Scenario Dash Rendar with HLC but without the Outrider title has declared an attack on a ship that the closest point is at range two outside of arc but the closest part of the ships base that is inside the arc is at range 3. Player Dash wants to use HLC at range 3 however player Defender says that closest to closest point is out of arc at range 2.

So would defender be at Range 2 outside of arc or can Defender be declared Range 3 inside of Arc?

I think that in this case Player Dash has the right to select primary weapon or secondary weapon attack. Since the secondary weapon cannot shoot outside of arc defender is at range 3 inside firing arc. If Dash declared primary weapon then defender would be declared at range 2 but outside of firing arc (allowing autothrusters to trigger).

Some confusion might be going over a similar scenario where say Han with Tactician was measuring range to defender with the closest to closest point being out of arc at range 1 but the closest point inside arc is at range 2. Player Han wants to declare range 2 in arc to trigger tactician but since this is with the same weapon that can shoot outside of arc I would argue that a player cannot downgrade the range with the same weapon if it were able to attack (just like having outrider+HLC).

However on the same note as the first scenario if Player Han had a concussion missile Player Han may declare range 2 in arc attack with concussion missiles which would trigger tactician as missiles have to be in arc for the attack.

Any other perspectives or debates on these scenarios?

Dash is entitled to use his HLC, in which case he must fire inside his firing arc. In that case you would measure closest point to closest point inside arc and fire the HLC at range 3.

If Dash were to use his Primaries at range 2, autothrusters would not fire, as he is now firing at range 2, however some part of the defenders base is in his firing arc (range for this is not measured in this case)

The defender cannot force the choice of weapon just because of the placement of his ship overlapping the range bands and/or arc. The attacker still gets to choose his weapon.

Dash is entitled to use his HLC, in which case he must fire inside his firing arc. In that case you would measure closest point to closest point inside arc and fire the HLC at range 3.

If Dash were to use his Primaries at range 2, autothrusters would not fire, as he is now firing at range 2, however some part of the defenders base is in his firing arc (range for this is not measured in this case)

But what if the range 2 part was out of arc? I think autothrusters would trigger

no, because although the closest point is out of arc, the ship is considered in arc if any point is in arc.

no, because although the closest point is out of arc, the ship is considered in arc if any point is in arc.

I think he meant if Dash were to use HLC, Autothrusters would trigger since the defender would be at range 3.

no, because although the closest point is out of arc, the ship is considered in arc if any point is in arc.

I think he meant if Dash were to use HLC, Autothrusters would trigger since the defender would be at range 3.

Yes, if Dash fired Autothrusters the attack would be at Range 3.

However what he asked (and what I responded to) was firing primary weapons out of arc at range 2, with some part of the base being in arc at range 3.

In this case the shot is a range 2 shot with the ship being inside the attackers firing arc, so autothrusters wouldn't trigger, even though closest to closest was out of arc, and even though the part in arc is range 3.

I'm thinking range is always measured at the shortest range an attack could be made. If there is a ship within R2 of the YT-2400 the ship is at R2 even if the part that is "in arc" is at R3 and being shot at with a HLC. I believe it would count at a R2 shot.

Yes it is measured at the shortest range that the attack could be made. In the case of a HLC (remember he has specifically stated no outrider, so no HLC turret), it can only fire in arc, so it is the closest range in arc, which in the case he is describing, is range 3.

no, because although the closest point is out of arc, the ship is considered in arc if any point is in arc.

I think he meant if Dash were to use HLC, Autothrusters would trigger since the defender would be at range 3.

Yes, if Dash fired Autothrusters the attack would be at Range 3.

However what he asked (and what I responded to) was firing primary weapons out of arc at range 2, with some part of the base being in arc at range 3.

In this case the shot is a range 2 shot with the ship being inside the attackers firing arc, so autothrusters wouldn't trigger, even though closest to closest was out of arc, and even though the part in arc is range 3.

Ok I'm a bit confused. How do you measure range. I thought you measure range within the firing arc (if there is one) and at the point it contacts the defender THAT determines the "Range".

So in your example what I'm reading is that if you choose the primary weapon on the defender who falls within range 3 in arc, but range 2 out of arc you are saying that it is a range 2 shot?

How does primary vs. secondary weapon checking for range differ?

