After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

Unlikely. The Tie remains the standard by which other ships are judged. It hasn't gotten anything new because what it already has is very solid (Apart from Winged Gundark and maybe Night Beast).

Also, what we say here has very little affect on FFG's design team, if it has any at all. We're not really harming things. If you don't like these threads, don't read them. They're still generating meaningful discussion for some people, so it's not like the Vader Tie/x1 threads.

The tie fighter swarm does not appear to be a great build anymore. A Z-95 is a better jouster than the tie fighter per math wing. I would argue the Z-95 is the gold standard now.

The TIE Fighter and Z-95 have very comparable jousting efficiency. The reason that the Z-95 is a hair higher is because it gets +1PS for the same cost, which is worth about 1/24th of the ship's cost - just enough to nudge it a few percentage points higher.

The TIE Swarm isn't a great build anymore because the MoV system discourages taking lots of small point ships, but that is another issue entirely.

Edit: P.S.

If you look at my total cost predictions for the 2 ships, you'll see that after taking all that into consideration, the two are basically costed right where they should be. I have the PS2 Z-95 at 12.2 points, which again, is mostly due to the PS2 bump.

After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

Let's pack it up guys someone doesn't like the discussion that we currently like. You don't have to read it and no forum post has led to power creep.

@instant what is your 3 X build? I use to always love flying 3 small ship rebel builds but I feel like past a certain point they become less and and less competitive. Not knocking you or the list so please don't think I am just in my experience once we get to regionals and above we start seeing less and less of those kinds of lists winning.

The Z-95's dial and lack of actions (evade and especially barrel-roll) make it a limp willy compared to the Tie Fighter

Limp Willy should be the next Z95 named pilot...

The Z-95's dial and lack of actions (evade and especially barrel-roll) make it a limp willy compared to the Tie Fighter

Limp Willy should be the next Z95 named pilot...

"When attacking, the Defender is not hit by your attack, even if he suffers damage"

Limp Willy could kick the **** out of Blount

@instant what is your 3 X build? I use to always love flying 3 small ship rebel builds but I feel like past a certain point they become less and and less competitive. Not knocking you or the list so please don't think I am just in my experience once we get to regionals and above we start seeing less and less of those kinds of lists winning.

#Stressbot 5.0 100pts

Wes+VI+R3-A2

Luke+VI+R5-P9

Wedge+Predator+R2-D2

Great vs Han, ACD Phantoms, most random squads including other High PS squads featuring action economy.

Poor vs Swarms (BBBBZ, 7/8TIE swarms, Decimator + 3 or 4 Academy pilots.

It's my pride and joy. It was the final squad I developed as part of the #Stressbot line of squads that I have been running/ testing since August last year. It really is an apex predator among MoV Squads with most games finishing in under 30 minutes and regularly wiping the enemy squad 100-0.

I played in a tournament last night and the only time I lost was to a XXY list. The Xs were Wes with VI and Wedge with Opportunist. Basically Wes would shoot with PS 10 and strip my evade (I was playing the falcon) and then Wedge would shoot at me with +1 attack dice and I had -1 agility dice. Dutch was also handing everyone Target Locks and drawing fire away from the X-wings. Not only was this only list that beat me, it was the only list I didn't table. He won the tournament by the way.

So is the X-wing underpowered, maybe maybe not. Is it unplayable bad most definitely not.

@instant what is your 3 X build? I use to always love flying 3 small ship rebel builds but I feel like past a certain point they become less and and less competitive. Not knocking you or the list so please don't think I am just in my experience once we get to regionals and above we start seeing less and less of those kinds of lists winning.

#Stressbot 5.0 100pts

Wes+VI+R3-A2

Luke+VI+R5-P9

Wedge+Predator+R2-D2

Great vs Han, ACD Phantoms, most random squads including other High PS squads featuring action economy.

Poor vs Swarms (BBBBZ, 7/8TIE swarms, Decimator + 3 or 4 Academy pilots.

It's my pride and joy. It was the final squad I developed as part of the #Stressbot line of squads that I have been running/ testing since August last year. It really is an apex predator among MoV Squads with most games finishing in under 30 minutes and regularly wiping the enemy squad 100-0.

