Chiming in:

I think the named X-Wings (except Garven and Hobbie and perhaps Porkins) are fine. It is the generics (and Garven and Hobbie and perhaps Porkins) that need the boost.

So a fix for the none unique ones is what is needed an dif they can find a way to only boost the weaker ones of the named ones.

Luke, Wes, and especially Biggs and Wedge do not need much of a boost.

What is the role or place that x wing fits in your opinion?

Flexibility. The jack of all trade. The ship not limited by his stats that you can take to fill any role you need. The iconic ship with a personality.

The stats, action bar and dial of the X-Wing are as basic as you can get. There is no big strength, but no blatant weakness either.

To be a jack of all trades you need to have a good cost ratio on whatever your statline is, especially for generic ships. It's weakness is that it is out-gunned for its cost against almost anything else that it sees on the table.

That's where the little boost is needed. But instead of just being one more hull and be done with it, I would like it to be boosting the part you actually need for the job you want done. And not just with the stats, but with some flavorful ability. The kind of abilities that you can get with crew, system upgrades or astromech.

Absolutely agree that the astromech adds flavor, its the cherry on top of the cake. However Jugglers point I think still stands, that the cake is a bit soggy and tasteless and all the cherries in the world wont make the cake better.

Unless you are wierdly into cherries.

Chiming in:

I think the named X-Wings (except Garven and Hobbie and perhaps Porkins) are fine. It is the generics (and Garven and Hobbie and perhaps Porkins) that need the boost.

So a fix for the none unique ones is what is needed an dif they can find a way to only boost the weaker ones of the named ones.

Luke, Wes, and especially Biggs and Wedge do not need much of a boost.

So a small fix that can be applied to all X wings. That either becomes a title, mod, or droid, or torpedo aka the Chaardan Refit for the X Wing. But that might be a little unoriginal.

If its a droid then, it would have to be generic, a unique will only fix one X Wing and if we take historical lists (where 4 Xs have been seen), its going to have to be a card which you can use in multiples. More astromechs is definitely not a bad thing for rebels as it benefits 3 ships (X, E, Y); but the opportunity cost means that to fix all X Wings with a generic droid, its going to have to be pretty compelling. But if we are looking at 1-2 points for this fix makes that less likely.

OTOH you could just make a more powerful generic droid or a bunch of uniques worth 3-4 points and give the X a leg up that way, which is perhaps unfair unless your droid discount (as has been proposed) didnt quite cover the total cost. So you are basically making the vanilla X significantly better for another point or so if you stick the droid discount and these new droids on.

I think it was Instantaequitas or Ficklegreendice who made a good point earlier that of all the astromechs we have now, there are not many with broad utility on all X Wings due to compatibility with pilot skills. This makes a broad fix through the droid slot harder if anything, because there are more named pilots for the X.

An astromech that grants a free evade if you maintain a target lock on the attacker.

Something like that! Or a free evade if you perform a white maneuver. Stress the bastard, now what will he do? A White maneuver to get his evade or a green to clear the stress and get the usual action. You're entering a joust, should you slow play to keep a line of sight or do a white and risk bumping but still get your evade. Either way, it brings the X-Wing into a fast play style, give it boost for even more fun.

Redcastle: I reeaally like the idea of giving the X Evade. I think it fits with the X Wing's manoeuverability and role. But on a dial as white as the X's getting a free action for the majority of your dial seems a bit more potent than the 1-2 points we are talking about. Maybe we need to make it a green linked? Get a free evade if you perform a green manoeuver. If the droid was the X Wing's systems and power manager It would more likely find the power for extra tricks from when the fighter wasnt being pushed hard. Someone a while ago made a point in another thread that the X Wings dial means it benefits from being played slower. I think that kinda fits more with any extra abilities. That way it would benefit the Y and E more also. Though I am not sure that the Y deserves an evade capability.

