I was wondering if anyone was using the idea that some of the expected truths of the imperium have no factual basis, or a different factual basis than expected. Everybody thinks X, but actually Y is the truth.

Something along the lines like the emperor having nothing to do with keeping warp travel safe, instead its <something else>

The emperor isn't actually dead, he's in hiding on some backwater world.

There are friendly warp entities that can be helpful, but would cause too much of a headache if this was known.

Squats are secretly pulling the strings of the inquisition.

Or things that used to be canon, like discovering a IMperial Guard regiment of beastmen?

I suppose some of these ideas might be a part of the Radicals Handbook, but I'm wondering if anyone has used ideas like these in play. You'd have to make the discovery of the "truth" something the PCs could stumble upon in the course of their investigation.

Thoughts?

I once ran a campaign that heavily suggested that both the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Inquisition had a more than comfortable contact with the Necrons and their star gods. Does that count?

The Imperium is a fantasticly ancient civilisation that's been around an incredibly long time, something writers of the 40k literature seem to gloss over that fact by sticking to the contemporary and immediate events. Even with 40,000 years of human civiliastation and colonisation of the galaxy, its gone through a myriad of changes, but by my guess they're done on a scale compared to earth civilisations of about 10 times longer. By that I mean drastic upheaval and change only seems to have happened about 10x longer on a time line compared to an ancient civilisation's own developments.

Look how long the Egyptian pharonic era lasted, about 3000 years or so from any kind of tangible emergence and eventual decline, same with ancient China which was roughly the same, give or take a few centuries, yet in the Imperium of man they have entire eras running for 10,000 years before anything major changes to a different era.

What intrigues me as a GM is all the little nuances that happen during an era, they might have not been as drastic as 10's of thousands of drooling mutant marines running around kicking the poop out of people, but for every one of those, there have probably been a hundred other events which have eventually accumulated over time to have a massive effect on society at large, for better or worse. If you where to gloss over the events of just the last century which was marked by two world wars and dozens of smaller conflicts and how they affected society to the point where we are now, combining massive industrialisation and technology that rolled off into common use of the civilian sector. All the things we sometimes take for granted have their roots in massive social upheaval, quite a bit of medical and comms technology comes out of them. For awhile I ran a network that fell off the back of the old US Starwars program using the target acquisition of that to hit moving targets with RF, sure it could shoot down an ICBM but we just used it to lock onto a user sitting on a train travelling at 90km/h that just wanted a strong, uninteruptable mobile broadband signal and smooth transition between coverage zones. There's a ton of stuff out there I've used in the way of radar systems that 'bend' the normal rules of how most people think they can work too, but I can't talk about them

But if you asked me to build you a 4 sided pyramid roughly the size of 6 city blocks with nothing more than string, bronze chisels, boats, no wheel, no paper, several 100,000 dumb arses that are lucky to be able to count to 10 and a few million tons of rock... we're gunna be pretty much screwed.

That art is forgotten in as little as 2000 years it would seem

Yet in the 40k universe, 2000 years and you're lucky to see more than a couple of skirmishes and some gronk in the Ad-Mech managing to forget how to build a titan or something.

Literature survivng more than a couple of centuries in some kind of media format without some other sucession of Scribe-gronk copyists managing to butcher it completely in 10,000 years where Emperor John C Rist saves the squirrels and robs from the meerkats to feed the poor nuts, is entirely plausible. It ceases to be relevant to modern society 10,000 years later and dumped from the curiculum of learning, unless of course it gets sent out to some bumhole backwater as the holy emperors bible of good things, thus infecting entire systems for 1000s of years with what is technically 'heresy' because what they believe about the emperor is completely WRONG! Heck, they've probably even spelt his name wrong!

Then some arsehole from the inquisition rolls up, takes one look and burns them all.

IMO the Imperium for that last reason alone is probably the most dysfunctional thing ever, to call it a civilisation might be very generous, the only reason its probably still around is that its full of dumb humans that mostly wiped out everyone else on the simple fact that they where not like the people in the village/town/city/country/planet that they're from, with simple ignorance and fear being the only thing that combines them together.