I really like seeing posts like these. The high PS X-Aces are still very competitive. In my experience, they struggle against swarms but can chew through large based ships. In many ways, the introduction of the TIE Phantom has been the help that the X-Wing needed. They are durable enough against a few enemy ships; it is sustained firepower that really does them in.

There seems to be a small amount of consensus that the named X Wings are in a better place than the generics (though which named pilots, not so much ). Though this has probably been suggested before, how about something that specifically focusses on the poor mooks:

Title: Mass production T-65. (I prefer Bargain Basement T-65 )

If the Pilot Skill of this ship is 4 or less, reduce the cost of this ship by -2.

If you want to improve the named pilots as well then simply remove the PS restriction.

That would allow 5 Rookies in 100 points with 5 points for upgrades, or 4 Red Squadron with Shield Upgrades or Hull Upgrades and R2s. Neither of these sound bad IMO. its around the 1.5 cost bracket that Juggler indicated a while back but gives a very slight break (0.5 point) to the jack of all trades, master of none X Wing, in a game where specialist builds are increasingly seen and effective.

This might interfere if FFG releases an EPT generic X Wing in future, but then they could just give it a price break on its card.

Yes, its boring, but its also simple and would require the least work by FFG. It also doesnt negatively impact any avenues of improving any ships because of discounted mods or astromechs making it harder to balance costs. You could release it with a couple of new astromech or mod options for the X Wing which would make everyone happy.

After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

Unlikely. The Tie remains the standard by which other ships are judged. It hasn't gotten anything new because what it already has is very solid (Apart from Winged Gundark and maybe Night Beast).

Also, what we say here has very little affect on FFG's design team, if it has any at all. We're not really harming things. If you don't like these threads, don't read them. They're still generating meaningful discussion for some people, so it's not like the Vader Tie/x1 threads.

The tie fighter swarm does not appear to be a great build anymore. A Z-95 is a better jouster than the tie fighter per math wing. I would argue the Z-95 is the gold standard now.

Not in practice.

Firstly, I'm fairly sure MathWing works on PS1 Equivalent and costs the Headhunter at 11 points. That's below FFG's point floor because that one point drop takes you from eight ships to nine. I'm fairly sure Juggler's maths are in depth enough that such a big change is taken into account (ie: they don't treat going from 12 to 11 the same as going from 42 to 41).

Secondly, and more importantly, there's a lot more to the TIE swarm than grabbing eight generics, pointing and shooting. The TIE fighter can block, turtle and dance around in a way the rusty old Headhunter can only dream. If eight TIEs are on the field, I guarantee you in the hands of a good player they will not fly in a big block of eight and get shot, they'll be pushing those TIEs to their limits, blocking, evading and barrelling in ways Z-95s simply can't.

And if there aren't eight, if they are flying in a tight formation, then Obsidian 1 will be on the field. And Howlrunner takes the TIE swarm's damage output to another level.

The TIE fighter is the swarmer, not the Z-95. That hasn't changed.

After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

The TIE fighter isn't a problem, and FFG would have to take up the use of dissociative drugs to decide that it is. It would be nice to see some more pilots, but the ship doesn't need its power level adjusted upward.

And balancing doesn't lead to perpetual power creep if you're balancing with a standard in mind. The issue isn't that the X-wing needs a nudge because it's the worst ship right now (it isn't), but that it falls short relative to the B-wing, Headhunter, and TIE fighter.

After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

Unlikely. The Tie remains the standard by which other ships are judged. It hasn't gotten anything new because what it already has is very solid (Apart from Winged Gundark and maybe Night Beast).

Also, what we say here has very little affect on FFG's design team, if it has any at all. We're not really harming things. If you don't like these threads, don't read them. They're still generating meaningful discussion for some people, so it's not like the Vader Tie/x1 threads.

The tie fighter swarm does not appear to be a great build anymore. A Z-95 is a better jouster than the tie fighter per math wing. I would argue the Z-95 is the gold standard now.

As others have said, the Z-95's stat line is a very close parallel to the TIE fighter's, and its higher PS is offset by its less flexible dial and relatively empty action bar. In practice, they're very, very close in value.

The tie fighter swarm does not appear to be a great build anymore. A Z-95 is a better jouster than the tie fighter per math wing. I would argue the Z-95 is the gold standard now.

A) Z-95 is better.