Ok I'm a bit confused. How do you measure range. I thought you measure range within the firing arc (if there is one) and at the point it contacts the defender THAT determines the "Range".

So in your example what I'm reading is that if you choose the primary weapon on the defender who falls within range 3 in arc, but range 2 out of arc you are saying that it is a range 2 shot?

How does primary vs. secondary weapon checking for range differ?

The difference is not from Primary vs Secondary. The difference is between weapons that fire inside your firing arc and "turret" weapons that fire outside your firing arc.

For a "normal" weapon:

• Everything is measured within the firing arc.
• Use the shortest valid (within the firing arc) line between the attacker and the defender for Range, Obstacles and In/Out of Arc checks.

For a "turret" weapon that can fire outside your firing arc (all current Turret upgrades and Decimator+YTs primary weapons):

• For In/Out of Arc checks : verify if any part of the defender is within the attackers firing arc.
• For Range and Obstacles, use the shortest line between the attacker and defender.

You have to measure the two seperately and combine the results when using a ship that can fire out of its primary arc.

Range (closest point to closest point) = 2

In Arc (Yes/No) = Yes

Range 2 shot in arc.

It bakes the brain a little but it is what happens with those turreted pancakes and their out of arc firing possibilities.

THIS IS FOR PRIMARY WEAPONS ONLY, FOR SECONDARY> SEE BELOW

The HLC is limited to the firind arc only. You would be a range 3 shot in arc, measured closest point to closest point in arc because you are using a secondary weapon without the Outrider title. You can't target outside of your firing arc with the HLC; it follows all normal rulse for an in arc shot just like every other ship.

Ok I'm a bit confused. How do you measure range. I thought you measure range within the firing arc (if there is one) and at the point it contacts the defender THAT determines the "Range".

So in your example what I'm reading is that if you choose the primary weapon on the defender who falls within range 3 in arc, but range 2 out of arc you are saying that it is a range 2 shot?

How does primary vs. secondary weapon checking for range differ?

The difference is not from Primary vs Secondary. The difference is between weapons that fire inside your firing arc and "turret" weapons that fire outside your firing arc.

For a "normal" weapon:

• Everything is measured within the firing arc.
• Use the shortest valid (within the firing arc) line between the attacker and the defender for Range, Obstacles and In/Out of Arc checks.

For a "turret" weapon that can fire outside your firing arc (all current Turret upgrades and Decimator+YTs primary weapons):

• For In/Out of Arc checks : verify if any part of the defender is within the attackers firing arc.
• For Range and Obstacles, use the shortest line between the attacker and defender.

Technically, the In/Out of Arc check is always the same regardless of what type of weapon; Is any part of the target inside your printed arc(s)? It's range that varies with whether the weapon has the ability to fire outside arc or not, but you've pretty much covered it.

Here's a visual representation:

Here's a visual representation:

I disagree. The defender in the second example isn't In Arc at Range 2. It's In Arc at Range 3, and Out of Arc at Range 2.

Autothrusters trigger off of either of the above statements, and only don't trigger if the defender is, in fact, In Arc at Range 2.

Here's a visual representation:

I disagree. The defender in the second example isn't In Arc at Range 2. It's In Arc at Range 3, and Out of Arc at Range 2.

No. The primary attack is indeed inside the firing arc and at range 2.

Here's a visual representation:

I disagree. The defender in the second example isn't In Arc at Range 2. It's In Arc at Range 3, and Out of Arc at Range 2.

No. The primary attack is indeed inside the firing arc and at range 2.

It is inside the firing arc. It is at range 2. But it cannot be both with the same shot.

The two things that it technically are do not overlap, and the overlap is what is necessary for the Autothrusters not to trigger.

Here's a visual representation:

I disagree. The defender in the second example isn't In Arc at Range 2. It's In Arc at Range 3, and Out of Arc at Range 2.

No. The primary attack is indeed inside the firing arc and at range 2.

It is inside the firing arc. It is at range 2. But it cannot be both with the same shot.

It is anyway.

For turret weapons range measurement and firing arc checks are independent.

Here's a visual representation:

I disagree. The defender in the second example isn't In Arc at Range 2. It's In Arc at Range 3, and Out of Arc at Range 2.

No. The primary attack is indeed inside the firing arc and at range 2.

It is inside the firing arc. It is at range 2. But it cannot be both with the same shot.

It is anyway.