FFG fixed Interceptors with autothrusters. They already had one of, if not the best pilot in the game flying an Interceptor, and he only got even better. The same could happen to X-Wings and the game would still be balanced.

Correction: FFG made Soontir Fel (extremely) viable with autothrusters. It doesn't look like it will do anything significant enough for Alpha Squadron Pilots. Autothrusters took the relative distance between the best named and generic, and actually expanded that gap.

Edit: it is entirely possible, if not likely, that the same could happen for the X-wing. It depends on the fix.

what about the ept generics and the other named pilots that didn't hit their heads on the way out of the womb?

If the Phantom PS9 factor was not as much of an issue, then I think you could start seeing PtL autothrusters Royal Guards at PS6, but I don't think they have made much of a splash yet. Carnor Jax and then Turr are the other standouts to me, although Turr really suffers in a PS9 meta. But neither is really worth taking over Fel, with the possible exception of that really weird Jax list with Captain Kagi and Sensor Jammer.

The X-wings are not as much of a glass cannon, so they can afford to fill their EPT with VI. So PS8 ships like Luke and Wes could be viable in a Phantom-filled meta, assuming the X-wing got some buffs.

What if the Phantom was simply not allowed in tournaments. How would that impact everything we're seeing here?

What if the Phantom was simply not allowed in tournaments. How would that impact everything we're seeing here?

Once you know how to deal with them, the Phantoms are not a problem. I sincerely hope FFG doesn't get into the Ban wagon. But that's for another topic.

Even if the Phantom was not part of the game, the problem would remain that there is better options for the same price. BBBBZ would not suddenly be replaced by XXXXZ if there was no Phantom around. Mathematically speaking, there is no reason to take a X-Wing.

What if the Phantom was simply not allowed in tournaments. How would that impact everything we're seeing here?

Once you know how to deal with them, the Phantoms are not a problem. I sincerely hope FFG doesn't get into the Ban wagon. But that's for another topic.

Even if the Phantom was not part of the game, the problem would remain that there is better options for the same price. BBBBZ would not suddenly be replaced by XXXXZ if there was no Phantom around. Mathematically speaking, there is no reason to take a X-Wing.

Mostly likely true.

[edited] P.S. I know people feel this is a terrible idea and other games do it and many object but squad limits are very thematic. So many Bs and Ys to X-Wings, etc... Cost and parts availability was and will always be part of any campaign/war. 'Sure it's a better fighter, if only we could get the parts to keep them in the air.'

P.P.S. I'd go for it.

Even if the Phantom was not part of the game, the problem would remain that there is better options for the same price. BBBBZ would not suddenly be replaced by XXXXZ if there was no Phantom around. Mathematically speaking, there is no reason to take a X-Wing.

Maybe its worth looking at a fix which is worth more than the 1-2 points the X Wing is mathematically short at the moment. Yeah you might pay more points for it with a slight discount (those 1-2 points), but it needs to be something which gives players a reason to take the X over anything else. Something like that seems like it would be much more impactful than just a slight boost.

An astromech that grants a free evade if you maintain a target lock on the attacker.

Something like that! Or a free evade if you perform a white maneuver. Stress the bastard, now what will he do? A White maneuver to get his evade or a green to clear the stress and get the usual action. You're entering a joust, should you slow play to keep a line of sight or do a white and risk bumping but still get your evade. Either way, it brings the X-Wing into a fast play style, give it boost for even more fun.

Redcastle: I reeaally like the idea of giving the X Evade. I think it fits with the X Wing's manoeuverability and role. But on a dial as white as the X's getting a free action for the majority of your dial seems a bit more potent than the 1-2 points we are talking about. Maybe we need to make it a green linked? Get a free evade if you perform a green manoeuver. If the droid was the X Wing's systems and power manager It would more likely find the power for extra tricks from when the fighter wasnt being pushed hard. Someone a while ago made a point in another thread that the X Wings dial means it benefits from being played slower. I think that kinda fits more with any extra abilities. That way it would benefit the Y and E more also. Though I am not sure that the Y deserves an evade capability.