The Z-95's dial and lack of actions (evade and especially barrel-roll) make it a limp willy compared to the Tie Fighter

B) The TIE Fighter is better.

The TIE Fighter and Z-95 have very comparable jousting efficiency. The reason that the Z-95 is a hair higher is because it gets +1PS for the same cost, which is worth about 1/24th of the ship's cost - just enough to nudge it a few percentage points higher.

The TIE Swarm isn't a great build anymore because the MoV system discourages taking lots of small point ships, but that is another issue entirely.

C) The TIE Fighter and Z-95 are comparable but the TIE isn't a great build anymore...

As others have said, the Z-95's stat line is a very close parallel to the TIE fighter's, and its higher PS is offset by its less flexible dial and relatively empty action bar. In practice, they're very, very close in value.

D) They are very close in value

Well there you have it; we have a consensus.

Firstly, I'm fairly sure MathWing works on PS1 Equivalent and costs the Headhunter at 11 points. That's below FFG's point floor because that one point drop takes you from eight ships to nine. I'm fairly sure Juggler's maths are in depth enough that such a big change is taken into account (ie: they don't treat going from 12 to 11 the same as going from 42 to 41).

I use a different formula for PS1 equivalent cost, or conversely what a PSX pilot should cost. I use a proportional formula to model PS value, unlike FFG's linear point cost that is broken for ~18 point ships and really really broken for 30+ point ships.

This is all in my MathWing thread, but to re-iterate here, it is actually very simple and uses the cost progression of the PS1 TIE Fighter:

PS X = PS 1 * ( 1 + (X-1)/24)

Or working backwards:

PS 1 = PS X / ( 1 + (X-1)/24)

So in the case of the PS2 Z-95 headhunter, its equivalent PS1 value is:

PS 1 = 12 / ( 1 + (2-1)/24) = 11.52

You all are crazy if ya think the tie swarm isn't competitive. It's never going away, quantity has a certain quality of its own. Again the high ps 3 ace squads are imo the most fun to fly and might be doing well during SC'S but once regionals comes around they won't be doing nearly as well.

You all are crazy if ya think the tie swarm isn't competitive. It's never going away, quantity has a certain quality of its own. Again the high ps 3 ace squads are imo the most fun to fly and might be doing well during SC'S but once regionals comes around they won't be doing nearly as well.

Well, in the wave 5 meta, out of around 147 tournaments, only something like 3 were won by 7 ship builds.

R.I.P. TIE Swarm. (for wave 5).

You all are crazy if ya think the tie swarm isn't competitive. It's never going away, quantity has a certain quality of its own. Again the high ps 3 ace squads are imo the most fun to fly and might be doing well during SC'S but once regionals comes around they won't be doing nearly as well.

Well, in the wave 5 meta, out of around 147 tournaments, only something like 3 were won by 7 ship builds.

R.I.P. TIE Swarm. (for wave 5).

R.I.P. for wave 5 perhaps. But many argue that the TIE swarm is just as iconic as the X-Wing itself. So I wonder if many aren't hoping for a resurrection of sorts.

The TIE itself is fine, its MoV that is killing it. I did some basic math on NOVA episode #20 demonstrating that a Fat Han build gets a 10-20 point MoV advantage just for showing up, even if games do not go to time.

I am just wondering if this is a dawn of sorts for the 2-3 ship builds considering how popular they have been recently.

I am just wondering if this is a dawn of sorts for the 2-3 ship builds considering how popular they have been recently.

it's been a dawn for a **** while

all of Wave 5 has been nothing but whisper, chiraneau and whisper, chiraneau and whisper, chiraneau and fat han and whisper, chiraneau and Dash, Corran and Whisper, chiraneau...

It doesn't help that flying 7+ ships is mentally taxing and tactically complex while flying a two ship list with the most forgiving ship-type in the game is something even a novice can do effectively. The MOV just skews things further, demanding even less out of the turret player and more out of the swarm.

Rebel "swarms" (really just 4 ships) are a nice middle ground for those not quite able to fly those swarms consistently (me ) but not willing to stoop so low as to the most dreadfully dull thing in the game.

