Actually, using the wrong one deprives 50% of the population of their very humanity.

what the actual subcutaneous nictating ****, is this seriously a thing that anyone outside of third-wavers believes?

Insofar as using the word "it" does the same thing. Plus, I'm way not third-wave at all. I don't even consider myself a feminist for that matter.

Actually, using the wrong one deprives 50% of the population of their very humanity.

what the actual subcutaneous nictating ****, is this seriously a thing that anyone outside of third-wavers believes?

Insofar as using the word "it" does the same thing. Plus, I'm way not third-wave at all. I don't even consider myself a feminist for that matter.

personally I just think of pronouns as pronouns, regardless of which letter combo they're using

not insinuating that you are, just that's literally the other other place I've seen statements like that and it's very gut-reaction at this stage

I was only intending to make a point about grammar, not politics. I had no intention of offending.

Actually, using the wrong one deprives 50% of the population of their very humanity.

what the actual subcutaneous nictating ****, is this seriously a thing that anyone outside of third-wavers believes?

Insofar as using the word "it" does the same thing. Plus, I'm way not third-wave at all. I don't even consider myself a feminist for that matter.

personally I just think of pronouns as pronouns, regardless of which letter combo they're using

not insinuating that you are, just that's literally the other other place I've seen statements like that and it's very gut-reaction at this stage

That's all well and good, but whatever else you might think or say, there's no doubt that the "universal he" is not universal, and that it's exclusionary. I quite liked WonderWAAAGH's post that we should use all means at our disposal to make others feel welcome. That wasn't done in this case. That's a failing. It's not a huge failing, it's not the end of the world, the sky isn't falling, but to deny that it is a failing is, again, quite exclusionary.

I was only intending to make a point about grammar, not politics. I had no intention of offending.

It's quite all right. I wasn't offended. I'm afraid I'm just this strident all the time.

I was only intending to make a point about grammar, not politics. I had no intention of offending.

Luckily, I think we've all managed to move on already.

To maneuver back to the main point: I don't think it matters which pronoun we use for ambiguous characters, just as long as we do it consistently and acknowledge that it's merely a placeholder, and that no offense is intended. In the case of our named Phantom pilots, I think it's more than a little obvious that FFG is remaining intentionally vague on the subject. They're Phantom pilots, they're supposed to be mysterious! They can be anything you want them to be, but let's not pretend that we have a definitive answer at this point. I've been referring to them as transgender, to try and take some of the sting out of this prickly situation.

Has anyone been paying attention to WotC recently? Last season they debuted Ashiok, a deliberately androgynous figure who they were forced to reference using gendered pronouns. As of the past few months we've been graced with Alesha, Magic's first transgender character.

As of the past few months we've been graced with Alesha, Magic's first transgender character.

Okay, I'm curious. Was this a magical transmutation, or a surgery performed by some sort of Phyrexian machine?

As of the past few months we've been graced with Alesha, Magic's first transgender character.

Okay, I'm curious. Was this a magical transmutation, or a surgery performed by some sort of Phyrexian machine?

Gender and sex aren't the same thing.

As of the past few months we've been graced with Alesha, Magic's first transgender character.

Okay, I'm curious. Was this a magical transmutation, or a surgery performed by some sort of Phyrexian machine?

Gender and sex aren't the same thing.

elephant is not a gender tho

I'm just curious why you phonetically spelled out Wes Janson in the pronounciation column. Was his name difficult to sound out?

Ha! No, not at all. I included pronunciations only if they were included in a characters profile. I expected a lot more. I found the fact that Wes Janson had a pronunciation where others didn't rather humorous & so added it more in jest than anything. I assume that many of the characters have been sourced from Book/Comics & so have never had their name spoken until now, thus have no pronunciation?

I will endeavor to add Homeworlds at some point (probably next weekend the way this week is travelling). I did begin to add Characters origin when I started, but it became a little overly convoluted & I figured wasn't adding much when it was available from the linked article.

Surprisingly this thread hasn't gotten locked, so I commend all the debaters on there civility.

However Nightshrike, upon looking into Guri's history, Guri isn't exactly the toy you think she (it??) is (quoted from Wookiee):

Programmed to protect Xizor at all costs, Guri was devoted to him in all matters of his life—she was even known to hold his clothes while he spent time with a mistress. As Xizor's most trusted advisor Guri was in the unique position of being able to speak her mind, saying things that no other would dare say to the Dark Prince and he valued her counsel when it was offered. Even so, Guri was not one to speak unnecessarily and would generally not offer an opinion unless it was requested.

IMO an Ion Pulse Missile should instakill Guri. IG-88's designers were a little more function focused and went for ion shielding over synthskin.

Surprisingly this thread hasn't gotten locked, so I commend all the debaters on there civility.

However Nightshrike, upon looking into Guri's history, Guri isn't exactly the toy you think she (it??) is (quoted from Wookiee):

Programmed to protect Xizor at all costs, Guri was devoted to him in all matters of his life—she was even known to hold his clothes while he spent time with a mistress. As Xizor's most trusted advisor Guri was in the unique position of being able to speak her mind, saying things that no other would dare say to the Dark Prince and he valued her counsel when it was offered. Even so, Guri was not one to speak unnecessarily and would generally not offer an opinion unless it was requested.

