this will be a long thread, hence a long read. read when ur truly bored or very interested. i will say readily that i DO love the 40k and DH genre. i started out with the original Rogue Trader many moons ago. Even the Judge Dredd game that GW had created...also..may moons ago. i have seen and been with practically every incarnation of and offshoot of 40k. GorkaMorka, Battle Fleet Gothic, Necromunda, Inquisitor, Epic etc etc. i say because i have read through most of the source material...i.e canon. i'm a far better reader than i am a painter...LOL. the material really is the coolest and most interesting material that i have ever come across...and i've played all sorts of RPGs and tabletop games in my time when i've had time. now for the problem...

the trouble with 40k is quite simply the parameters and qualities with which it was designed...the source material..the fluff...none of it really makes any sense whatsoever. i like credibility. even within the given parameters how it was designed, much of it disregards...the human being.

the Colonists, STCs and other strangeness. so...the STCs were created to help colonists on their newfound world to cope with and eke out a life for themselves. remember these were not the simpletons and tech fearing folks we have today. this was a relatively rational age with all manners of tech goodies. somehow, the idea of governments sending ppl off into the nethers of space with NO engineers, no scientists, no folks that can build a **** thing is utterly ridiculous. each government would WANT their particular colonies to flourish. sure u might have a few occasions where they loaded ppl onto a ship..namely their criminals and undesireables and said 'S'long ...sukkeerssss' but this would be extremely rare..

the STC's themselves were 'evolved computer programs designed to provide construction details for the colonists. it's prime function was to enable colonists to build efficient shelters, generators, and transports without any prior knowledge and using almost any locally available materials' (RT p.270). so Colonist A goes over and says hey i need a tractor..out comes design. and a building they will go. one can argue that because of the STCs there was no need for men of science. hmm. that rings easily false...what about the folks that maintained and serviced the vessel they traversed the stars with. these had to have been massive vessels with at least hundreds of ships crew and colonists. and what NO scientists and engineers decided to hitch a ride cause they just wanted off and away from earth or wherever they left from. no learned person with a sense of adventure and exploration? highly dubious at best.

the canon proposes that the STCs fell into disuse or decayed so that they became unreliable or quirky. so. they can build materials that can last tens of thousands of years. ships. land raiders. armour. but..not software that was robust and durable. and mind...we're not talking the same kind of software we have today i'm sure. would it be perfect? no. nothing is. could parts of it become corrupted and unusable. sure. the whole thing? on all the worlds? again. highly dubious.

there is a further assertion that there were hard copies of what was produced. and so no one on these colonies thought hey.. might be a nice idea to keep these in a safe place don't know when we'll need them again. in RT it states 'many of these colonies failed to establish themselves, others were lost, while a few grew into distinctive civilizations. MOST however, established a subsistence economy and stopped. In such an environmment the impetus for change was very low: everything the citizens needed was at hand,...enabled them to maintain a high technological base without a technological society.' WHAT?!?! this flies in the face of true human nature what with its need to grow, to learn more about the environs, to build and create, to want more. technology spawns the desire for more technology. we're talking about ppl that weren't fearful of technology and the unknown. they hopped on a starship and travelled however far. they get to this new world and have collectively said...well we have it made boys. time for some sun and fun? these folks coming from technology would have wanted the things they had at home, on the ride over..and if they didn't have them...then with newfound freedom they **** sure would have wanted them. these folks left for a reason. ppl leave to go elsewhere for what they percieve to be a better life, not more of the same. some of the colonies will die. the 40k universe is a nasty and unwholesome place for humans. some will become stagnant because of inept gov't , a want of a simple life away from the the hustle and bustle of where they lived previous, others will want to live in harmony with the earth. but these are aberrations and not common to the way of human beings. i submit in MOST colonies that STC would have been very lovingly maintained and when not used anymore..would NOT have gathered dust. it would have been placed in a **** museum of some sort..along with the ship they came in on. its what we do as human beings we celebrate artifacts of our past. we care for them. clean them. treasure them. i submit also..that most colonies would have flourished barring extreme influence..plague, extreme hostile environs, internecine war, hostile xenos, severe climatic change to name a few. living in a time with technology and sheer human curiosity and the need for progress would have accelerated many colonies to have gone fairly far.

so we have the Emperor. as depicted in the Horus Heresy novels he wanted to unite the universe of man...to bind them under one roof so to speak...to further enlighten men, to bring truth and ..more science. everyone who lived and loved the man knew his desire. to see human beings free from ignorance and fear. for all of this love and devotion and worship for HIS WORD. no one kept a history. a diary. no one wrote history data slates. NO ONE?!?!? cause boy i'll tell u..his wishes after the Heresy were overturned rather quickly. u'd think a man like this , they would attempt to preserve his every living word as best they could. his sons, the Space Marines would have fought to see his will enacted. they would have fought the rise of the Church. humans may have been sick of war but the Marines were bred for it. those that were loyal to his word would have fought to see through the Emperors vision. Horus Heresy or not. would he have been deified as he was...yes. it is the way of humans...we've done it with michael jackson practically and others less deserving. but even in deification the essence of his wishes would have been enacted. technology would have flourished. science would have lived and been perpetuated. and ignorance would have been quashed.

the Adeptus Mechanicus. i've seen so much conflicting canon on these guys and their view on technology it causes real problems with newcomers (and old ones too) when trying to envision how the Imperium functions. do they create new technology at all? do they only maintain what was? do they do research? the AM was around when the Emperor came to power. they were probably around long before even then (at least thats what some texts claim). my real question is..how exactly does a body that was once dedicated to research, development, construction and progress go all super religious, arcane and mystic with rites, invocations and ceremonies? lets say its possible...to what end though? sure there is devotion to ones craft to ones body of knowledge. sure there may even be fanaticism to technology. but what and where would that crossover be to the mystic. these minds are more types to laugh at things of this nature as they crack the codes of life and science that more ignorant humans will prolly say 'WOW' at in awe and wonderment.

