The X isn't a super agile, but it was supposed to agile enough to take on any fighter and have a chance, combined with its firepower and resilience. How does its current state reflect this? The E has more green dice, more actions and more slots for upgrade potential. The X cannot tread on the E Wings toes any more than it can on the Bs at this point..

I agree that a red dice is probably worth more than 1-2 points. Doesn't mean I think its unthematic and as has been said, there are other ways to boost the X Wings offence which are around that value.

The E-wing was the direct upgrade/successor to the X-wing, so it should be flat-out better in every way (barring cost). The problem remains with the B-wings being too cost effective.

Or the X being without a role or identity. Whatever the reason, I dont think the B is too effective, I just think it IS cost effective in a way that the X and E arent at this point. I think the B reflects what it is supposed to do, I dont have a problem with it really.

As has been discussed at great length now, the X doesnt offer anything unique for its role or points that the B doesnt do better at the moment and I dont think it is representative of what the X Wing was supposed to be in the movies and what little lore I am aware of. The X is my favorite ship and I still fly it, but it doesnt have the punch that it needs.

OTOH the generic E is too many points for what it offers (Named E Wing pilots maybe less so). The E is better than the X just comparing its stats, dial and actions. I havent seen an E Wing in any fluff to base my assumptions of how good it should be, but it does appear to be better than the X Wing in most ways, though not a huge improvement.

If there's a problem with the X wing, it's that it costs too much to not have a mobility action. I absolutely think the unique X wings are fine, but the genetic pilots need a push. The durability between an X wing and a B wing is quite similar. They both take an average of 2-3 three dice shots to clear. Now, there are outliers, obviously. We have all chipped away at that B wings shields round after round as it fires back at us and grins. We have also all seen X wings crippled by a Range 1 interceptor or phantom. But these are the outliers. Based on the average, the B wing has a small edge, but they are quite similar. Where the B wing shines is it's barrel roll and it's system slot. With the ability to roll and perform all 1 speed maneuvers, the B wing wins out on maneuverability. And with a system slot, the B wing becomes more versatile and often more threatening. The X wing has the astromech, however, which gives it a lot of defensive options and the ability to assign stress at will. These are potent abilities, but the X wing suffers among asteroids due to its dial and lack of advanced sensors and can't always match the damage output on the B wing due to its lack of FCS. For one point, the B wing earns a slower but generally better dial and barrel roll, and for a few more points, it can fill a powerful upgrade slot that is unavailable to the X wing.

If the X wing had barrel roll, then the difference between it and the B wing wouldn't be so wide for that one point. Or if it had a system slot, it could improve a lot. How about astromechs that give one if those? A zero/one point astro that grants barrel roll without stress, or a zero/one point astro that grants a system. They would both help the ship out, they'd be mutually exclusive, and they could also help our old pal, the Y wing. And hey, it could help the E wing be a little more unique in that it would be the only ship that can load two system upgrades, if you give up your astromech.

There's where the issue with fixing or rebalancing an old ship comes in. There must be a trade off somewhere. Most named X wing pilots are fine, but the ship in general and especially the generics could use just a little nudge in the right direction. The issue isn't nearly as bad as the quite obviously overpriced TIE Advanced, which is getting a radical rebalance to make up for its cost. That's all the X wing needs, a little nudge to lessen the difference that one point makes on the B wing.

Not as standard, but the example you are quoting is not standard. You have to add upgrades which cost points and opportunity to achieve this. Simply adding BR won't make an X Wing like an interceptor, as has already been said.

By the same token I could argue that it's wrong for an interceptor to have as many HP as an X Wing, or shields, because they never did in the lore. But by the rules of the game, you can do this and I don't have a problem with it, you have to pay for it.

The X isn't a super agile, but it was supposed to agile enough to take on any fighter and have a chance, combined with its firepower and resilience. How does its current state reflect this? The E has more green dice, more actions and more slots for upgrade potential. The X cannot tread on the E Wings toes any more than it can on the Bs at this point..