Oh so she also served as an attractive clothing rack while he had sex with other beautiful women - how forward thinking!

Time for a very neutral statement regarding the gender of Whisper and Echo. This has probably already been said before but Whisper and Echo are top secret code names for a top secret highly advanced fighter. There have been many Whispers and Echos of either gender perhaps, The Imperial Navy takes the best for the phantom regardless of gender. Perhaps the male (or female) Whisper and Echo were killed and the opposite gender brought in to replace him/her. Everybody wins with this explanation. Hooray I am Switzerland give me all your money and Swiss cheese.

Whisper and Echo are top secret code names for a top secret highly advanced fighter

This is kinda along the lines of where my thinking was headed. Part of the psychology of using a such a stealth fighter could be perpetuating the myth that it never dies. Even if "Whisper" is destroyed, it rises again & the fear associated with it's name and reputation becomes weapons in themselves. If so, the reference of 'She' could possibly more part of the Naval tradition of referring to Ships in the Feminine.

Probably will never really know either way & I will not lose any sleep over not knowing, but I do like that explanation.

Echo and Whisper are FFG Originals.

And have never beyond the FFG fans been assigned any gender. I think the Phantom pilots in the video game were males but didn't have either call sign 'Whisper' or 'Echo'.

EV-9D9 was female

Who the hell made that decision? That droid doesn't look, sound, act, speak or indicate female in any way.

And it doesn't look,act, speak, or indicate being MALE in any way either. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the voice actor for that part was portrayed by a female, though it is hard to tell with all the modulation.

They don't actually ever identify players as males. "He" also functions as a gender neutral pronoun where the sex of the subject is unknown.

From my experience it depend on who your english professor was. I've had a professor who insisted that "he" was sufficient when gender was unknown. I've had multiple professors insist that "he" was absolutely NOT sufficient - and that "he or she" was entirely more appropriate. I generally prefer to use "he or she" even if it adds extra words.

Echo is identified as female, in the same paragraph where FFG identifies players as male...

Echo is also identified as male in 3 different preview articles. Echo is called He by the staff writers for FFG as well as the guest writers. Echo is called She in the FAQ.

So since we have Echo being referred to as both, we have three options.

We accept the most recent version as being correct, so Echo is a woman meaning perhaps FFG changed their mind. We accept the highest count of terms, making Echo a he, making the FAQ entry a typo. Or we accept we don't know for sure either way until FFG directly addresses it.

Frankly I don't care what we do, but I am inclined to go with the first possibility, and call Echo she.

However my question was about Whisper not Echo, and to my knowledge, Whisper has never been referred to with anything that would state gender.

[deleted]

Oops, I'll get back later on this....

There is a problem with the linked list. I believe Darth Vader is technically more machine now than man. :-)

Okay, a little bit Off-Topic:

Echo is the code for Caroline Farrell.

At least in Joss Whedons series Dollhouse ;-) And I'm sure that Topher could program her into a very able Phantom Pilot ;-)

To return to a previous part of the conversation:

Except in the quoted view of things, the Empire doesn't make any efforts to sift out those likely to defect from those unlikely to defect. You look at those Middle Eastern countries and I promise you they have hard core secret police who are vetting every single academy applicant, particularly for flying fighter jets (which is what the TIE fighter is the equivalent of). You're not going to give a very expensive jet to someone whose loyalty is in question. You're also not going to sink all that money in training a pilot, which is even more expensive, if there is even a whiff of disloyalty about them.

That's why defections (which did occur in the cold war) were so rare and so high profile. Pilots are the only soldiers who can, quite easily, switch sides in a war, and governments are well aware of this. The Empire should be too.

If you think that the Empire doesn't keep an eye out for sedition, you have clearly never heard of the ISB.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Security_Bureau

As far as defection, you're drawing some pretty broad parallels that don't hold up to scrutiny. On the planet earth, fighter jets are capable of taking you deep into enemy territory before anyone knows you're gone, especially if you're dispatched on a routine patrol. In a Galaxy Far Far Away, TIE fighters are 'short range fighters'. No hyperdrive, no dedicated life-support. Trying to defect from the Imperial garrison in any Imperial star system is like trying to cross the Atlantic in a rowboat with a Snickers bar and a can of Mountain Dew.

But fighter pilots were officers, they could just resign then defect. They couldn't take their fighters with them though.

Since there's ambiguity to Echo's gender you may as well make her a woman and boost the count of female pilots in the game. Lord knows there's plenty of dudes already.

Since there's ambiguity to Echo's gender you may as well make her a woman and boost the count of female pilots in the game. Lord knows there's plenty of dudes already.

But then you take away from the count of mysterious figures. Don't they also deserve representation?

Since there's ambiguity to Echo's gender you may as well make her a woman and boost the count of female pilots in the game. Lord knows there's plenty of dudes already.

But then you take away from the count of mysterious figures. Don't they also deserve representation?

"The Count of Mysterious Figures" sounds like a noble title from Transylvania, or a villain in a B-horror flick. I would totally watch that.