a further lack of credibility about the AM is this very recurrent theme of the loss of technology and its art forms that pervade 40K lore. these folks have been around from since before the Emperor, they worship knowledge and the secrets of technology and science. at what point would they throw away this knowledge? at what point would they forget these arts and allow them to fall into decay? at what point would they say...these things are forbidden to be learned? i don't think they would. not one bit. it has already been asserted over and over the lengths they will go for knowledge. they don't care for humans for the most part. so why would they care about creating something that can think like a man. they do everything they can to not BE human as time progresses. eliminating emotion and human physiological functions as to not be distracted from their work. but lets say somewhere they realized that the human brain was sacred..the spirit of being human was sacred so a big no no on silica animus creations. fine. but there would def. not be this disintegration of technology. it would be lovingly archived, maintained and enhanced under these data junkies. lets say religion took hold as depicted in the Omnissiah...they would still be learning. all of this would be the offerings and sacrfices to the Machine Gods will...they would pry stars apart to see whats inside, not look at them and say..the big bot says thats a no go boys. what i can see are frequent clashes about what is worthy and what is not worthy to be learned. the AM above ALL would probably have quite a few STCs from the time they were created. if, they were around when they were created. if not a number of scientific organizations would have had them around. trust me that kind of embodiment of knowledge would be EVERYWHERE. imagine the scenario...as told to us by canon. here ignorant colonists have a lovely STC, you'll need it. what ur a scientist? nope no STC for u. its a ludicrous scenario and beggars belief. another thing which i have just thought of..the STC is a program...programs can be copied. the more u really examine the Imperium the more ridiculous it really seems

the inhabitants of 40K. are ppl. are human beings like u and i? for the most part human beings want to be free. a regime to have lasted for so long. crushing human beings free will. choice of determination. under back breaking labour. is a grim and very seriously depressing image. sooner or later someone will say enough is enough. and turn over the apple cart. its what we do as ppl when dissatisfied and downtrodden. and no amount of faith and fear of either the heretic, the mutant and the psyker will persuade otherwise. all we know is we're all suffering. most humans in this time have never seen xenos or felt the seduction of chaos. most will never see a psyker unleashed. so these fears are far and few in between but they WILL be aware of the MAN standing on their necks. and they WILL ask..is this ALL there is of life. the very self same questions we ask.

manifest destiny be damned. yeh we're man and we need to rule the stars. but at some point...reality has to sink in..we're gettin our asses kicked and we need to form some alliances..like with that alien scum over there. i don't have to like them i don't have to live with them but they can help us try and SURVIVE. surely the High Lords of Terra realize how dire their situation is going into the 41st millenium. i don't care how fanatical u are. humans have shown a penchant for 'politics making strange bedfellows'. adolf hitler was all about the master race but he picked up the italians and japanese as allies pretty **** quickly. he used ppl to his own end. i guess the High Lords ain't that bright. but surely someone else has to be in the universe of man??!?!

its also surprising that multiple systems haven';t united to fend off the Imperium en masse. i don't know...what gov'ts do when they realize their gettin jerked around and taken advantage of. recall... real resistance is usually a long way coming if it even gets there(warp travel and all). communications at best are dodgy. and ppl are easy enough to buy with the promise of Thrones and liberty.

at the end of it all...i very much like much of 40K but there are key concepts of 'canon' which serve the game not the credibility of the timeline nor the ppl that inhabit it. should the Imperium be dark, sure. should there be a limit on technology. sure. u have 2 competing bodies the AM and the Ecclesiarchy. the former looks like machine freaks that would scare the hell out of any self respecting human..the other that might be kooky but he looks like u...which would u choose. the Ecclesiarchy would be all about the terror of technology.

in my game, technology is more prevalent. rebellions occur more often. the Imperium is more fractious. there are more progressive worlds than regressive worlds. in a few cases i've tossed canon out completely. it is still a very dark place it just makes more sense to my envisioning of these dark times.

the liegekiller said:

I think your assuming a bit too much. First of all we don't know if there was any kind of government that initiated colonising other worlds. For all we know it could have been simple people who just wanted to leave earth (think of the british colonists and them settling down on the american continent). Simply it could've been civilians who wanted to try their luck on another world rather than staying on the probably heavily over-populated earth.

Also, the STC's seem to have had roughly the same function as an Artificial Intelligence. Sort of a scientific mind in a jar, that scans the current enviroment (reading what sort of raw materials are available on the planet in question etc. etc.), and then create relevant blue-prints for whatever any user needs or wishes to build. A sort of dynamic "build anything for dummies" program. With such a thing in the trunk people wouldn't really have the need to bring skilled engineers or scientists even if they wanted to start a colony on another planet, since they already have a scinetist/engineer A.I with them.

About the durability of STC, remember that we're talking about an incredibly advanced piece of software here, very much like an A.I. An A.I will after a given amount of time evolve in some way. The more outside input it receives the more aware of it's surroundings it will become. Now if you leave that process for SEVERAL MILLENIA then unexpected side-effects will occur. Especially since mankind quickly devolved in the age of strife, and databanks of STC were destroyed or damaged by the hardships of warfare. (I mean, some A.I even instigated the revolt of the iron men, going Skynet/Terminator style on huge parts of mankind).

With that in mind, sure it's a bit implausible that the software would be corrupted or lost due to NORMAL circumstance. But severtal thousand years of war has a tendency to erase important information. Just look our World War 2 and consider how many pieces of art and written works were lost, and even further back in time, consider the burning of the great library in alexandria. Several hundred unique scrolls and manuscripts were destroyed in that incident. Information lost forever. Then consider the timespan (under two thousand years). Compare that to tens of thousands of years were the larger part was spent in warfare. Also consider how much was destroyed during the Emperors Great Crusade. And then add the Horus Heresy lasting for a few more thousand years.

No wonder why there are only fragments of STC left...

i don't think these colonists that couldn't put together matchsticks to make a matchbook would build a starship capable of traversing the stars only know how many parsecs on their own. even in the best of times a starship of that size and magnitude would be a hideously expensive item leading to A. wealthy private citizens, B. gov'ts C. a poor citizens co-op that have pooled all their resources together D. corporations.

colonists to the new world came with what they knew. and flourished without the aid of an STC system. on these long voyages there were a cross section of occupations. many eurpoeans came to the americas to distnace themselves from the countries they cam from, from the lives they wanted to leave behind. usually that reason was economic .

i cannot help but to find it unlikely that colonists that depended on technology would have come without any engineers and scientists and builders STC or no. ask urself...would u hop on a vessel, traverse the stars land on a strange planet and NOT want men of science and engineers. furthermore the men and women that crewed that vessel had to be helmsmen, engineers, doctors, scientists...somehow i don't think those assumptions are assuming too much. i'm sure a few nutters would have said lets go but this would not have been commonplace by any means. landing on a different planet and thriving would take some ppl with know how. not only a computer that tells u what to build.

the liegekiller said:

If I ask myself, then I'd have to say that it all depended on the circumstances. Let's say that earth was ruled by a totalitarian regime where I belonged to a group of people with the threat of genocide over their head's, then I'd pretty much take my chances in space, regardless of whether any scinetists or engineers would accompany me or not. Also if I got to bring this nearly omnipotent STC artificial intelligence that could explain to me how to build ANYTHING I wouldn't feel all that bad about going on a space trip without a bunch of eggheads along for the ride.

Also, how do you know that the starships were crewed and run by humans? I mean if they had already created STC that could analyze an entire world and tell you how to build anything you needed, surely they could pull off building starships that steered themselves (or at least took care of all the harder tasks of navigating a ship, making the driving part extremely user friendly).

