at the beginning of the combat phase if your ship has an ordnance upgrade card on it. Such a fix would have to be a title or modification (depending on whether you want to fix a specific ship, like the TIE Bomber, or any ordnance-carrying ship) and probably cost 0 (since ordnance already is costly).

I seriously think Proton Torpedo and Concussion Missile won't be played until their costs are errata'd to 3, though. Other ordnance released since Wave 1 costs less and/or is more useful.

Oh, and Homing Missiles probably should be errata'd to a cost of 4.

Thing is though, getting the target lock is only half the battle - you've then lost it to improve your shot - if you really want to make ordnance worthwhile you need to be able to keep those modifiers.

Eaglets111's house rule gets closer to the solution - and it's great for a house rule, but probably not the way FFG would approach it.

My solution is similar, but it has the added benefit of being able to "dumb-fire" ordnance, or action stack your shot.

Maybe a whole new action would help.

Something like this.

Equip this card to add the "Arm" action to your action bar

(not sure what slot it would fit into - maybe a generic title card or a mod slot)

The Arm Action.

When performing an Arm action the player places a red Arm token next to his ship.

This token may be spent in place of a target lock when using any secondary weapon with the Attack:Target Lock header.

Arm tokens are not removed at the end of a turn.

Negative point costs for empty ordnance slots? Thats the opposite of promoting ordnances, it makes them even more expensive when you have to remove the negative point card in order to add some torpedoes or missiles etc

Ideally I want to be able to fire Ordnance multiple times.... EVEN if they hit. It already has the cost of a Target lock to fire - so normal weapon fire will still be a consideration - because if I can fire a proton torp every turn, that means I have to TL every turn, and I am not likely going to have a focus to modify the roll. I also want the option to equip double of any torpedo / missile to get 1 extra attack die when firing that weapon.

IE bomber takes Assault Missile, Proton Rocket, and 2 Proton Torpedoes. She now has the option to go after a swarm with the assault missile... go for a range 1 shot with the proton rocket (Keeping focus), or going with a stronger proton torpedo salvo (1 extra die due to the double proton torpedo) for a single target at range. It woudl be expensive sure, and this is just an extreme example of what I'd like to see... but yeah that'd be awesome.

I think to do though though, you need a modification that is siomilar to munitions failsafe... but more expensive because it just lets you keep firing, hit or miss. Maybe 4 more points for infinite shots? You also want to equip multiple weapons in case you lose a secondary to an unfortunate crit.

Oh and any such modification would have to specify Torpedoes and Missiles - instead of "Secondary weapon", otherwise the Hot Shot blaster would turn into a permanent turret.

Ideally I want to be able to fire Ordnance multiple times.... EVEN if they hit. It already has the cost of a Target lock to fire - so normal weapon fire will still be a consideration - because if I can fire a proton torp every turn, that means I have to TL every turn, and I am not likely going to have a focus to modify the roll. I also want the option to equip double of any torpedo / missile to get 1 extra attack die when firing that weapon.

IE bomber takes Assault Missile, Proton Rocket, and 2 Proton Torpedoes. She now has the option to go after a swarm with the assault missile... go for a range 1 shot with the proton rocket (Keeping focus), or going with a stronger proton torpedo salvo (1 extra die due to the double proton torpedo) for a single target at range. It woudl be expensive sure, and this is just an extreme example of what I'd like to see... but yeah that'd be awesome.

I think to do though though, you need a modification that is siomilar to munitions failsafe... but more expensive because it just lets you keep firing, hit or miss. Maybe 4 more points for infinite shots? You also want to equip multiple weapons in case you lose a secondary to an unfortunate crit.

Oh and any such modification would have to specify Torpedoes and Missiles - instead of "Secondary weapon", otherwise the Hot Shot blaster would turn into a permanent turret.

I've considered this as well.

On the surface the idea of unlimited reloads seems so overpowered it's just silly

But when you compare the cost of 2 proton torps to a HLC which gives you 4 dice on every shot, the costs are pretty comparable.

So if the ability for unlimited reloads was limited to ships which had 2 missile or torp slots, and had them filled, then the price would be about right.

If it was worked into my proposal for a new Arm action it might look something like this:

Equip this upgrade card to add the "Arm" action to your action bar

The Arm Action.

When performing an Arm action the player places a red Arm token next to his ship.

This token may be spent in place of a target lock when using any secondary weapon with the Attack:Target Lock header.

If you have 2 or more face down upgrade cards with the Missile or Torpedo upgrade icon, you may spend 1 Arm token to turn one of them face up.

Arm tokens are not removed at the end of a turn.

I would like a simple global fix, no cards. I.e. for every 50 points (predetermined army size) you get 1 free ordinance point. So a two point discount at 100 point games for everyone..or you can tweak those numbers. Another similar idea would be to make it faction specific, like empire gets 2 points ordinance rebeles get 1 ordinance and 1 point ship upgrade. However you mix it you could build in a slight, balanced discount. Similar to infinity for those who play

Their are a great many ideas floating around when it comes to Ordnance and how it should be or needs to be fixed. I personally like simple solutions to these kinds of things.

First i think the range restrictions should be lifted just make them max range 3. You want to assault missile or ion torp at R1 have a ball that is your option.

Second These weapons IRL have tracking systems so it is more than likely safe to assume these do as well. This is why you have to have the TL to fire them. However I think you should lose said TL after the shot has been made rather than before. Example you fire X torp you roll your dice and can then spend the TL if you need to or if you don't it goes away anyhow.