I agree that a red dice is probably worth more than 1-2 points. Doesn't mean I think its unthematic and as has been said, there are other ways to boost the X Wings offence which are around that value.

The Royal Guard Interceptor did have Shields so that's not going against the lore to equip them with some. The two having the same resistance is not too far stretch from the lore. On the other hand, the Tie Interceptor is considered a highly maneuvrable craft, one of the best of the galaxy, while the X-Wing is considered a reasonably maneuvrable craft.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely against giving Barrel Roll to the X-Wing, but not for free. An astromech giving the action like I proposed earlier seems reasonable, you would not be able to pair PtL+Barrel Roll+all the greens provided by the R2 units.

If the X wing had barrel roll, then the difference between it and the B wing wouldn't be so wide for that one point. Or if it had a system slot, it could improve a lot. How about astromechs that give one if those? A zero/one point astro that grants barrel roll without stress, or a zero/one point astro that grants a system. They would both help the ship out, they'd be mutually exclusive, and they could also help our old pal, the Y wing. And hey, it could help the E wing be a little more unique in that it would be the only ship that can load two system upgrades, if you give up your astromech.

That's how I would handle the little problem we have here with the X: a title giving 1 or 2 free points to spend on astromech and then have fun designing some astromech that would give the versatility the X-Wing is renown for while not getting overboard. You also help the Y and E at the same time. The best part about astromech is that you can make them unique so each X-Wing you field would be diverse and flavorful.

If the x wing had a system slot it would still be a worse b wing. Why take advanced sensors on an x wing over a b wing?

OK here's my idea for the x wing fix.

Title card, t65b. If you equip a mod uprade, it's squad point cost is reduced by 3 to a minimum of zero.

Also coming with the title is the quad linked lasers modification. This costs 7 points, is x wing only and let's you increase your primary attack value by 1.

So now you have your x wings costing the same but now you can modify them to your play style making them the multi role fighter they're supposed to be. For 0 points you can just plunk on a hulk for some added hull. Also you could throw on a stealth but I think hull would be more popular.

For 1 point you can add a shield making you a bit tanker and more crit resistant. For 1 point you could add boost to make your higher ps ships dodge arc or reposition to give them an arc on a slippery opponent.

Then for 3 points, yes 3 points you get 4 attack dice. That means you could field 4 rookies each with 4 attack dice. But here's the thing it's they lose out on a ton of survivability. They are incredibly easy to dodge and don't last as long as b wings.

Now honestly me with my play style I'd give generics the free hull and my high ps guys the 1 point engine upgrade. But the thing is it makes the x wing customizable and gives it tons of options. There is no way a non cloaking 4 dice x wing is more op then a acd phantom with 4 dice. So this gives the players options to how they want to run there x wings and makes them more cost effective.

Honestly this should come in a rogue squadron pack that comes with an art x wing and a ps 5 rogue or wraith squadron genric with an ept at 24 points.

Also a cool x wing only rogue leader ept that some how benefits either just x wings or other friendly ships at range 1 with a lower ps. Something like friendly x wings at range 1 can turn 1 blank into an eye ball. Offense or defense. Like I said this is just work in progress.

But again this here is how I think x wing gets a niche and won't be over shadowed by the other ships in the rebel fleet

As far as the long sought after Rogue Leader Title, I'd do this.

Rogue Leader. X-Wing only. Title. 0 points.

This upgrade may only be equipped by Elite Pilots.

"After you perform an action, choose 1 friendly ship at Range 1 with a lower Pilot Skill. That ship may perform the same action as a free action."

It's like a better version of squad leader in that it doesn't take up your elite talent and doesn't waste your action. You can do things like equip engine upgrade on rogue leader and allow another ship to boost. Or, you could simply give another ship target lock and focus for the round.