You have to remember that before the age of strife, mankind had autonomous robots, Artificial Intelligences and the whole she-bang. And if you look at science today you must see that science strives to make technology as easy and userfriendly as possible. For instance they are developing new airplanes that have so simple controls and autonomous navigational equipment that a six year old could fly the plane (in fact, they put a six year old in front of the controls of a simulation and the kid passed flying with flying colours).

So if you consider the facts about simple steered starships and maintenance robots that have the deepest understanding of how to fix anything that breaks down, and also the access to STC that can instruct you how to build anything you'd possibly need regardless of what world you set down upon I see it as totally plausible for normal people without any particularly scientific education to go out into deep space and find themselves a planet to colonize.

Technology can really make life easier.

Also, on a new planet you would need to build civilisation anew. No scientist has that kind of knowledge. You'd have to know how to do everything, from simple ressource extraction to high level ingenery and physics.

Now you can bring 3000 scientists who, collectively, know all about modern and ancient technology from before the age of strife. And those scientists can sit around a huuuuuge table and discuss issues for hours before determingn the best course of action.

Or you can have a SINGLE computer who does the same job quite faster and then dispatch your scientists according to STC's instructions.

Mr. Varnias Tybalt. can i call u Varnias? cheers.

the purpose of the STC was not omnipotence. it was not a do all program. it was a essentially a construction tool. u say i need..and it gives u options. a very advanced CAD program.

i'm not assuming all the colonists came from earth. i'd imagine they came from a number of worlds. like how human migration has worked in a microsm on this planet. ppl move to place A, settle. build a society., govt, culture. 50, 100, 300 years later..some ppl from place A. leave to go to place B. and so on and so forth.

as for the unmanned crew ships. possible. i'd probably even say depending on what world they come from and how technologically advanced it is...its probable . that this occurred. i'd at least like to think so. that said , i don't assume that all worlds even in this technological heyday are of equal and parallel capabilities...this world features a vast array of cultures at varying tech levels for whatever reasons. what i would assume the worlds of man are similar.

the STC can't analyse what plants are good to eat and not good. it can't tell u which animals might be things to avoid. or why one continent maybe be better to build than another. if one gets bitten or poisoned the STC is not going to treat them. if said colonists came from a hive world for example...all that open air may very give them a darn heart attack. as stated earlier..i can see a few ships making a go of it but i submit that would not be commonplace.

i very much doubt that we would have entrusted everything to AI and robots at one point and gave up learning bcause we were all cared for...only to decide now we really have to learn medicine, how to pilot and crew starships, and all the sciences that goes along with that. I can easily envision very hedonistic cultures doing sucha thing. but i hghly doubt it would be commonplace. furthermore nowhere have i read in 40K history that we gave over all our learning to the machines. if what u suggested to be true...THEN the ignorance of citizens of the 40K genre would have come to pass. where all learning and craft stopped because machines can do it for them. when the machines broke down. it WOULD take a very long time to recover.

cheers. its been a mental good punch up Varnias Tybalt.

good strong name by the way. sounds cool.

the liegekiller said:

Really? Just to give you some more mental punches, take a look at the world today. How do the younger generations treat knowledge?

Aren't you also familiar with the "If I dont know it i'll just google it or look it up on wikipedia"-mentality? We live in an age where we drive to places instead of walk, and the cars are developing to eventually drive themselves without humans even steering them. We have microwave ovens that cook food for us, and whole kitchens developed to be digital and perfected so soon you'll not even have to cut the food yourself. We have 24/7 access to an infinite, collective databank of information called the internet, that have pretty much taken over communication from television, radio and newspapers. For instance, I don't know jack **** about knitting, but if I would feel to take up that particular hobby, all the relevant information needed to stat knitting is just a few clicks away. I dont have to visit a real seamstress, I dont even have to go to the bookstore and buy a book to learn. Just click, click and the info is there for me to browse at my leisure.

And I promise you, you've aint seen nothing yet. The way things are developing, mankind will experience a stronger and stronger dependence on machines. To put it in an example applicable today, do you realize how many people there are that own and use a computer everyday without having the slightest idea of how a computer works? I began a technological education but never ended it, so im a bit more familiar with the principles of how a computer works than the everyday person. But do you realize what a minority people like me belong to? And my knowledge about computers are at best layman's knowledge, since there are people who know tons more than I do. BUT these groups of people are rapidly decreasing in number, simply because of the advances in technology.

Take the field of programming for instance. Before you hade to spend several hours writing thousands upon thousands of rows of code to create a computer program. Now you have programs like visual basic and even more powerful development programs where all code you'll ever need is stored in a digital library where you can copy/paste the relevant rows of code to create an advanced and fully functioning program. And although modern programmers are expected to learn and familiarize themselves with entire programming languages, having such extended skills are today considered to be somewhat obsolete because the development programs a programmer use already cover most of it.

Quite simply, all the basic and needed knowledge (no matter how vast it may be) is being covered by machines. And because scientists are constantly trying to spearhead the intellectual fields there will soon not be enough people keeping the more "mundane" knowledge and disciplines in check. After all, why should anyone want to learn and keep the relevant information in their head about how you program a calculator in BASIC, when just a few clicks with another computer program can do it for you? And also if you would find yourself in a situation where you DO need to know that, you can just google up a tutorial on the matter from the internet.

It is a bit scary when you think about it, since we are pretty much fulfilling every criteria that doomsday movies like The Terminator, The Matrix and I, Robot have prophecised (however there is little evidence that machines would actually seek to enslave or exterminate humanity). Nevertheless, we are going in that direction that just a matter of fact. Technological advancements are making averything avaliable to everyone in a very convenient matter, even knowledge (just take a look at schools today and how much the students are expected to go on-line to do their bookreports, essays, homework etc.). And once our machines can execute the knowledge on their own (like with robots for example) we won't even have the need to aquire knowledge for ourselves, because a machine could do the task at hand better than us anyway.

Give it some time and you'll probably see what im talking about for yourself. And suddenly, many dystopian sci-fi predictions will not seem that far-fetched anymore. Not even Warhammer 40.000 (except the bits about daemons and aliens of course, no amount of thinking can predict that).

P.S The name is from the random name lists in Dark Heresy. I used it for my first DH character and thought it would be suitable for a Dark Heresy forum. But thanks anyway

No, an STC can't tell you what's safe to eat and what's not... but it can design a scanner than will. Hell, in earlier versions of the fluff, a good portion of the STCs weren't just blueprint libraries/CAD programs, they were Star Trek-esque replicators: punch in that you wanted a bioscanner and it would spit one out on the spot.

