Funny as I nearly completely depleted an opponents damage deck with my dash/corran list vs 4 ties & a deci.

So much overkill happened that at the end he had 3 damage cards left in his deck. Alot of one hull ties eating 4 damage for the finisher.

What would've happened if he had no more damaged cards & a ship left?

So for example if I killed all ties this way that's 24 damage cards!

The deci could have 3 hull left with no more cards to draw.

Does the deci become unkillable? :-)

Shuffle the discarded cards...

Saboteur

Greedo

Rexler

It doesn't matter if you're not able to see, predict or make use of the distribution of damage cards. It is simply a fact that there's a difference in their distribution depending on whether you are playing by the rules or not.

the four face down damage cards you just drew from the deck, when you only took one damage, were all Direct Hit cards

Are you absolutely sure you don't want them taken from the pack?

Doesn't this work the other way as well? those 4 cards are maybe not direct hit cards, thus taking them out increases the density of direct hits. So.. is there really an advantage gained either way if we don't know what they are?

The advantage gained is "everyone is doing it the same way, the way the rules say."

Fel's Wrath.

Fel's Wrath!

FEL'S WRATH.

FEL'S ******* WRATH!!!!!

Saboteur

Greedo

Rexler

These are some good examples. Usually when I see this argument it's because the person doesn't understand probabilities.

Let's say you have a TIE fighter suffer 4 crits and you choose to draw all 4 cards. If all 4 turn out to be Direct Hits, your chances of drawing more goes from 21% to 10%. Let's say you decided to not draw the extra crit card. Now your chances of a Direct Hit go from 21% to 13%.

Now you might be thinking that it doesn't matter because you don't know what that 4th card is until you draw it and look at it. Well, there is a distribution that defines the probability of each card, and even if you cannot observe it, it still exists. That is, even if you don't know what the probability of a Direct Hit is, it still has a defined probability.

The reason why the distribution changes is what is known as sampling without replacement. That is, by drawing the card and not returning it to the damage deck, you are altering the distribution of future cardbdraws. Here's a link that explains it some: https://www.ma.utexas.edu/users/parker/sampling/repl.htm

By not drawing the card, you are changing the distribution. Similarly, by drawing the card, you are changing the distribution. Thus, the only correct response is to draw the card because of other game effects that can flip drawn cards.

So we've got:

Because it's the rules.

Because it affects the distribution.

Because there are game effects that depend on properly dealing them.

Convinced yet?

And the corollary to it being part of the rules: the discarded cards are face up in the discard pile, so the information about remaining crits is actually supposed to be open information for both you and your opponent, even if you don't feel like trying to take advantage of it.

I don't think anyone would argue that drawing all the face up cards makes no difference, since that gives you additional information about what's left in the damage deck.

However, if a TIE Fighter with a single hull point left takes 5 hits from a range 1 Phantom, dealing out the 5 facedown damage cards doesn't reveal any new information and makes no statistical difference on the outcome of the next damage cards.

That is, until I read about that rule where you turn all the damage cards faceup when a ship dies...

Has anyone ever applied that rule??

Has anyone ever applied that rule??

I do. I will always remind my opponent of the rule. if they want to flip them face up great. But if they have a problem with it they might have a illegal deck.

It's not quite the same thing, but I don't like leaving a Direct Hit faceup to represent two damage. I'd rather flip it over, and deal a second facedown damage. I know the rules don't allow this, but I think it's superior,more intuitive, and a more easily-read game-state indicator.

It's not quite the same thing, but I don't like leaving a Direct Hit faceup to represent two damage. I'd rather flip it over, and deal a second facedown damage. I know the rules don't allow this, but I think it's superior,more intuitive, and a more easily-read game-state indicator.

That doesn't play nice with any of the cards that have you flip damage cards you already have faceup though. Or cards like R5 Astromech that trigger off faceup damage cards with the ship trait.

It's not quite the same thing, but I don't like leaving a Direct Hit faceup to represent two damage. I'd rather flip it over, and deal a second facedown damage. I know the rules don't allow this, but I think it's superior,more intuitive, and a more easily-read game-state indicator.

That doesn't play nice with any of the cards that have you flip damage cards you already have faceup though. Or cards like R5 Astromech that trigger off faceup damage cards with the ship trait.

