Totally agree with the OP. How can Cloaking work when a ship is Ioned? All of it's electrical devices stop functioning for a time. It just makes sense..

And how did you hit something you couldn't see or detect? How are you even able to target it? That makes no sense.

As for your other suggestions...negative...if those went through then I would expect a cheaper phantom...the thing completely relies on it's ability to not get shot to survive...you hit it and it had problems...big problems...there are plenty of ways to take a phantom down...utilize those.

Because Space ship have mass detectors and gravity field detectors, so they know something is there.

I not saying there aren't counters for it. But when you look at it point wise, and even Alex Davy stated it. He fells the ship is overpowered, but they will not release errata. They will fix it with upgrades for other ships.

Anyway were both off topic. This is about whether ion's should stop cloaking, which I totally agree with. Since FFG won't fix the cards, they may fix the Ion Results to help balance the Phantom.

Last off topic thing: There is no way a 35-40 point, ship should beat something that cost 60 points, every time without fail in the game. Based on a points cost it should only win a little less then 3rd of the time. Since it does it means by nature it's unbalanced.

I think it's unfair that <x> points of <a ship I hate> can routinely beat <y> points of <a ship I love> therefore, it's OP.

Just because loads of other players have figured out a way to defeat it does not mean that I need to adapt my playing style.

Effectively immediately, the entire game will be reset to only the Core set, and even that is up for debate as being OP in some way.

Totally agree with the OP. How can Cloaking work when a ship is Ioned? All of it's electrical devices stop functioning for a time. It just makes sense..

And how did you hit something you couldn't see or detect? How are you even able to target it? That makes no sense.

As for your other suggestions...negative...if those went through then I would expect a cheaper phantom...the thing completely relies on it's ability to not get shot to survive...you hit it and it had problems...big problems...there are plenty of ways to take a phantom down...utilize those.

while I agree on the counters part, I heavily disagree on the "relies on not getting shot to survive" when it comes to Whisper

4 dice + focus + w.e else makes it stupid durable, no matter how fickle said dice are

Sure, it's not as dominating as the forums sometimes make it out to be, but I will be calling bull on anyone who calls whisper a glass cannon because she sure as hell isn't unless you work around ACD. The generics, though, they're very class cannon and difficult to utilize, but oh so satisfying when you make them work.

Totally agree with the OP. How can Cloaking work when a ship is Ioned? All of it's electrical devices stop functioning for a time. It just makes sense..

And how did you hit something you couldn't see or detect? How are you even able to target it? That makes no sense.

As for your other suggestions...negative...if those went through then I would expect a cheaper phantom...the thing completely relies on it's ability to not get shot to survive...you hit it and it had problems...big problems...there are plenty of ways to take a phantom down...utilize those.

Because Space ship have mass detectors and gravity field detectors, so they know something is there.

I not saying there aren't counters for it. But when you look at it point wise, and even Alex Davy stated it. He fells the ship is overpowered, but they will not release errata. They will fix it with upgrades for other ships.

Anyway were both off topic. This is about whether ion's should stop cloaking, which I totally agree with. Since FFG won't fix the cards, they may fix the Ion Results to help balance the Phantom.

Last off topic thing: There is no way a 35-40 point, ship should beat something that cost 60 points, every time without fail in the game. Based on a points cost it should only win a little less then 3rd of the time. Since it does it means by nature it's unbalanced.

Alex Davy said no such thing, other than the no errata part.

Phantoms that are not specifically Whisper with VI and ACD tend to attack only every other round, and you want them to do that with unmodified dice all the time?

A tie fighter (not even an interceptor) without a 5 straight, one less agility and one more attack that only shoots unmodified every other turn should cost far less than 25.

Oh and you know what else makes sense for Ion weapons, ignoring or completely disabling your shields, but they don't do that either.

I have a couple of issues with all of this:

There would be no points reduction. All phantoms are undercosted as it is now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying!

Right now one Whisper can take down 5 Z's by itself every time!. Not a fair list!

Saying someone is lying because this don't agree is a bit strong, don't you think?

Because Space ship have mass detectors and gravity field detectors, so they know something is there.

I not saying there aren't counters for it. But when you look at it point wise, and even Alex Davy stated it. He fells the ship is overpowered, but they will not release errata. They will fix it with upgrades for other ships.

Anyway were both off topic. This is about whether ion's should stop cloaking, which I totally agree with. Since FFG won't fix the cards, they may fix the Ion Results to help balance the Phantom.

Last off topic thing: There is no way a 35-40 point, ship should beat something that cost 60 points, every time without fail in the game. Based on a points cost it should only win a little less then 3rd of the time. Since it does it means by nature it's unbalanced.