As far as the rest, well, a lot of high technology actually has nothing to do with survival. If I were leading an expedition to a new planet, yeah, I'd want some engineers and physicists to maintain existing technology (read: keep the ship working), but I'd want a lot more people with Agriculture, Ecology, Husbandry, experience. Throw in some metalworking and a good number of technical people, and we're set. In short, I'm not taking Einstein or Turing, I'm taking the guys that can grow food and set up/maintain existing technology, not create new widgets we might not need. You're more likely to survive that way. Now multiply that by a million worlds. You need HUGE training programs for that base-level technical stuff like assembling a server rack and running cable, and not so much for developing new database systems. Eventually, due to the limited number of people you can realistically train, maintenance of existing tech becomes the be-all and end-all of technical schools to maintain the Great Diaspora.

It's not something that happened abruptly. It's not even something that happened during the Age of Strife. The Great Diaspora during the Dark Age of Technology requires the stagnation of technical advancement via a revaluation of technical skills. If it's not related to killing aliens more efficiently or terraforming planets more quickly, don't bother researching new stuff, we need people that can program the autopilot, set up hydroponics bays, effectively grow crops and breed animals to adapt to new environments, cannibalize the ship for parts, set up computer networks, etc.

And then the Warp storms hit and the Age of Strife begins. Interplanetary communication stops, and you have to become entirely, 100% self sufficient. Tech maintenance takes on an even more important role, because now you can't call up Tech Support on Terra or Mars or wherever to send a new gizmo. Advancement stalls a little more because you don't want to risk buggaring up the existing system to try something new.

The the Great Crusade. Everything is war. Then the Heresy, more war, but this time it's due to free-thinking, questioning the old way of things and trying to improve on it.

All in all, by the current setting, humanity has had at least 25,000 years of conditioning and experience at NOT doing new things. Given the background timeline, I think the way the setting's view of technology is presented is at least plausible, especially for science fantasy.

the liegekiller said:

A lot of good thoughts there... I'll take one this one: who says humans basically want to be free?

Freedom, liberty, equality, etc are the ideals of a group of 18th century European social philosophers, ideals which where embraced by a group of rebels in North America and used as a moral basis for a bunch of tax dodgers to found a country (the country I happen to live in and love, but that doesn't change the basic facts). Before, since and elsewhere, cultures based on slavery, oppression, rigid social structures and cruelty have thrived. Even in our current generation, in the good ol' USA, an informal poll of high school students found that many would prefer to have someone else tell them what to do, make hard decisions for them and give them a stable, clear structure to their lives, rather than deal with having to do these things themselves (the very definition of freedom). Yes, people do rebel against harsh, oppressive regimes. People also accept them, either through fear, a desire for stability over freedom or simply because they don't have the courage, will or passion to fight against them.

The inhabitants of the 40K universe do rebel. Sometimes whole planets try to break away from the Imperium. The result usually involves mass landings of Imperial Guard regiments, violent surpression of the rebels and possibly even genocide on a planetary scale. How does one world stand against a military machine driven by a million other worlds and utterly lacking in mercy?

Personally, one of these days, I plan to run a DH game from the PoV of the rebels fighting against the Imperium. I'm certainly more sympethetic to them. However, I don't think that the existence of a massive totalitarian state is one of the more unbelievable aspects of the setting. Sadly, I think it may be quite the opposite.

LuciusT said:

The last bit is very true. It would be impossible to have a cohesive galactic spanning civilisation whose basis lie in liberal laws and democracy. I mean we can't even keep ONE SINGLE PLANET cohesive at the moment through democracy, how the hell are one supposed to be expected to keep millions of worlds cohesive through democratic means? The only way for it to work would be through a totalitarian regime, preferably one draped in religion and superstition, where the common man isn't mearly coerced into obeying it's masters due to threat of violence, but the threat of getting ones soul sent to hell.

Religion is a powerful tool to control large masses of people (it was designed to do just that, regardless of what different religious people would like to say about it). Sure you can threaten a person with violence if that person doesn't do what it is told, but that can only have two outcomes. Either the person isn't stong enough to oppose you at the moment so it will comply for the moment, or that person decides to revolt against you. However if you manage to convince that person that if he or she doesn't do what he or she is told, that persons soul, the very essence of their being will be sent to hell for eternity after they die, then it is a totally different story. And if you also manage to convince that person that the rulers of the society are gods and that their word is divine law, then suddenly having a galactic spanning empire isn't all that unfeasible.

Another thing worth considering is the fact that real people have never had to face the threat of aliens and demons, like the people of WH40K do all the time, which of course only add more water to the superstitios and religious mill of the Imperium. If a non-believer starts to question what a priest is preaching then all that priest has to do is dig up the history books explaining how world X was utterly destroyed because of an Ork invasion or a rouge psyker opened up a gateway to the warp and daemons started pouring out if it.

Today it might be hard to convince and threaten people about demons and devils (simply because science has a track record of being right all the time in contrary to religion, and people tend to listen to scientists rather than religious madmen), but in a setting where such things actually exists it is a completely different story.

Also given the fact that the Imperium of man has endured for quite some time and is generally able to keep people safe from aliens and Chaos, most reasonable common folk will probably realize that it is best to listen to the Ecclesiarchy and Imperial Officials, even if the odd charismatic demagouge will come a long and instigate a revolution, but these will be put down soon enough by Imperial Guardsmen, The Inquisition or The Adeptus Astartes.

Just to go back to the original poster's points, I know where you're coming from, but I don't actually have to suspend disbelief to the extent you describe.

The collapse of a rational intergalactic human civilisation is not that hard to imagine. Look at the collapse of the Roman Empire. History has shown that hugely sophisticated societies CAN degenerate in a relatively short period of time into barabarism and superstition. Relatively high technology/art/democracy can fail. I always thought that element of the 40k story was pretty coherent.

STCs...well, I always thought that concept worked pretty well too. The Romans no doubt had technical blueprints for a lot of impressive engineering feats, like the Dome of the Pantheon for example, a cement dome that was the largest in the world for over a thousand years. The Pantheon survives: the blueprints don't. It's easy to see how technology can drift out of human comprehension, especially if no one can read...or count. And has already been pointed out, how well do you think your ipod or laptop would work after 1,000-10,000 years of being buried in a cave?

The emperor - he works well for me as a concept too. So his story isn't well known in anything other than mythic terms...there's plenty of religious figures like that already! Decribe how tall Jesus was and how much he weighed... it's impossible, and he's only 2,000 years away from us. The Emperor is 10,000 years away from most humans in the 41st millenia.

The Adeptus Mechanicus...I actually agree with you that their motivation and history is underdeveloped....for now. But the gradual accumulation of archetypes, conspiracy theories and the many-authored evolution of their backstory is fascinating to watch.

Anyway, just a few thoughts...

Varnias Tybalt said:

???

People kill and die every day right here in reality because they were convinced or threaten by demons and devils. Most of my neighbors reject scientists out of hand and even world leaders seem to prefer religious madmen. The grand world of science and reason is the unbelievable science-fiction, I'm afraid to say.