Third There should be a way to retrofit any ship if not taking the Secondary weapons. So a -1pt missile/Torpedo/bomb (this would help Tie bombers a lot) or be able to swap slots on certain or all ships. I am also pretty sure what ever had this upgrade would sell like cake at fat camp.

Any how those are my ideas like them hate them lets hear what you think.

You have to take a look at how all these suggestions affect the entire game. So lets look at the outcome.

1. The range is pretty much hard printed in the game. That is for two reasons. 1 to determine bonuses for primary weapons and which secondary weapon can be used. and two in order to determine firing arc. Even the epic range 4 and 5 has a firing arc. Just because something is beyond the end of a range ruler doesn't automatically make it in arc. In a matter of fact it is the opposite. If it is out of range then it is out of arc. Missiles on falcons can only fire when inside an arc. Removing the range restriction is like letting it shoot out of arc when the missile is beyond range 3. The falcon does not need help in that department.
2. That has been suggested before and it does address an issue with those secondary weapons. However there are a few weapons that do not require you to spend a token. Also with that rule how would it effect proton rockets which do not require a TL. The rules would have to be rewritten and the game has been too far in for something like that to happen. They would have to release a second edition and it is too soon.
3. That idea would backfire and do the opposite. How many A-wings do you see running missiles? After Rebel aces no competitive list take them. Not even proton rockets. That refit essentially raised the point cost of all missiles by 2 for A-wings. One of the problem is point expenditure for secondary weapons that only attack once. In order to fix those weapons you need to find ways of reducing expenditure for using them, not make it more efficient to leave those weapons out of the game.

I had made a thread about secondary weapons and upgrade fixes and how they affect the game. You might want to take a look on it here and read at least the first half. You can stop before the upgrade suggestions. However keep in mind anything that may seem simple as a rule change can quickly become quite complex when you do your research and experimentation. You will find results you were not intending.

Just because something is beyond the end of a range ruler doesn't automatically make it in arc. In a matter of fact it is the opposite. If it is out of range then it is out of arc.

I was under the impression that the opposite was the case - just because something is beyond range 3 (or 5 in the case of huge ships) does not automatically make it out of arc.

As far as the rules are concerned a ship is considered as in arc if it falls within the angle of the printed firing arc - range is not mentioned as a criteria for deciding arc

What about a modification,

MODIFICATION

Expanded Ordinance Bays

You may discard this card in place of a spent [missile] or [torpedo] card

Cost: 2

What about a modification,

MODIFICATION

Expanded Ordinance Bays

You may discard this card in place of a spent [missile] or [torpedo] card

Cost: 2

Just adds to the cost of an already costly upgrade.

Doesn't address the fundamental problems with the ordnance mechanic.

Think about it this way - how could you make 2 proton torpedoes for 8 points more attractive on a B-Wing than a Heavy Laser Cannon for 7 points.

Solve that and you've fixed ordnance.

I've just been adding the attack value of the ordnance to my ships base attack value. Im sure there are all kinds of exploits but for casual play it's been working for me. 7-8 dice advanced protons are powearful and devastating like I feel getting hit with something like that should be. Some times you can survive or evade them but direct hits means sure doom, and given it requires a tl to fire, simulates the high chance of being hit(large dice pool), I feel seems appropriate. Not sure how many ships could survive a pair of missiles or torpedoes direct hit.

Not sure if this came across correct, it's late and I'm tired Haha.

What about a modification,

MODIFICATION

Expanded Ordinance Bays

You may discard this card in place of a spent [missile] or [torpedo] card

Cost: 2

Just adds to the cost of an already costly upgrade.

Doesn't address the fundamental problems with the ordnance mechanic.

Think about it this way - how could you make 2 proton torpedoes for 8 points more attractive on a B-Wing than a Heavy Laser Cannon for 7 points.

Solve that and you've fixed ordnance.

Its not making it more costly, it effectively halves the ordinance and adds one point as you drop the mod on your first shot and the actual ordinance on shot 2. So if you look at my mod, on a b wing its effectively 3 protons for v a hlc on a b- wing

What about a modification,

MODIFICATION

Expanded Ordinance Bays

You may discard this card in place of a spent [missile] or [torpedo] card

Cost: 2

Just adds to the cost of an already costly upgrade.

Doesn't address the fundamental problems with the ordnance mechanic.

Think about it this way - how could you make 2 proton torpedoes for 8 points more attractive on a B-Wing than a Heavy Laser Cannon for 7 points.

Solve that and you've fixed ordnance.

Its not making it more costly, it effectively halves the ordinance and adds one point as you drop the mod on your first shot and the actual ordinance on shot 2. So if you look at my mod, on a b wing its effectively 3 protons for v a hlc on a b- wing

It adds to the cost because the mechanic for actually firing and dealing damage with ordnance comes at an unacceptable penalty.

If the usual low PS missile boat type ships you would want to put ordnance on struggle to get just one shot off - or deal much damage with that one shot if they do manage to shoot it - which is usually the case - Then charging them an extra 2 points for another shot they are unlikely to be able to take is of no use at all.

Think about it this way:

You buy a powertool from Homebase - take it home and find it's not up to the job - it's not faulty - it's just not very good at doing what it's supposed to do.

You go back to Homebase and they offer to give you an additional powertool - exactly the same - for a mere 50% more

would you take that deal?