Red castle: In your X vs Int example these ships will be corner cases. Even with all these upgrades these are never going to be massed numbers, they are too expensive, you are at most going to be able to upgrade 1 maybe 2 X Wings to this level in standard games. Same with interceptors. Which I think is representative of highly modified ships not the standard fit vanilla model.

While an astromech granting BR might seem reasonable it undermines the whole concept of ship design. It's the ship that has the innate capability to carry out the manoeuver not the illuminated trash can. I'm not sure how sticking a droid in the back suddenly makes the ship capable of something it wasn't before. Existing droids just make a ship better at doing what it can already do, like R2, or R2-F2, or add power and systems management and repair, like R5, R5-K6, R2-D2 and the rest, which is pretty much what we see in the fluff. Droids shouldn't grant anything new in terms of capability of the ship. Unique cases like stressbot and herobot represent more specific talents such as electronic warfare and jamming or pilot enhancement well suited to uniques.

You can also add BR through Expert Handling, which I think shows FFG wanting the emphasis of ship handling on the pilot. Having a droid giving BR wouldn't necessarily hurt but I don't think it's representative of what the droids did in the fluff. Why not strap guns and engines onto the droid if it's the one flying? Leave out the squishy meatsack in front. I'm not sure how a droid could grant systems slots either. Something like a FCS would have to be built into the ship not shoehorned into an astromech. I think if we are increasing a ships capabilities it seems better suited to a Title or Mod slot. Kind of like the MF title for the YT.

I would love more flavor droids for the Rebs but they shouldn't fix the X. Why do I say that? I think what the X requires is a broad, universally applicable solution which can be applied to all X Wings. A generic droid might be far better suited to that role than a unique, which could only ever fix a single ship. But I think pinning all hopes for the X on the astromech slot is also a bit of a wrong turn. Any astromech based solution to the X could be applied to any astromech carrying ship, but that then brings in balance issues, which in turn will limit what FFG are willing to do and that will mean any X Wing specific fix gets undercut from the start. We need something specific to the X. A title seems more likely in that regard.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see some the really fun droids people have suggested so far. Bring on the RecSpecMech....

OK here's my idea for the x wing fix.

Title card, t65b. If you equip a mod uprade, it's squad point cost is reduced by 3 to a minimum of zero.

Also coming with the title is the quad linked lasers modification. This costs 7 points, is x wing only and let's you increase your primary attack value by 1.

So now you have your x wings costing the same but now you can modify them to your play style making them the multi role fighter they're supposed to be. For 0 points you can just plunk on a hulk for some added hull. Also you could throw on a stealth but I think hull would be more popular.

For 1 point you can add a shield making you a bit tanker and more crit resistant. For 1 point you could add boost to make your higher ps ships dodge arc or reposition to give them an arc on a slippery opponent.

Then for 3 points, yes 3 points you get 4 attack dice. That means you could field 4 rookies each with 4 attack dice. But here's the thing it's they lose out on a ton of survivability. They are incredibly easy to dodge and don't last as long as b wings.

Now honestly me with my play style I'd give generics the free hull and my high ps guys the 1 point engine upgrade. But the thing is it makes the x wing customizable and gives it tons of options. There is no way a non cloaking 4 dice x wing is more op then a acd phantom with 4 dice. So this gives the players options to how they want to run there x wings and makes them more cost effective.

Honestly this should come in a rogue squadron pack that comes with an art x wing and a ps 5 rogue or wraith squadron genric with an ept at 24 points.

Also a cool x wing only rogue leader ept that some how benefits either just x wings or other friendly ships at range 1 with a lower ps. Something like friendly x wings at range 1 can turn 1 blank into an eye ball. Offense or defense. Like I said this is just work in progress.

But again this here is how I think x wing gets a niche and won't be over shadowed by the other ships in the rebel fleet

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

I have not seen anyone posting about how the Tie fighter needs a fix.