That's a really good point, and I'd never thought of it.

My position has completely changed!

So we've got:

Because it's the rules.

Because it affects the distribution.

Because there are game effects that depend on properly dealing them.

Convinced yet?

Because it's the rules.

It's understood it's the rules - but why is the rule there? Is it more than just to appease the voodoo believers?

Because it affects the distribution.

If the cards remain unknown, then the distribution is just as unknown. When the dead ship is put away and the little pile of cards is placed face-up next to the undrawn deck, do people actually take notice of what's in that little pile, and calculate in their minds what's left? If you're that level of Rain Man, then as far as I'm concerned you're welcome to whatever advantage it gives you. If so, please let me know, I'll be happy to comply. Otherwise, I'd prefer just to get on with the relevant aspects of play.

Because there are game effects that depend on properly dealing them.

Which game effects are affected by this? We're talking about a dead ship aren't we? Do we have game effects that bring ships back to life?

• It doesn't matter for Fel's Wrath, and nobody plays Fel's Wrath anyway.
• It doesn't matter for Saboteur, because Saboteur only applies to ships that are still among the living; same goes for Greedo.
• Why would Rexlar want to spend a focus to flip up a card on a dead ship? The ship is dead and ain't gonna get that much deader by having an extra critical effect.

So we've got:

Because it's the rules.

Because it affects the distribution.

Because there are game effects that depend on properly dealing them.

Convinced yet?

Because it's the rules.

It's understood it's the rules - but why is the rule there? Is it more than just to appease the voodoo believers?

Because it affects the distribution.

If the cards remain unknown, then the distribution is just as unknown. When the dead ship is put away and the little pile of cards is placed face-up next to the undrawn deck, do people actually take notice of what's in that little pile, and calculate in their minds what's left? If you're that level of Rain Man, then as far as I'm concerned you're welcome to whatever advantage it gives you. If so, please let me know, I'll be happy to comply. Otherwise, I'd prefer just to get on with the relevant aspects of play.

Because there are game effects that depend on properly dealing them.

Which game effects are affected by this? We're talking about a dead ship aren't we? Do we have game effects that bring ships back to life?

• It doesn't matter for Fel's Wrath, and nobody plays Fel's Wrath anyway.
• It doesn't matter for Saboteur, because Saboteur only applies to ships that are still among the living; same goes for Greedo.
• Why would Rexlar want to spend a focus to flip up a card on a dead ship? The ship is dead and ain't gonna get that much deader by having an extra critical effect.

Actually it would apply to Fel's Wrath because any face up card would affect his attack. Other than that I do believe it is a waste of time, but not worth losing any sleep over if my opponent would like for them to be dealt.

Actually it would apply to Fel's Wrath because any face up card would affect his attack. Other than that I do believe it is a waste of time, but not worth losing any sleep over if my opponent would like for them to be dealt.

Granted.

If the cards remain unknown, then the distribution is just as unknown.

...

Which game effects are affected by this? We're talking about a dead ship aren't we? Do we have game effects that bring ships back to life?

So you completely step over the other two big reasons given? The ones that (also new for me I must admit) you actually do flip all cards and so they dont remain unknown. And the game effect where it clearly says that all crits do matter for simultanious attack

If the cards remain unknown, then the distribution is just as unknown.

...

Which game effects are affected by this? We're talking about a dead ship aren't we? Do we have game effects that bring ships back to life?

So you completely step over the other two big reasons given? The ones that (also new for me I must admit) you actually do flip all cards and so they dont remain unknown. And the game effect where it clearly says that all crits do matter for simultanious attack

I don't believe I stepped over that. I just said that most human beings don't have the mental capacity (or patience) to count the cards and figure the probabilities that the flipped cards reveal. Also, I imagine that you flip over the pile, not each and every card separately, taking the moment to look at each one.

You will also note that I granted Vykk Draygo's point about Fel's Wrath, which also covers simultaneous attack.

I am (and I think the OP is) talking about cases when you have just nuked a little TIE fighter with four more regular hits than the TIE fighter could stand. The rule is that you give it all the extra (facedown) cards, even if it only has a hull of 3. I understand it's the rule, but I still think that's tedious and has very no fundamental effect on the game.