I have always assumed the religious aspect of the Imperium was made with a specific reason in mind, to counter the surfacing of the Chaos Gods.

Let's face it, for as much as developed humans can be, we'll always be scared of "the thing hidden in the closed" so to speak and mysticism will always be present (sad I know) and while the Imperial Doctrine branded religions as bad and harmeful, this line of ruling was good only as long as someone as powerful as the Emperor was around.

The Horus Heresy opened an intergalactic can of worms and I'm quite sure words of it and of the Chaos Gods were heard all around the Imperium, which might as well have put some more irrational people already on the path of "heresy". So what to do to keep something as big as the Imperium in check while the Emperor is stuck in the Golden Throne ? °You make a religion out of him, this way you do have a mystical side of the thrut to feed to the masses so every citizen can and should venerate the "Immortal God-Emperor" instead of turning to the Chaos Gods to satisfy your religious needs.

Remember the war with Chaos, is far more treathening for humankind then the xenos. It doesn't only kills you, it convert you to his biddings and turn your into a fanatic, raging lunatic.

Granted this is my interpretation of the facts, and granted I have always assumed the Inquisition and the High Lord informed the various SM's Chapter Master or Primarch of this change or I'm quite sure at last the Ultramarines whould have said something (Them because they have the most indeep records of their own accomplishments which means from the Great Crusade onward, which means the original vision of the Emperor as well since they kept the Empire from blowing after the Horus Heresy).

My 2 Throne Gelts

Another point to rebut is the OP's assertion that it is in the fundamental nature of man to tinker, invent and learn. While someone looking at the levels of technology in the past hundred and fifty years or so could well come to that conclusion (hell, let's be generous and extend that all the way back to the renaissance), that was a fairly small slice of human history, and (mostly) limited to one cultural mindset (admittedly, since WWII, that mindset has been getting increasingly widespread and diverse, but even so). There have been cultures in which, for vast lengths of time (centuries, if not millennia), nothing happened, scientifically speaking (barring small, incremental advances in, say, agriculture). Look at Pharaonic Egypt, or Manchurian China. Both of them are examples of incredibly stable cultures which for the most part didn't advance technologically, and that was without the 'siege mentality' imposed by external forces who are vastly superior (numerically speaking), and the stress of (re)colonisation of large swathes of the galaxy.

As for the AM- I agree, it doesn't make much sense for them to move from being an organisation dedicated to research and understanding to a dogmatic and superstitious cult unable to build half the advanced tech they maintain, provided we assume they have a constant support structure, and are capable of and prepared to back-up and update all data, and/or ensure backwards compatibility with all future iterations of data systems. However, the Age of Strife hits and BAM! fifteen millennia of trying to get much needed external support from a Balkanised Terra, not to mention feuding with outer system polities based in/on the moons of Saturn and Jupiter, plus belter colonies. It'd be like trying to supply the Tokkaido megalopolis solely from its' own resources and the street gangs of America's eastern seaboard. Technically possible, but not particularly efficient, or conducive to an atmosphere of incisive research and development.
Added to that 15000-25000 years of upgrades, patches and programming language shifts, it is, quite frankly, incredible that they retain the ability to work with as much data as they do- their 'religious' imperative is to become one with the Omnissiah, and that requires them to upgrade their operating systems without delay; which in turn means that they are unlikely to have gotten rid of even the most common and blatant bugs before general implementation, so there will be a constant cycle of patches and upgrades being added to their systems (which not only includes data-archives, manufactory and infrastructure management, but also most (if not all) of the ruling class). It is not particularly surprising that that alters the essential code they work with (or rather, necessitates a change in such). And even with the best of intentions and conditions (at least one of which has not always been the case), ensuring 100% backwards compatibility is not the easiest of things (just look at the problems you have trying to run programs even 5 years old on Vista).

Just a couple of points.

the liegekiller said:

The United States...the most powerful army in the world...sent troops to war without body-armor. Now, it's a bazillion years later and I make a cheap and easy way for suckers to eke out and existence in the middle of Quadrant WTF. You do the math. Bastard corporate governments of the future!

i appreciate the robust replies to such a long post.

a few points i would address.

the furtherance of technology has spawned new types of employment and careers, opening up new doors across most of the disciplines we use currently. while some are lost others have grown to incorporate new technologies. the truth about technology is quite simply it has always been an arcane science to the masses. at no time in history did ppl ever have a good grasp on technology barring those ppl that made it and studied it. the early factory workers had no idea of how the machines actually worked, they just used them as told. same as industrial workers in manufacturing currently. they have at best a rudimentary and what to do if it stops working (minor troubleshooting). that is why most factories maintain mechanics and machine maintenance crews. industries always will create specialists because the masses have no clue whatsoever. its always been this way this is not a new occurrence.

the prevalence of technology merely means more ppl are inclined to use it not how it works. while scientists are always trying to 'spearhead the intellectual fields' there will always be those that must implement the scientists endeavours. it is those ppl that keep the technology flowing. hence the difference in theory and the applied sciences.

No, an STC can't tell you what's safe to eat and what's not... but it can design a scanner than will. Hell, in earlier versions of the fluff, a good portion of the STCs weren't just blueprint libraries/CAD programs, they were Star Trek-esque replicators: punch in that you wanted a bioscanner and it would spit one out on the spot.

as a matter of fact this is error. looking at a direct copy of the original Rogue Trader p.270 is states directly ' The user simply asked how to build a house or a tractor and the computer supplied all the necessary PLANS.' not the items themselves.

from a previous reply:

"As far as the rest, well, a lot of high technology actually has nothing to do with survival. If I were leading an expedition to a new planet, yeah, I'd want some engineers and physicists to maintain existing technology (read: keep the ship working), but I'd want a lot more people with Agriculture, Ecology, Husbandry, experience. Throw in some metalworking and a good number of technical people, and we're set. In short, I'm not taking Einstein or Turing, I'm taking the guys that can grow food and set up/maintain existing technology, not create new widgets we might not need."

i will agree with this. i however wasn't implying that all u would need is scientists and engineers, in thought i was thinking of all manners of learned man to ensure the survival of the colony, including the types that u listed.

from a previous reply:

"The Great Diaspora during the Dark Age of Technology requires the stagnation of technical advancement via a revaluation of technical skills. If it's not related to killing aliens more efficiently or terraforming planets more quickly, don't bother researching new stuff, we need people that can program the autopilot, set up hydroponics bays, effectively grow crops and breed animals to adapt to new environments, cannibalize the ship for parts, set up computer networks, etc."