Interceptors recently got a very nice buff (autothrusters).

So... Just wondering; Why do you think this will be a thing?

I would love more flavor droids for the Rebs but they shouldn't fix the X. Why do I say that? I think what the X requires is a broad, universally applicable solution which can be applied to all X Wings. A generic droid might be far better suited to that role than a unique, which could only ever fix a single ship. But I think pinning all hopes for the X on the astromech slot is also a bit of a wrong turn. Any astromech based solution to the X could be applied to any astromech carrying ship, but that then brings in balance issues, which in turn will limit what FFG are willing to do and that will mean any X Wing specific fix gets undercut from the start. We need something specific to the X. A title seems more likely in that regard.

You know, the difference between you and me and why it is pointless to continue this discussion: I think the X-Wing need a little pat on the back (Here you go little buddy), you think it needs a fix. The X-Wing is not a hopeless ship; it is currently playable and have success when used correctly. You are not shooting yourself in the foot by taking a X-Wing. So as far as discussion go, it will always be: I think you're asking for too much; I think the X-Wing needs more.

Concerning the title, that's what I already proposed by making one that lower the cost of astromech by 1 or 2 (remember that the X-Wing is considered overpriced by 1.5, not 3). And nothing would prevent FFG to also make some other generic astromech too, or like they did with the ATC and the Advanced, making some astromech X-Wing only. It's wonderful the tools a designer can use to prevent balance issue.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

The E-wing hardly needs a fix.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

The interceptor had aces already and just got Autothrusters to help it against its nemesis, the turret. The Tie is still a very good ship, so I wonder if the E and Defender aren't the ones left.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

I have not seen anyone posting about how the Tie fighter needs a fix.

Interceptors recently got a very nice buff (autothrusters).

So... Just wondering; Why do you think this will be a thing?

Most of people feel the X-Wing needs buffing for one of several reasons, one of them is not enough representation in tournament play which points to their imbalance. Looking at recent posts on this forum, someone posted data on tournaments. The Rebels have won the majority. If we apply the same balancing act/logic then the Empire is way over costed and/or underpowered?

Similar to X-Wings Sootir saw play but how often did Alpha and Avenger pilots. Using the same logic the Interceptors need a boost. We'll see how Auto-Thrusters affect them (specifically Alpha and Avenger). If we don't see Apha and Avenger pilots in equal representation in games then they may still need buffing, using the same logic.

Remember we've gone from the X-Wing needs buffing only for generics to: we need it for lore; we need it because the game is named after it; we need it because the B-Wing is too powerful or just right?; we need it because all X-Wings are under represented; we need it because all X-Wings are over costed regardless of pilot abilities; we need it because it is technically possible to one-shot an X-Wing; etc.

I'm just applying the same logic and noting that this cycle will have no (good) end. IMHO.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

The interceptor had aces already and just got Autothrusters to help it against its nemesis, the turret. The Tie is still a very good ship, so I wonder if the E and Defender aren't the ones left.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

The E-wing hardly needs a fix.

Sorry and yes I am just stiring the pot, so to speak. But this is, in part, my point. One says the E-Wing is good another says it needs a fix.

Just pointing to a cycle of trying to reach a perfect balance with so may pilots and abilities and upgrades and titles and mods.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

The interceptor had aces already and just got Autothrusters to help it against its nemesis, the turret. The Tie is still a very good ship, so I wonder if the E and Defender aren't the ones left.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

The E-wing hardly needs a fix.

Sorry and yes I am just stiring the pot, so to speak. But this is, in part, my point. One says the E-Wing is good another says it needs a fix.

Just pointing to a cycle of trying to reach a perfect balance with so may pilots and abilities and upgrades and titles and mods.

I perfectly understand, the math says Defenders suck yet in practice, it is quite apparent they don't. The generics could use a fix, but the Named pilots are right where they should be.