For turret weapons range measurement and firing arc checks are independent.

I'm 99% sure this was addressed by one of the devs in an e-mail.

Someone will likely link to it soon...

Edit: In the mean time:

1. You're considered inside a ship's firing arc if any part of your ship is inside it's firing arc.
2. When firing with a turret, measure from closest point to closest point.

And I went and found the response from Frank...

Originally (I think) posted here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121537-turrets-outmaneuver-and-tactician/?p=1255616

Quoted here for simplicity...

Hello Sergovan,

In response to your rules question:
Rule Question:
How does a YT-1300, with a ship in arc at range 2 and out of arc at range 1 (with closest point to closest point being at range 1) resolve Tactician and Outmaneuver.

Please see thread "Turrets, Outmaneuver, and Tactician".

The issue arrises from Tactician itself since the initial clause is a bit ambiguous (“After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2”). It is unclear whether the attack needed to be inside of your firing arc, whether the attack needed to be at Range 2, simply the ship attacked needs to be both at Range 2 and inside your firing arc, or something else entirely. The intention is that the attack performed was a not at Range 1 or Range 3 but explicitly Range 2 and that that ship was inside of the attacker’s firing arc.

Therefore, to answer your question: if a YT-1300 equipped with Tactician and Outmaneuver is attacks an enemy ship at Range 2 (when measured inside of the firing arc) and at Range 1 (when measured closest point to closest point, not inside the firing arc), Tactician would not trigger and Outmaneuver could trigger (so long as the YT-1300 is outside of the defender’s firing arc).

You may treat Tactician as though it said “After you perform an attack against an enemy ship at Range 2, if that ship was inside your firing arc, it receives 1 stress token."

This is reverting my previous reasoning for my answer to Tactician although keeps mostly the same resolution. In fact, it removes an artifact from the previous ruling. This means that for a YT-1300 equipped with Tactician and Outmaneuver that is attacking a ship that is at Range 2 and straddling the firing arc, Tactician would still trigger (even if the closest point to closest point is drawn outside of the firing arc) and Outmaneuver could still trigger. With the previous ruling, it actually “punished” turret primary weapon ships for having this setup since another ship in the exact same situation would have been able to use both abilities.

Thanks for asking,

Frank Brooks
Associate Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

This is where the answer is made unambiguous:

Therefore, to answer your question: if a YT-1300 equipped with Tactician and Outmaneuver is attacks an enemy ship at Range 2 (when measured inside of the firing arc) and at Range 1 (when measured closest point to closest point, not inside the firing arc), Tactician would not trigger and Outmaneuver could trigger (so long as the YT-1300 is outside of the defender’s firing arc).

Here's the situation he's describing:

By Frank's ruling, the Defender is considered in arc (Outmaneuver triggers), and at range 1 (Tactician doesn't trigger).

For turreted ships, the in-arc and range checks are independent from one another. You check range (closest point to closest point) and then answer yes/no to if the defender is in arc then response based on what your answers are.

Klutz did a great job of visualizing the issue and has it correct.

Here's a visual representation:

I disagree. The defender in the second example isn't In Arc at Range 2. It's In Arc at Range 3, and Out of Arc at Range 2.

Autothrusters trigger off of either of the above statements, and only don't trigger if the defender is, in fact, In Arc at Range 2.

No, he's right.

Autothrusters requires 1 of 2 conditions to trigger.

Is it a range 3 attack? No, it is a range 2 atack.

Is the defender outside the attackers firing arc? No, the defender is partially inside the attackers firing arc.

Since neither condition is met, autothrusters does not fire.

Okay so range is closest to closest point that a weapon can fire.

So if weapon is not turreted then closest point range and arc range is the same.

If it is turreted then the closest point be inside arc or not.

In Arc is determined if any part of the base is in arc.

So In Arc and Range does not effect each other unless the weapon itself is bound by that firing arc.

Okay so range is closest to closest point that a weapon can fire.

So if weapon is not turreted then closest point range and arc range is the same.

If it is turreted then the closest point be inside arc or not.

In Arc is determined if any part of the base is in arc.

So In Arc and Range does not effect each other unless the weapon itself is bound by that firing arc.

That's correct.

Frank's response is consistent with the rules, but non-intuitive.

A visual representation (like Klutz excellently did) in the FAQ would help a lot.