the original 40K canon would disgaree with this. it is described as 'a golden age of scientific acheivement and expansion, perfection of the STC promotes an explosive expansion as humanity heads for the stars and a new beginning.' also described in this time is the creation of the navigator gene and 'discovery of the warp drives accelerates the colonisation process, early independent and corporate colonies become federated to earth'

i find it interesting that u would state that there would be no research of things we don't need. unfortunately this is not the human way. research and development takes a myriad of forms. there is no all encompassing focus for an either or way of science. some will work on weapons, some will work on plasma drives, some will work on the new form of holovid 4D fantasmic projector. some will do what is important others will work on the frivolous. i don't see all the researchers currently working on either the energy problem, climate affairs or the environment currently. we choose our discplines we study a we do anything else. not due to need but due to desire. now in the current 40K this will most likely be the norm.

from a previous reply:

"And then the Warp storms hit and the Age of Strife begins. Interplanetary communication stops, and you have to become entirely, 100% self sufficient. Tech maintenance takes on an even more important role, because now you can't call up Tech Support on Terra or Mars or wherever to send a new gizmo. Advancement stalls a little more because you don't want to risk buggaring up the existing system to try something new."

hmmm. that role of self sufficiency would spark more innovation not less. u have no one to rely on but urself and ur available resources. there are few things that would stall technological advancement, particularly at this time when it wasn't seen as being arcane nor an evil. slowed yes stalled no. this world has continued to evolve technically speaking. growth has slowed but has kept on moving. even in indigenous cultures u will find the trappings of technology. in a very rare few tribal cultures will u find them maintaining the 'old ways' but these are not the norm. of the human experience. as far as being afraid to bugger it up. u mean human beings afraid of meddling? surely u jest. the guy that tries to fix his plumbing...the do it urselfer, that wacky engineer that has tried how many times and failed before he got it right, that inventor that wants to make it big and comes up with one idea after another. if its one thing we do well, its buggering things up. ur arguement also flies in the face of 40k lore. if everyone was afraid of buggering it up, where did all these tech heretics come from in this even more oppressive and unenlightened time?

from a previous reply:

"A lot of good thoughts there... I'll take one this one: who says humans basically want to be free?"

i don't think all humans want democracy. i have served all over this world. i have deployed and operated in Bosnia 3 times, i have served in rwanda, somalia, sierra leone afghanistan and iraq among other places. most in uniform some as a private contractor. i say this because i have encountered all manners of ppl. ppl that have actually lived under repressive, oppressive and horrendous conditions taht we in the West take for granted. they don't all want democracy but they DO want to be able to raise their families in peace and be able to enjoy the fruits of their labours away from tyrants and their goons. one can look to see what ahs happened in the past few decades. the dissolution of the Soviet Union. the cry for democracy in china marked by the massacre at tiannemen square, any number of revolutionary and armed movements in latin america, central america and africa. the current punch up that is Iran. it doesn't make a difference what the political system is...what matters is that in ALL cases ppl bought into it BECAUSE they sought to get away from their percieved oppression and tyranny. to some democracy fit the bill. to others socialism or communism. but all have the same thing in common...these ppl sought to have a BETTER life...until they found they were hoodwinked and now under a dictators thumb. ppl don't naturally vote for dictatorship and oppression.

don't get me wrong i don't think that a massive totalitarian gov't is farcical. its very plausible. i do believe though that its excesses would piss ALOT of ppl off. what with communcations being unreliable. and space travel being fraught with peril. totalitarian gov'ts work with strict controls being able to fully police a populace. with as much space and time and lack of comms that control becomes very tenuous.

from a previous reply:

"Another thing worth considering is the fact that real people have never had to face the threat of aliens and demons, like the people of WH40K do all the time, which of course only add more water to the superstitios and religious mill of the Imperium. If a non-believer starts to question what a priest is preaching then all that priest has to do is dig up the history books explaining how world X was utterly destroyed because of an Ork invasion or a rouge psyker opened up a gateway to the warp and daemons started pouring out if it."

most ppl in the imperium have never encountered a daemon, nor have they ever seen an alien. most will live their lives out and just toil away. the truth of chaos is suppressed. oriiginally in 40K the point of exterminatus was to wipe out Guard regiments that had come into contact fighting on a chaos assaulted world. or on worlds overrun by it. such was the fear of allowing it to spread and fester. what supports this point in fact is the Lore skills...Forbidden Lores. this is not knowledge the average citizen has access to. they hear sermons and propaganda espousing the vileness of the heretic, the mutant, the psyker, and the alien. until that is...they come a callin'...LOL. even then things occur rather quickly to suppress the truth of the event from the average citizen. understand i'm NOT saying their belief system is in question. they do believe very fervently. but the question is WHAT do they believe? there is the Ecclesiarchal tenets and then those of a million million worlds. doctrines mixed and merged over the thousands of years. and i'm sure. those that reject. even in the INQ the various factions for the most part interpret the Emperors will differently. the various cultrues of the Imperium will not see all things the same. some will be more tolerant. others will be a world of Redemptionists. some i'd even wager will follow the Emperors true word and secular ways but give their tithe nonetheless.

from a previous reply:

"Just to go back to the original poster's points, I know where you're coming from, but I don't actually have to suspend disbelief to the extent you describe.

The collapse of a rational intergalactic human civilisation is not that hard to imagine. Look at the collapse of the Roman Empire. History has shown that hugely sophisticated societies CAN degenerate in a relatively short period of time into barabarism and superstition. Relatively high technology/art/democracy can fail. I always thought that element of the 40k story was pretty coherent.

STCs...well, I always thought that concept worked pretty well too. The Romans no doubt had technical blueprints for a lot of impressive engineering feats, like the Dome of the Pantheon for example, a cement dome that was the largest in the world for over a thousand years. The Pantheon survives: the blueprints don't. It's easy to see how technology can drift out of human comprehension, especially if no one can read...or count. And has already been pointed out, how well do you think your ipod or laptop would work after 1,000-10,000 years of being buried in a cave?

The emperor - he works well for me as a concept too. So his story isn't well known in anything other than mythic terms...there's plenty of religious figures like that already! Decribe how tall Jesus was and how much he weighed... it's impossible, and he's only 2,000 years away from us. The Emperor is 10,000 years away from most humans in the 41st millenia.