I would love more flavor droids for the Rebs but they shouldn't fix the X. Why do I say that? I think what the X requires is a broad, universally applicable solution which can be applied to all X Wings. A generic droid might be far better suited to that role than a unique, which could only ever fix a single ship. But I think pinning all hopes for the X on the astromech slot is also a bit of a wrong turn. Any astromech based solution to the X could be applied to any astromech carrying ship, but that then brings in balance issues, which in turn will limit what FFG are willing to do and that will mean any X Wing specific fix gets undercut from the start. We need something specific to the X. A title seems more likely in that regard.

You know, the difference between you and me and why it is pointless to continue this discussion: I think the X-Wing need a little pat on the back (Here you go little buddy), you think it needs a fix. The X-Wing is not a hopeless ship; it is currently playable and have success when used correctly. You are not shooting yourself in the foot by taking a X-Wing. So as far as discussion go, it will always be: I think you're asking for too much; I think the X-Wing needs more.

Concerning the title, that's what I already proposed by making one that lower the cost of astromech by 1 or 2 (remember that the X-Wing is considered overpriced by 1.5, not 3). And nothing would prevent FFG to also make some other generic astromech too, or like they did with the ATC and the Advanced, making some astromech X-Wing only. It's wonderful the tools a designer can use to prevent balance issue.

Also, semantics! Fix, solution, boost, upgrade, improvement, love... They are pretty interchangeable in this context. We both agree that the X needs 1-2 points of (insert word here). We just disagree in terms of how we think it is best to fill those1-2 points. I am willing to look deeper than just throwing a quick droid fix on it, giving it a pat on the butt and throwing it back out there, which is why I'm happy to discuss other things you might not quite like. Everyone is going to find their own equilibrium on this matter, which on such a well represented (fluff-wise), multi talented ship as the X is unsurprising. Maybe a solution that creates such flexibility for the X is exactly what is needed. More firepower today, more survivability tomorrow. AtomicFryingPan suggested something like that earlier. I agree with you that this comes down to identity and role for the X. The X is currently playable, it's my favorite ship, for fluff and other reasons, plus it looks soooo cool. But I don't think anyone here thinks that it is performing at its full potential.

There have been some awesome ideas on this thread already, far better than my own and this been one of the most genuinely interesting and involving threads I have seen for a long time. I have enjoyed your input and everyone else's and have evolved my own ideas and opinions because of it. Plus I think bacon has only been mentioned once as a side note!

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

Okay so that's my 'current' soap box; I got your point. You could have used a smaller picture.

But... ask yourself honestly am I far off?

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

The E-wing is in about the same shape the TIE Advanced was, actually: overpriced by about 3 points, with one very good pilot whose ability balances out the ship's statistical problems.

Most of people feel the X-Wing needs buffing for one of several reasons, one of them is not enough representation in tournament play which points to their imbalance. Looking at recent posts on this forum, someone posted data on tournaments. The Rebels have won the majority. If we apply the same balancing act/logic then the Empire is way over costed and/or underpowered?

No, the Rebels have been winning more (about 60/40) because Large ships with turrets have been defining the metagame for two waves and the Rebels have more of those.

And yes, X-wings are under-represented in tournament play. That's one of several lines of evidence that indicates the X-wing needs a little bit of help.

Similar to X-Wings Sootir saw play but how often did Alpha and Avenger pilots. Using the same logic the Interceptors need a boost. We'll see how Auto-Thrusters affect them (specifically Alpha and Avenger). If we don't see Apha and Avenger pilots in equal representation in games then they may still need buffing, using the same logic.

The Interceptor has been through two rounds of patches already, counting Imperial Aces and the Autothrusters release. They're probably functioning as intended, at the moment.

Remember we've gone from the X-Wing needs buffing only for generics to: we need it for lore; we need it because the game is named after it; we need it because the B-Wing is too powerful or just right?; we need it because all X-Wings are under represented; we need it because all X-Wings are over costed regardless of pilot abilities; we need it because it is technically possible to one-shot an X-Wing; etc.