Its also why I'll be using a lot of 'Temple Tendancy' kind of 'bad guys' in my games. They're just like the acolytes, but they're 'wrong'

idon't know how fmiliar u are with early 40K material but the fluff was really great. u alluded to IG beastmen regiments which were truly once a part of canon. i personally like the 'Imperiums Big Lies' as u call them. they are the real stunners as opposed to going with partyline canon all the time..xenos, mutants, heretics and psykers.

one of my faves can be found in the Lost and the Damned..the concept of a new Emperor being born. the Star Child.. The secret group of the Illumanti waiting for its birth and second coming of the New Man.

also surrounding that is the Sensei..the Emperors descendants.Champions of the Star Child. genetically similar to Him. many of the them who are unaware they carry his genes but are given various superhuman gifts.

lol...while Squats are def. in my campaign (i'm old skool like that). they def. aren't the secret string pullers of the INQ. hmmmm...but maybe something or someone should be. the Squats were great BECAUSE they were anti-canon within canon. they recognized technology for what it really was. nothing to be worshipped but just used. i had to keep them for that destabilizing influence alone.

the Mechanicus are a shady bunch. and i've had some fun with them. instead of them being a crazy fanatical bunch that look to the past...they secretly have been looking to the future controlling the flow of technology, restricting it for their own purposes. Tech Heretics are not snatched away to be tortured and executed but inducted into and made a part of the AM. they are bringing deeper knowledge and enlightenment into the fold of the Machine God. i've taken full advantage of their secretness, canon that alludes to keeping the most dangrous and lethal creations to themselves. i've used the concept that technology isn't lost. the AM likes the hold the have on the Imperium and wish to maintain that.

there are some main concepts in 40K which can be found in Dune. i had created a few new career options and currently use the concepts of the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood, the Mentats, the Swordmasters of Ginaz etc. as they fit in well with 40K and add an extra dimension of intrigue and layering between more factions. the Bene Gesserit and the Sororitas are at odds while the Ecclesiarchy are wary but see benefit to the Sisterhood. the Mentats and the AM have their issues.

if u are at all familiar with Dune...u will recall that the Gesserits wanted to create the Kwisatz Haderach, the universes superbeing. they had done so from a highly selective breeding program. in my rehash, it was they that had created the Emperor. a secret only they and the Emperor are aware of. one of my PCs plays a Bene Gesserit and she's bursting at the seems to let this out to the rest of the warband. she has all manners of capabilities which must be worked in secret according to the Sisterhoods laws. lest the universe descend on them and destroy them.

i want something really cunning for the Ecclesiarchy though. any thoughts?

the liegekiller said:

Yeah i've statted up the Missionaria Protectiva and its directives, which are an inner circle of the Sisters weaving influence through the entire Imperium for the other purposes you've mentioned in creating another god emperor on the demise of the golden throne.

Its the kind of thing that gets Acolytes killed quicker than cyanide into a jugular vein, so they're just caught up in the machinations of the MP vs the Illuminati and all the rest

How about something nice and heretical, like: Far from protecting humanity, the Emperor's warp beacon is actually what forces of Chaos follow to find their way out of the Warp and into reality? Chaos might not be able to find humanity at all, if it weren't for that great neon sign flashing "Over here!"

Or that the Emperor is actually being held *prisoner* on the Golden Throne.

I think the Temple Tendency from Disciples of the Dark Gods presents a great tool for illuminating "Lies of the Imperium," since they're bad guys with actual historical truth on their side. We're all heretics, here!

Nothing like a good conspiracy to have some poor acolyte questioning everything they've ever heard.

The Imperium doesn't lie.

if you want lies just look at certain worlds in the imperium...some use xenos actual aliens to produce and trade materials although wait papa smurf i thought all xeno were bloodsucking inhuman killers. Just look at rogue traders they do heretical stuff all the time and lie constantly to imperial authorities about what they do...

Vaeron said:

yessss.....now that IS delicious. devious and utterly perfect for the PC sucker punch.