The X-wing doesn't really fit in the rebel "swarm" mold because it, too is very complicated to fly not because it is a complicated ship but because it's so limited and requires a lot of foresight and planning in order to overcome its various differences. Its simplicity makes it more difficult to fly in the face of these ships that move last, constantly reposition, and especially those that don't have to give two ***** about facing for shooting, because every choice you make with it is integral and cannot be corrected on a whim.

Not to toot my own horn (because I can't fly my Stress Wing without Engine), but I do respect anyone who can make the X-wing work for them because it is quite difficult to make effective.

When an X-Wing fix comes out, I would really like to see it being one of the following:

Some more unique pilots, as well as unique astromechs and unique X-Wing only modifications. Since the X-WIng is sort of an all-arounder, it would be cool to be able to modify ones X-Wings like no other ship in the game. And I think it would be thematic, since the rebels did not have the mass production capabilities of the Empire. So after some time, they have all their X-Wings fixed with slightly different components, and therefore some X-Wings have capabilities others don't. Maybe one mod which adds barrel-roll to your bar, another that adds evade. Maybe some astromech that mirrors Jakes ability to da a barrel roll after a focus action, stuff like that.

Or: Create an title which grants the X-Wing its own unique new action! I'm not really creative, but maybe some sort of reversed boost would be cool?

Imo, the X-wing needs to navigate 3 things it can no longer do effectively

It has been replaced as

1.) a versatile ship (B-wing takes it by a mile with barrel-roll and tons of upgrade options, only the Y-wing caught up with it thanks to BLT-A4 title to allow more variety with the ICT, and the inclusion of the auto-blaster turret)

2.) a straight jouster (B-wing and Z-95 kick its ass in straight math-wing)

3.) a joust master (a BLT-A4 Y-wing does not joust, it ions you and then rolls dice at you without retaliation)

In regards to a fix, there's something I just thought of regarding the appeal of the X-wing prior to Wave 4 and 6.

The X-wing's versatility used to come not so much from its astromech slot (copied on both the Y and E wings), but from its named pilots. We have:

1.) Durable/don't-shoot-me X-wings (Luke in general and especially with R2-D2, and R7 Tarn is geared towards a single big attacks) which actually still work very well in today's environment, imo.

2.) Scary X-wings (Wedge wrote the book on this, Hobbie could be with potential abuse of his ability and R2-D6)

3.) Support X-wings (Graven supports the squad with focus, Wes implicitly supports the squad by making enemies less effective, R3-A2 further skews things)

4.) ******* Biggs (a unique presence in the game ever since the core set, and that has yet to change)

If the ship's basic profile didn't let the non-durable, non-Biggs pilots down so hard in this era of the highly modified often 4-dice attacks, the X-wing would be a **** effective and versatile ship in ways the B/Z/Y can't be while allowing the B/Z/Y to remain effective and versatile in ways the X-wing can't be.

So, even if we opt for a "boring" fix, making more of these characters more reliably competitive would still leave us with a very versatile ship (and a more attractive, generic jouster)

I think they broke the X-wing mold with the few named pilots that are any good at this time.

I tested a luke wedge wes list against the new scum ig88 shipsx2. i lost but he was down to 1 hull and he pulled a stop when i k turned right in front.

What i found is the lack of green really hurts the humble xwing. i hope xwing mk2 has more green and o think it would be fine.

I tested a luke wedge wes list against the new scum ig88 shipsx2. i lost but he was down to 1 hull and he pulled a stop when i k turned right in front.

What i found is the lack of green really hurts the humble xwing. i hope xwing mk2 has more green and o think it would be fine.

R2 astro's got you covered

Still when I'm flying an x wing that isn't Luke I always ask myself would I have been better off with 2 z-95's and the answer is usually yes.

Still when I'm flying an x wing that isn't Luke I always ask myself would I have been better off with 2 z-95's and the answer is usually yes.

But can they stress your opponent?

Just like the Tie Fighters, I think that 2 Z is usually a very good choice. I'll even favor them over one B-Wing sometimes.

It depends if I believe my team needs more body or more firepower. Just like there is more and more ships with high attack, there is also more and more ships with high agility. Sometimes, 2 attack dice is just not enough to do the work. In that case, I'll favor the B or the X.

A template I like with the rebels is XXYZZ. You have enough point for an elite pilot and some upgrades, enough body to block your opponent and soak the damage and some control with possible Ion turret and R3-A2.