I'm just applying the same logic and noting that this cycle will have no (good) end. IMHO.

You're quoting multiple people, there. Not everyone's logic is self-consistent, and few people are exactly consistent with one another, but that doesn't mean that no one has a point.

And if we're going to ask one another to defend distorted versions of our positions, why do you have a principle against anything else being added to the game, ever?

Sorry and yes I am just stiring the pot, so to speak. But this is, in part, my point. One says the E-Wing is good another says it needs a fix.

The people saying the E-wing is fine are wrong.

Just pointing to a cycle of trying to reach a perfect balance with so may pilots and abilities and upgrades and titles and mods.

Right, but we've been over this: it's a complex game if you consider everything in it at once. It's also a difficult game to keep balanced. But there's no general argument that because something is difficult, it shouldn't be done.

EDIT:

But... ask yourself honestly am I far off?

Yes, you are.

Constant 'balancing' is a way to sell upgrades and expansions. Is there a reason for FFG NOT to do it?

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

I have not seen anyone posting about how the Tie fighter needs a fix.

Interceptors recently got a very nice buff (autothrusters).

So... Just wondering; Why do you think this will be a thing?

Most of people feel the X-Wing needs buffing for one of several reasons, one of them is not enough representation in tournament play which points to their imbalance. Looking at recent posts on this forum, someone posted data on tournaments. The Rebels have won the majority. If we apply the same balancing act/logic then the Empire is way over costed and/or underpowered?

Similar to X-Wings Sootir saw play but how often did Alpha and Avenger pilots. Using the same logic the Interceptors need a boost. We'll see how Auto-Thrusters affect them (specifically Alpha and Avenger). If we don't see Apha and Avenger pilots in equal representation in games then they may still need buffing, using the same logic.

Remember we've gone from the X-Wing needs buffing only for generics to: we need it for lore; we need it because the game is named after it; we need it because the B-Wing is too powerful or just right?; we need it because all X-Wings are under represented; we need it because all X-Wings are over costed regardless of pilot abilities; we need it because it is technically possible to one-shot an X-Wing; etc.

I'm just applying the same logic and noting that this cycle will have no (good) end. IMHO.

you try to lump the sum of a myriad different opinions into a single frankenstein monster, then you're going to have a bad time

One the X-Wing is buffed I'm wondering what will need fixing next? The E-Wing, TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor. I'm guessing it may depend on what the fix breaks.

Okay so that's my 'current' soap box; I got your point. You could have used a smaller picture.

But... ask yourself honestly am I far off?

incredibly, in my personal experience

The Tie Fighter is absolutely perfect and has been the gold standard since the core set. It has one or two bad apples (freaking Gundark) but overall it remains an excellent and feasome ship.

The Interceptor is not my preferred playstyle (dem greens) but auto-thrusters have brought them back in a big way.

The E-wing is closest to the X-wing's current state, but even then I believe the FCS + R7 Knave has far more place in the game than the rookie ever has

And if people bring up the Defender, imo that ship kicks ass. It takes more getting used to because it is completely in a league of its own, but it has been pretty incredibly in my games (apart from Rexlar, dude is just WAY too expensive and situational)

FFG isn't financially incentivised to release fixes, they can easily release more ships or option expansions like the B-wing got in that release slot. It's not a cash gouging strategy, it's a geniune desire to bring ships that have fallen behind back into the game, especially the eponymous ship. Would you rather they patched ships or released new ones and left the old ones to die?

They fix things or they leave them in disrepair. If you don't care about updating the X-wing, don't buy whatever release they help it out with.

What would you have them do?

But... ask yourself honestly am I far off?

There's a difference between things the forums think need fixing (everything that's not the newest uber-broken thing ruining the game and making the sky fall) and things the designers themselves say need a bit of help.