I believe this is a fool's quest. Yes every ship has points assigned to it. Also those points are an approximation of it's overall strength in combat. This looks at abilities, attack, defense, actions, possible upgrades, etc.

However because of so many upgrades and abilities there will always be synergies that makes squad better or even worse. There is no such thing as a perfect balance. Some ships will always die to others just measuring points and points alone. But in a well built squad, looking at the abilities and how they work together there are counters and things/squads can balance well though not always.

Saying in a vacuum that an equal number of points of Phantoms kills Z-95's without looking at anything else ignores a big part of this game. That's the same argument regarding the Blaster Turret and Dark Curse.

I have a couple of issues with all of this:

There would be no points reduction. All phantoms are undercosted as it is now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying!

Right now one Whisper can take down 5 Z's by itself every time!. Not a fair list!

Saying someone is lying because this don't agree is a bit strong, don't you think?

Totally agree with the OP. How can Cloaking work when a ship is Ioned? All of it's electrical devices stop functioning for a time. It just makes sense..

And how did you hit something you couldn't see or detect? How are you even able to target it? That makes no sense.

As for your other suggestions...negative...if those went through then I would expect a cheaper phantom...the thing completely relies on it's ability to not get shot to survive...you hit it and it had problems...big problems...there are plenty of ways to take a phantom down...utilize those.

Because Space ship have mass detectors and gravity field detectors, so they know something is there.

I not saying there aren't counters for it. But when you look at it point wise, and even Alex Davy stated it. He fells the ship is overpowered, but they will not release errata. They will fix it with upgrades for other ships.

Anyway were both off topic. This is about whether ion's should stop cloaking, which I totally agree with. Since FFG won't fix the cards, they may fix the Ion Results to help balance the Phantom.

Last off topic thing: There is no way a 35-40 point, ship should beat something that cost 60 points, every time without fail in the game. Based on a points cost it should only win a little less then 3rd of the time. Since it does it means by nature it's unbalanced.

I believe this is a fool's quest. Yes every ship has points assigned to it. Also those points are an approximation of it's overall strength in combat. This looks at abilities, attack, defense, actions, possible upgrades, etc.

However because of so many upgrades and abilities there will always be synergies that makes squad better or even worse. There is no such thing as a perfect balance. Some ships will always die to others just measuring points and points alone. But in a well built squad, looking at the abilities and how they work together there are counters and things/squads can balance well though not always.

Saying in a vacuum that an equal number of points of Phantoms kills Z-95's without looking at anything else ignores a big part of this game. That's the same argument regarding the Blaster Turret and Dark Curse.

I could agree with what your saying, but the Phantom beat all ships that haven't made a specific counter for it. Which unbalances the game drastically.

Tell me one other ship at 40 pts that beats 60 points of enemies consistently. There are none. Phat han comes close, but he he's not 35-40 points.

I have stopped playing my 3 phantom list and Phantoms in general. Frankly when I get ahead everyone quits because they know they have no hope and it has become boring, unless someone plays something to counter me with High PS, they have no chance. The phantom breaks to many base rules in the game. 4 attack, 4 Defense, Free evades, Extra move action without costing an action (Decloak), systems slot, crew member. One of these things is not to bad, but all of them together unbalances the ship. We all know it.

What I don't understand is why so many deny it. Just accept it's unbalanced as you know it is and then when people state it you won't be so angry about it.

FFG will keep releasing upgrades to help fight it, but they won't help that much. Unless they specifically focus on it.

So yes when a phantom is Ioned it should not be able to cloak. That will help balance it.

5 x HWK-290 w/Blaster Turret vrs 1 x Dark Curse w/Stealth.

That's 19 points against 100 points.

So just accept your reasoning because "everyone" knows it's the case?

The very fact that quite a few of us disagree is proof that "everyone" isn't in agreement with you...

Why don't you directly refute the points as opposed to just trying to force us to accept your view based on what you think "everyone" thinks.

Stress, ion, high PS, overlapping fields of fire, turrets...all these things can counter the phantom well...

I have found complaining makes you more susceptible to it's tricks though...

EDIT: this is directed at eagles last comment #clarification

Last off topic thing: There is no way a 35-40 point, ship should beat something that cost 60 points, every time without fail in the game. Based on a points cost it should only win a little less then 3rd of the time. Since it does it means by nature it's unbalanced.

I think you're being a little hyperbolic here, don't you? I challenge you to find any match-up in this game that does anything "every time, without fail."

Last off topic thing: There is no way a 35-40 point, ship should beat something that cost 60 points, every time without fail in the game. Based on a points cost it should only win a little less then 3rd of the time. Since it does it means by nature it's unbalanced.