The most obvious one is: The Emperor is not, in fact, a God and the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition and the entire Imperial Creed are based a belief system that the Emperor himself denounced.

yeah i like that one the best

I'm liking the emperors neon sign theory

I can just imagine a group of determined acolytes rushing off to Terra to pull the plug

If you're looking for another good Ecclesiarchy conspiracy, I was always fond of one of the variants of the Star Child stories: The Emperour never really dies, he just reincarnates. However, the Golden Throne is keeping him from dying, and thus keeping him from reincarnating. If he were freed from the Throne, his soul would close the Eye of Terror, reincarnate, and reestablish the Imperium.

Another good one would be that the Throne has succeeded not only in keeping the Emperour alive, but allowing him to regenerate his body. However, the Ecclesiarch and a few key Cardinals know of the Emperour's views on the Imperial Cult ("I'm not a god, there are not such things as gods, religion is a crutch," etc.), and have decided that an entombed corpse god is a lot better for their power base than a live mobile atheist Emperour, and so keep him entombed in the Throne's stasis chamber and propogate the party line. Now for the kicker (and the plot hook): every power in the Universe is suckered in, with the sole exception of Tzeentch , who the Emperour asked to help. The Great Changer agreed to help on two condition: that he forgive Magnus and rescind the Council of Nikkea's prohibition against sorcery. After a thousand years, the Emperour has finally accepted the bargain, and the first inkling anyone has that anything has happened is that the Thousand Sons, repainted into their pre-Heresy legion colours, boil out of the Eye, overwhelm Cadia's defenses... and just occupy the planet rather than destroying everything. The =I= gets reports of Cadia's fall, and the Acolytes are mobilized as the closest forces. They are to infiltrate Cadia and assess military weaknesses to relay to the Space Wolves, who are to take the planet back... You know what? I like this, and may run it next time I host a game.

Tyraxus said:

i'm rather fond of the Star Child scenario my ownself as i posted earlier

the other one is very nice. but while i'm all for kicking canon in the cojones (i'm a radical like that) i personally have to stop short of having the Emperor side with Tzeentch on this. doesn't seem in his nature to do so...though he may find some elements of the Thousand Sons receptive to his advances. can there be any 'good' Astartes Horus Heretics left after so long in the Warp? can there be Redemption in the Warp?

i do like the Ecclesiarchy angle very much. i think u've just handed me something there.

cheers

Eh, I went with Tzeentch because as the Lord of Sorcery he'd be the most likelty the Emperor could contact consistently and effectively, and as the Changer of Ways, he'd be the most likely to actually agree to help the "corpse god" because he knows the resulting civil war would destablize the galaxy, expanding his power base. The Thousand Sons complete the package, because Magnus always saw himself as a loyal son of the Emperour, and the mentality of the Primarchs filtered down through the ranks of their legions, so of the Traitor legions, they'd be the most likely to jump at the chance for redemption.

It's not so much as the Emperour siding with Tzeentch or vice versa, it's more of an "allies of necessity" kind of thing where each leader thinks he can take the other one at the end of the fight. Kinda like the Allies and Russians during WWII.

Glad you like the Ecclesiarchy angle. When I first started getting into 40k, that's actually how I thought the Ecclesiarchy worked (imprisoning a healthy Emperor) until someone pointed out the backstory fluff.

Tyraxus said:

That is such a blatant lie. Probably concocted by the C'Tan known as the deceiver. Sounds like just the thing he/she/it would say.

There is a secret faction within the Inquisition that has been dealing with a Slaaneshi daemon world to get a self-perpetuating psychic parasite and infect the entire Imperium. Once they finish that, they can use it to link all of humanity in one giant gestalt and use it to psychically destroy the Eye, and the Chaos gods.

As for the Emperor/Tzeentch collaboration: that's what Tzeentch wants you to think! He's been manipulating the entire thing all along, and the past 48 millennia have been proceeding to his plan!

im sorry but thats to cliche its more believable for tzceetch to be a good guy

ThenDoctor said:

Ah, yes, it is more belivable... just as planed!

Okay... heresy time!

It's actually Horus on the Golden Throne, serving eternal pennance via torture, from the very throne he aspired to claim.

The story would go one of two ways. One, that Horus actually killed the Emperor, but was mortally wounded in the process. The other that the first to rush to the Emperor's side only found Horus, delirious and near death, mumbling that the Emperor had "ascended" (to account for the literal godhead of the Emperor from the Temple Tendency).