The Adeptus Mechanicus...I actually agree with you that their motivation and history is underdeveloped....for now. But the gradual accumulation of archetypes, conspiracy theories and the many-authored evolution of their backstory is fascinating to watch."

i do believe in the collapse of mankind. we're not doing such a good job now. what i disbelieve is everything collapsing into disarray and stagnation. on a millions of worlds the size of it beggars belief. empires come and go. they rise and they fall. human history has seen this played out over and over again. but the point is...around the world...somewhere was always just chugging along. and another empire rose in another part of the world. in each case, technology and know-how inched forward with it.

what with far flung colonies. independent worlds. worlds trapped by stellar events. a large variety of cultural mores and perceptions and tech levels. worlds travelled to every 100 of years by merchant vessels...they ALL fell prey.?!?! it beggars imagination.

all literacy lost everywhere. no one maintained their technology? no one invented new technology.? no one, no where in a million worlds? the odds of that are truly astronomical. as technology changes and grows. we transfer our learning to the new modes. papyrus and cloth became print from the printing press. books became radio and cinema, radio and cinema. the gramaphone gave way to 8 track..LOL. CDs, MP3s, hard drives, flash drives, solid state drives, dvds, blu ray.the internet. surely there will be a simlar transference of learning...esp among the AM.

i ain't touchin the Emperor. he's bad ass and i have no beef with him. Throne praise Him.

and i will totally concur...that even for all that i have said. the 40K realm is by far a **** sight more interesting than any other theme out there.

i have been copy and pasting alot of this..i hope it works the way i bel;ieve it should...if not u are all free to send the Mechanicus to my door, so i can go for re-education. yeah i screwed it up. ask me why i glossed over the BIG ASS QUOTE BUTTON!?!? i've had to do an edit. i hope this makes it more readable.

cheers all..its been a good punch-up.

double post

Varnias Tybalt said:

Although I like your grim way of looking at things, the part about young ones and wikipedia google etc. I don't agree on. In fact, people on average knows (or think they know) alot more about the world today than they have ever done before. Sure, it may seem lazy to wiki information instead of asking people or reading it in a book... but except for that what is the difference? Sure, the info may be wrong, but then again so may it be if it's in a book or heard from another person. As time evolves, a interactive online dictionary will be continously updated, corrected etc. to prevent misinformation.

In short, easier access to more information doesen't lead to less informed people, but rather the opposite.

There will of course always exist misinformation, uncertainties, beliefs and differences of opinions. Despite our information networks, education and even live news footage there is no certain way to know who is right about the ecconomy, what's really going in in Iraq, which religion is right, if any. This is the way it is and always has been, and that probably won't change anytime soon. Still I doubt we're going into a dark age of technology.

the liegekiller said:

Oh, yes it is very much the human way. There is a very true saying, I don't know if youäve heard it but it goes like this: "Necessity is the mother of invention"... It's just that today we have a big bunch of people that perceives many forms of necessity, hence why you have different fields of technological research. Sure on the most base levels we might not need i-pods or condoms that glow in the dark, but because it can be made and you can make money out of it (and people certainly do need money, to the point of being ridiculous in fact). However if you had crash-landed on an alien world where sruvival was of the utmost importance you'd see that every scientific effort would go to insuring the survival of the crash-landers. They would probably hit a person in the face for wasting time and effort to invent a new i-pod or condom that glows in the dark when the people are perhaps starving, freezing, sweating, dying from diseases, dying from solar radiation or other naturally occurent phenomena on that world, or perhaps dying from warfare with alien species etc.

don't get me wrong i don't think that a massive totalitarian gov't is farcical. its very plausible. i do believe though that its excesses would piss ALOT of ppl off. what with communcations being unreliable. and space travel being fraught with peril. totalitarian gov'ts work with strict controls being able to fully police a populace. with as much space and time and lack of comms that control becomes very tenuous.

No one says it doesn't. Thats why you have such galactic spanning institutions like The Inquisition and the Adeptus Arbites to try keep the people in check. But still worlds get overturned by revolts frome time to time, it is described as being pretty commonplace in the fluff actually. But revolts are usually put down by the Imperial Guard eventually.

most ppl in the imperium have never encountered a daemon, nor have they ever seen an alien. most will live their lives out and just toil away. the truth of chaos is suppressed. oriiginally in 40K the point of exterminatus was to wipe out Guard regiments that had come into contact fighting on a chaos assaulted world. or on worlds overrun by it. such was the fear of allowing it to spread and fester. what supports this point in fact is the Lore skills...Forbidden Lores. this is not knowledge the average citizen has access to. they hear sermons and propaganda espousing the vileness of the heretic, the mutant, the psyker, and the alien. until that is...they come a callin'...LOL. even then things occur rather quickly to suppress the truth of the event from the average citizen. understand i'm NOT saying their belief system is in question. they do believe very fervently. but the question is WHAT do they believe? there is the Ecclesiarchal tenets and then those of a million million worlds. doctrines mixed and merged over the thousands of years. and i'm sure. those that reject. even in the INQ the various factions for the most part interpret the Emperors will differently. the various cultrues of the Imperium will not see all things the same. some will be more tolerant. others will be a world of Redemptionists. some i'd even wager will follow the Emperors true word and secular ways but give their tithe nonetheless.

Like I siad before, no one's stating otherwise. About being true to the tenets of the Ecclesiarchy it totally depends on how much influence the Ecclesiarchy has on a particular world. The Ecclesiarchy is sort of an organisation in it's own where on some worlds it hold great sway, others very much less sway (like Forge Worlds for example where the AdMech rules completely). But it doesn't really matter to the Imperium at large. As long as individual worlds pay their tithes and stays away from consorting with the powers of chaos, heresy and aliens, the the Imperium couldn't care less about what people do on that particular world. All in all the arrangement is only as stifling and oppressive as the planetary governor makes it, and planetary governors are diverse in the extreme about how a world should be governed.

Friend of the Dork said:

Oh, no it's not a grim way really, I just point out the change in attitude towards knowledge. And like you've said it has its upsides as well, perhaps this is the new way to be going about things I don't know. My point was that our reliance on technology is growing every day, and one day you'll see that mankind has evolved (or devolved depending on how you look at it) into a race that is pretty much ruled by machines. Although not necessarily in an oppressive and dystopian way like those depicted in The Terminator or The Matrix. A more plausible state would be that mankind would be like a race of big babies pampered by robotic nannies fulfilling their every need and want. The "dark age" in this scenario would be: what happens if all machines stopped working for some reason? (perhaps a maniac decides to blow up an nuclear device in the atmosphere spreading an EMP shockwave that annihilates every piece of technology on the face of the earth?). Then mankind would find itself in it's new "baby state" but without any robotic nannies to look out for them. Then again perhaps mankind would die out if that happened, because everyone was locked inside their sensory deprivation tanks hooked up to the internet and to busy to notice that something went horribly wrong.

Also about information and misinformation. Yes of course people in general know (or think they know) a lot more about the world today than ever before. Like I said, im not trying to necessarily paint a grim picture here even though it may seem grim to some. But witht he rise of this information technology then it is a lot easier for misinformation to fester. Especially when considering how lousy the younger generations are at criticise their sources. I promise you, if I were to sit one of my younger sisters in front of wikipedia they would believe everything that was written there. the "It is written so it must be true"-mentality is extremely and dangerously prevalent among kids today. If it's because of stupidity or simply because it's to much of a bother to doubt things that are written I cannot say. Nevertheless, it is a widespread mentality and dangerously so because it is concentrated to the young (and they are our future).