I think you're being a little hyperbolic here, don't you? I challenge you to find any match-up in this game that does anything "every time, without fail."

^

this all the **** way

(except regarding turrets until scientists discover the 361st degree)

What I don't understand is why so many deny it. Just accept it's unbalanced as you know it is and then when people state it you won't be so angry about it.

Just accept that you're wrong about the Phantom and you won't get so angry about it.

I think Phantoms need some new over powered cards their not auto winning like they used to give us some Phantom aces box's more pilots and a title card that helps mitigate stress and blocking.

More on topic sure i can see the logic behind op's reasoning that ion would ruin a stealth device but going by that logic it should ruin a ships shields, engine, any droid crews, secondary weapons, life support and fry pilots. Really if your ship gets ion'ed it should just be taken off the board. If your space fighter has all of its electrical systems destroyed its not like your going to be able to get out and fix them like you would change the spare tire on your car.

In the starwars universe Ion weapons just disable technology and in the old x-wing games they would just remove shields and then disable ships.

X-wings supposed to be a simple game I think if you want more in depth space combat you have to look to the rpg's or another game system really. X-wing does not track inertia or use newton physics either should we try and model these in X-wing as well?

I think were are just going to have to put up with x-wing more friendly and forgiving version of ion weapons.

Stress already counters cloaking by preventing the ACD from firing. Blocking prevents them from using a cloak action if they don't have ACD. Ion is also already a counter because then you know exactly where they will be if you block of decloaking options, which means you can set up a kill. In the end, 4 green dice is still just green dice, and getting the phantom into multiple arcs will make it dead.

^This^

Doesn't having an Ion token on a cloaked ship mean it can't decloak, making more predictable and unable to attack that round? Why would Ion effects need to be worse than that?

And ^This^

Actually I had a decent time dealing with phantoms with both the Ion and the stress. So no real need to nerf the cloak. Jsut remeber stress kills cloak.

Here is a squad list which shut down the phantom and decimated a decimator in a battle report.

I think it's unfair that <x> points of <a ship I hate> can routinely beat <y> points of <a ship I love> therefore, it's OP.

Just because loads of other players have figured out a way to defeat it does not mean that I need to adapt my playing style.

Effectively immediately, the entire game will be reset to only the Core set, and even that is up for debate as being OP in some way.

I motion to enact this idea but keep the Defender and halve its points! Its too cool to not be in the imperial arsenal from the get go and its awesomeness alone should carry it to victory in every game.

Everyone knows this! So that is how it should be! If you dont know this you need to stop lying to yourself and just accept the fact that it is true. Everyone knows this!

The problem with TIE phantoms isn't that they're not vulnerable enough to their counters, such as Ion Cannon Turret, its that they're not vulnerable enough to things that aren't their direct counter. If you want to change the phantom, you need to look at changing it so that it is easier to counter with good flying, not good list building. Rock-paper-scissors is a terrible, poorly balanced game; don't model X-wing off it.

The problem with TIE phantoms isn't that they're not vulnerable enough to their counters, such as Ion Cannon Turret, its that they're not vulnerable enough to things that aren't their direct counter. If you want to change the phantom, you need to look at changing it so that it is easier to counter with good flying, not good list building. Rock-paper-scissors is a terrible, poorly balanced game; don't model X-wing off it.

So you have to plan for the possibility of facing them? I fail to see an issue with this...you plan for them as you plan for the falcon, the agressor....or really any other ship you might plan on facing.

Working in an ion cannon or 2, a turret, or a few ways to stress are just useful to have in general, they tend to work on most things...not just the phantom and as I recall were all used fairly often even before the phantom. There is nothing wrong with having to plan for certain classes of ships...this was always a part of the game and I havent been able to understand why people think its, all of a sudden, such a big problem now. You will always need to plan for what you think you will face.

You arent going to be able to straight outfly a phantom...its designed to be EXTREMELY manuverable....you can shut that manuverability down though...and easily enough, its also designed to crumple once you get a few shots off at it. 4 green dice fail...constantly. The counters for it arent expensive and, as stated above, tend to work against many other things. There are a plethora of options...or does no one ever plan on taking ion or stress or turrets or high PS unless they think a phantom might be around...are people not going to try to cover several arcs of fire because there isnt a phantom around?

These were things people were taking and working with already...I know I was (except Ion...I need force my self to use that more often.) The phantom didnt change any of that...the main thing it did was make PS really matter.

While whisper no longer scares me and I'm thankful that she forced me to invent the stress wing, I do agree with krae.

The phantom is stupid difficult to damage through four green dice. This is no problem normally (sigmas Are a risky blast to play for this reason) but ACD Obviously skews things.

At the same time though, I understand why it exists (turrets)