With nobody to run the Atronomicon from the Golden Throne, and with a severe degree of malice towards Horus, the survivors realized that Horus was the only soul powerful enough to power the astronomicon indefinately, turning his chaos-infused trechary into Humanity's last hope.

So to this day, he sits, in agony, tapped like some bizzare battery, as thousands of psykers are sacrificed to power the Golden Throne, his own guilded cage, giving him precisely what he desired, and yet torturing him ever moment of his existence far more than imaginable.

I dunno, there is something grim, vicious, and yet karmically poignant to that idea...

I like the notion of Horus being seated upon the golden throne. Along the same lines, I've been running my games under the assumption that the Astronomican dosen't make warp travel any safer, just easier, providing you are heading directly towards or directly away from Sol.

Here's one: There are no STCs and there never were. It's just a myth, an imaginary supertechnology concocted from old legends and magical thinking from before the Dark Age of Technology. It's a holy grail to aspire to, and the higher ups within the Machine Cult know this. They're looking for the tech-priests who are clever enough to figure this out for themselves.

Much Imperial technology is xenotech. A lot of commonly used technology within the Imperium was originaly designed by aliens and aquired durring the early days of interstellar travel by human merchants and diplomats. The scientific theories that make Warp travel and the Navigator Gene possible were also of alien origin. This also includes some of the technology that makes the Space Marines possible.

The Emperor was a rogue Eldar. Humanity could never produce a psyker of such power, but an ambitious Eldar who turned his back in the Aspect Path could rise to that level. He fled from his craftworld and eventualy came to Earth, and seeing a young species he could mold, the rogue Eldar set about using his power to create what would become the Imperium. The rogue Eldar had some grand design in mind, but Horus discovered his ruse and betrayed the Emporor for the sake of humanity at large. The notion that Horus had fallen to chaos was propaganda. The traitor legions originaly sought to free the young Imperium from the rule of a manupulative alien, and eventualy turned to chaos in an act of despiration. Their goal is still to free the Imperium from alien influances. When the Eldar Emperor was placed upon the Golden Throne his true itentity was discovered, but by then it was too late. The Ordo Xenos was born out of a desire to keep the Imperium free from further alien influance.

TheFlatline said:

This is great! (as is the "emperor is an eldar" one).

The "emperor as eldar" also might interestingly explain why the praetorians have eldar helmets

Another one:

The Emperor is actually Q'ah, one of the last Old Ones whom the Hrud worship as a god and who left them 500 000 years ago to oversee some great project. See "Xenology" for details.

Maybe not exactly a lie, but delicious irony nonetheless. The three internal enemies of the Imperium are Witch, Mutant and Heretic. The three most worshipped individuals of the Imperial Creed are the Emperor (a witch), Sanguinius (a mutant) and Saint Sebastian Thor (a heretic, member of Confederation of Light who rebelled against the word of rightfully appointed Ecclesiarch).

the imperiums like this "do as we say not as we do"

Alasseo said:

Hello.........I hear my name being called.

The tzeentch stuff isnt so far fetched one of the aspects of tzeetch is actually...."hope". Alos the Chaos gods are going to have to wake up and smell the coffee at some point and realise that iof the Tyranids or Necrons won they would be stuffed. The only logical step is to join the imperium as an ally of convenience.

Or dare I raise the old chestnut of the Tau.........a deliberately engineered race that was raised from neanderthal obscurity by the eldar.

Or one of the Eldar godesses didnt die.........she was captured and enslaved by Nurgle. Ever wonder why everyone doesnt drop dead in 30 secs....surely the sign of a truely excellent disease in Nurgles eyes maybe its this lass -

see some old stuff on wikipedia - Isha, the Eldar goddess of healing. Nurgle wrested her away from Slaanesh, saving her from destruction, but he dotes over her as only a god of disease can: by infecting her with diseases. Isha responds by curing herself and whilst he is busy working, Isha takes advantage of his distraction to instruct mortals on how to rid themselves of Nurgle's poxes.

and also.............what about all those disappearing Primarchs? what are they all up to?