I can only imagine four scenarios where it really matters:

1. You're a rules lawyer arguing for the sake of arguing, who needs to be appeased
2. You're a card-voodoo practitioner who thinks that one facedown card is different than another facedown card, who needs to be appeased
3. You're Rain Man
4. You're cheating

It's more a thing of getting in the habit to do it. Like taking actions on the first round, which in most cases is useless f.e. if it's a focus. I still do it, so I dont forget when it does matter. As for being rain man or not having the mental capacity, I think it would matter to me if I fly my interceptor and have the choice to take a risk flying over an astroid or not knowing that 5 directs hits and blinded pilot already were drawn. I don't have to be a super human calculator to see that the risk is considerably lower of blowing myself up on a crit.

If the cards remain unknown, then the distribution is just as unknown.

...

Which game effects are affected by this? We're talking about a dead ship aren't we? Do we have game effects that bring ships back to life?

So you completely step over the other two big reasons given? The ones that (also new for me I must admit) you actually do flip all cards and so they dont remain unknown. And the game effect where it clearly says that all crits do matter for simultanious attack

I don't believe I stepped over that. I just said that most human beings don't have the mental capacity (or patience) to count the cards and figure the probabilities that the flipped cards reveal. Also, I imagine that you flip over the pile, not each and every card separately, taking the moment to look at each one.

You will also note that I granted Vykk Draygo's point about Fel's Wrath, which also covers simultaneous attack.

I am (and I think the OP is) talking about cases when you have just nuked a little TIE fighter with four more regular hits than the TIE fighter could stand. The rule is that you give it all the extra (facedown) cards, even if it only has a hull of 3. I understand it's the rule, but I still think that's tedious and has very no fundamental effect on the game.

I can only imagine four scenarios where it really matters:

• You're a rules lawyer arguing for the sake of arguing, who needs to be appeased
• You're a card-voodoo practitioner who thinks that one facedown card is different than another facedown card, who needs to be appeased
• You're Rain Man
• You're cheating

I don't really see how doing basic division makes you "Rain Man".

Look, just because you don't understand the math behind the rule, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are plenty of cited reasons why you should follow the rules.

To be honest, I never noticed that you flip them face up and discard them. I should go back and check my wave 1 printed rules to see if that was changed because of epic.

I don't see why everyone has a hard time following the rules in this case but they follow other rules without issue. It doesn't matter if you like the rule, you can't pick and choose which ones you want to follow.

Zlashie: it's a bit like poker - the better you are at using the information you have the better your chance of making the best decision. That's why some people are better at poker than others. No, they aren't more lucky

That's why this rule matters. It gives high-level player better information. Rexlar Brath deciding to go for a flipped crit or instead spending Focus on flipping eyes. Or, what's my risk of getting a Blinded Pilot if I save my Focus and eat a crit in the last firing round of a game so that I instead may spend it to boost my game saving attack (I've lost a game due to a Blinded Pilot crit that I could have avoided by using a Focus for defense - thus I didn't get that final shot on a 1 Hull Shuttle).

Wow! So glad I checked out this thread. I figured 3 pages on a basic answer about it being a rule was extreme. But low and behold I find out yet another wrinkle that I had long overlooked.

I have never, that I recall, used a discard pile and flipped all the cards faceup once ships were destroyed, nor do I recall my opponents doing it either and I have played against plenty of really good long time players.

The funny thing is that as I read the rule as someone transcribed here it was actually familiar and I remember reading it long long ago.

I guess I'm going to need to break out a rulebook one of these days and see if there is anything else I'm forgetting or playing wrong.

Wow! So glad I checked out this thread. I figured 3 pages on a basic answer about it being a rule was extreme. But low and behold I find out yet another wrinkle that I had long overlooked.

I have never, that I recall, used a discard pile and flipped all the cards faceup once ships were destroyed, nor do I recall my opponents doing it either and I have played against plenty of really good long time players.

The funny thing is that as I read the rule as someone transcribed here it was actually familiar and I remember reading it long long ago.

I guess I'm going to need to break out a rulebook one of these days and see if there is anything else I'm forgetting or playing wrong.

Your not I suspect alone, I play with friends so don't fear cheating but in a tournament being able to see the discarded cards is great protection from cheats the remove the worst Crist.

I must be frigging Rain Man then.