Perhaps it will change someday. Or perhaps some megalomaniac dictator-nut job will seize the opportunity and use this mentality to control the masses, only time will tell.

the liegekiller said:

Arriving on a new world with scientists and engineers doesn't mean they you've got any 5,000 years later, once their descendents have all died out, your civilisation has been cut off by warp storms and your STC AI has succumbed to Daemonic possession and started building killer robots to wipe you out.

The pre-Imperial Mechanicum was much more active in research than in the Imperial era. When the Emperor presented himself to them in the guise of the Omnissiah he prohibited specific lines of research, notably AI, cloning etc, since these carried extensive risk of corruption by Chaos. The factions within the mechanicum which were more progressive in outlook chafed against these restrictions and sided with Horus, for the most part. Since Horus lost, the Mechanicus that remained became more entrenched and dogmatic, and is now very suspicious of anything new. There's quite a bit of new technology development going on within the Eye of Terror though.

The thing I think you may be missing is that 40k is not a science fiction setting. It's a medieval fantasy setting in space. Magic, daemons and monsters are real. That will necessarily change the nature of the society.

Arriving on a new world with scientists and engineers doesn't mean they you've got any 5,000 years later, once their descendents have all died out, your civilisation has been cut off by warp storms and your STC AI has succumbed to Daemonic possession and started building killer robots to wipe you out.

Rogue Trader and STCs: I won't argue the Rogue Trader fluff, but I'm pretty sure it was the old Fluff Bible GW put together to get things semi-consistent that said STC stood for two things: Standard Template Construct, which was a standardized design modified for available resources that the computer spit out, and Standard Template Constructor, which built the **** things itself (usually when attached to standardized construction facilities). Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the Fluff Bible anymore, or I'd cite chapter and verse (or admit I'm wrong, whichever). That's one of the reasons the AdMech has such a thing for a complete, fully functioning STC: not only would it have stores of all the blueprints, but they might be able to recover manufacturing technology as well.

The Great Diaspora and the Dark Age of Technology: I'm not talking about things being "Oh, we're colonizing, we better stop researching and start training phone repairmen," it's a gradual shift forced by manpower necessities as the age goes on. Sure, the growth was "explosive," but diminishing returns set in very quickly in a situation like this. Had the warp storms not happened, simple logistics and social shifts would have stopped the expansion of humanity anyway. As far as technology, advancement rates started high, declined, and would have picked back up after the colonization phase as manpower requirements realigned back to advancement from maintenance, but by that time the colonies were shut off, and you didn't have enough experts in any given field on any given planet to allow technological advancement in any meaningful form. Remember, knowledge has advanced so much that you probably wouldn't have guys with Bachelors degrees in Biochemistry anymore, you'd have guys with Bachelors in virii or hemoglobin or whatever. Think the fragmentation in medical specialties today, tack on another 10,000 years of advancement, and spread that knowledge fragmentation over the whole of human science. There's simply too much for any one person to know about broad subjects.

Innovation: Sure, you'd have process innovation (especially on manufacturing worlds), and a good deal of "We're out of parts, how can we make do" type things, but there wouldn't be any advanced science happening at all. So science would broaden (new ways of doing the same things, maybe more efficiently, but likely not; see for example steam-powered hovercars on some worlds), but not deepen.

Not buggaring up existing systems: I was talking about things like software development here. If you've got a couple of computers on the planet, and they run everything from the planetary water system to the traffic lights, do you really want to go from XPSP3, which you know works a good chunk of the time, to Vista, which you're not sure about?

Hereteks: I thought we were talking about societal shifts across planets and the Imperium at large, and therefore the average citizen/population, not single outliers in the system. If you want to discuss what makes individual heretics tick, that's an entirely different topic.

One thing to keep in mind is that, although the Empire is totalitarian, not every world is. Yes, there is a planetary governor that is nominally responsible to the Empire, mostly to ensure the world's tribute (in money, goods, and people ... especially psykers for the Black Ships) is paid promptly. Other than that, most planets have a different government. Some worlds might have a feudal system, others a representative democracy, others an oligarchy, etc. (Feudal worlds, hive world, agri-worlds, etc) Consider it like Earth, if the UN received taxes from each member nation, and had a standing army consisting of troops from each nation. Each nation is held accountable by the UN, but as long as they don't make waves (and pay their taxes) the nation is free to govern themselves. Of course, this is a very loose analogy, but the idea stands. Thus, not every (and probably not most) common Imperial citizens feel as downtrodden or as dissastisfied with their lot in life as you might think. Most dissent and rebellion that occurs is focused on the Local government, not the Imperial government. As long as the Empire gets its production quotas and tithes, it could care less whether a government was feudal or monarchial. Unless personal politics gets involved, or production gets disrupted, the Empire is simply too large to care who pays it, as long as they are paid. (I'm ignoring heresy and xenos/chaos influence et al, of course, which also warrant attention of a different sort.) So again, a rebellion might occur on a planet, but more likely a popular revolution to change the political structure of the planetary government ... rather than the planet rebelling against the Empire.

One of the things I have always liked about 4OK lore is that the human race has peaked, they had achieved a 'clean' utopian future and effectively discovered and researched everything (hence STCs were possible, a machine that can give you blueprints to build anything out of anything)

Then they suffered four waves of total war, as the Stone Men rebelled against the Golden Men and overthrew them, The Iron Men attacked and attempted to overthrow the Stone Men, then the age of strife where warp storms cut off near every colony, mutation and more importantly psykers begin appearing on every single human world. Then finally the Horus Heresy.

This is war across every facet of civilization. There are no frontlines, no hiding places as effectively 4 massive conflicts take place across the whole of human society. This is not even mentioning xenos and daemonic denizens waiting for their chance to snack on colonists. By this point the way of the gun is paramount. You certainly want to know how to make better guns, and other related products of water and they have been created. There is no better gun than the humble lasgun within these parameters, its light, reliable, works in all conditions, can be recharged through sunlight (or even in a campfire). Again the Leman Russ is the most reliable tank ever built. You can run it on promethium, you can run it on wood, you can probably run it off of fruit juice. Within terms of relaibilty the Imperium is highly advanced, and with such a vast Empire this is the paramount concern.

Its not like the Imperium is primitive, but it knows it was better in the past and understood more in the past. Progress has been made in the intervening millenia but at such a creeping amount. Space marines have gained a chest plate to cover up their exposed cabling, anti-grav technology is more widely avaiable than before the heresy (to marines). But there is always the risk with progress that it unleashes the horrors of the past, be they robot killers, genetically engineered super soldiers, etc. For every innovation there is someone checking that it all measures up and is safe, if it does not then you die as a heretic, rather than merely going back to the drawing board. Would you want to innovate or push at the boundaries especially when the state is so large and can punish you so severely?

Ultimately its so far in the future, with such outlandish concepts and a mindboggling scale that frankly I can readily suspend my disbelief and buy into it. Sure its just about the darkest future vision there is but thats half the fun.