Interestingly, if they had given the X-wing the evade action at the start of the game we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. The biggest problem with the X-wing is how quickly it dies to sustained firepower.

In addition the X-wing potentially should have had the greens from the X-wing and the Z-95 combined (the X-wing is supposed to be a versatile and agile fighter), while the Y-wing should have had the current X dial with with the extra reds it has. Don't know what you do to the E-wing though under those circumstances, but it doesn't really matter at this point.

I know giving the X-wing evade appears to make Biggs overpowered, but really he isn't (at least not in a world where the EPT bot doesn't exist). Evade is almost never the first action taken, and it really only becomes good when paired with a focus (or two). Avoiding the cheap PtL focus/evade on Biggs would have been enough to keep it within reason. Every other option requires investing in an expensive companion ship, like Garven or Kyle.

For the named EPT pilots, PtL becomes a nice option since you get to either go full offence, or mixed defence/offence. For Luke, the evade action would have been fantastic and he wouldn't have got lost in mediocrity. For generics, having evade is not the greatest, but it is certainly a useful option as it gives you a chance to avoid 3 damage from a single hit, which in itself is a nice advantage.

...but you have to take those changes with a grain of salt, since things would presumably have changed around those new mechanics. It's easy to say in hindsight that the changes wouldn't work because then R2-D2 becomes too powerful (except R2-D2 didn't really become (really) good until the E-wing came along with its better green selection). I agree that having R2-D2 equipped focus/evading EPT X-wings might have been annoying to kill (much like E-wings can be now), but it is still not exactly cheap. Luke with R2-D2 and PtL would be 35 points and probably reasonably well costed.

Having the evade action goes a long way to improving the X-wings durability, which is the main issue with it at the moment in my eyes.

Interestingly, if they had given the X-wing the evade action at the start of the game we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. The biggest problem with the X-wing is how quickly it dies to sustained firepower.

...

I know giving the X-wing evade appears to make Biggs overpowered, but really he isn't (at least not in a world where the EPT bot doesn't exist). Evade is almost never the first action taken, and it really only becomes good when paired with a focus (or two). Avoiding the cheap PtL focus/evade on Biggs would have been enough to keep it within reason. Every other option requires investing in an expensive companion ship, like Garven or Kyle.

For the named EPT pilots, PtL becomes a nice option since you get to either go full offence, or mixed defence/offence. For Luke, the evade action would have been fantastic and he wouldn't have got lost in mediocrity. For generics, having evade is not the greatest, but it is certainly a useful option as it gives you a chance to avoid 3 damage from a single hit, which in itself is a nice advantage.

Agreed. I think there is a good case for the Evade action on the X wing action bar, which would differentiate it from the other Rebel heavys (Y and B). It was more manoeverable than both and designed to dogfight other fighters. The E and A deserve it because of what they were supposed to be. It also wouldnt be the first time that less manoeuverable ships got the evade action (Firespray and Falcon) so it wouldnt be too out of place on the X and it would up survivability as you said.

In addition the X-wing potentially should have had the greens from the X-wing and the Z-95 combined (the X-wing is supposed to be a versatile and agile fighter), while the Y-wing should have had the current X dial with with the extra reds it has. Don't know what you do to the E-wing though under those circumstances, but it doesn't really matter at this point.

I kind of think that the astromech capability is somewhere within the argument, though I agree with the main point, that the X was supposed to be improved across the board over the Z95; I think the astromech helps make it so. The R2 droid upgrade illustrates this I think. But by the same token, even with better engines, the extra mass of all the stuff the X Wing was shunting around would likely have made the Z95 nippier in certain ways.

If you were just going to grant the X the Evade action however it would probably be through a title. I dont think an astromech slot upgrade fits this kind of solution. Agility/manoeuver is part of the fighter by design and the way the pilot flies it.

I dont link Luke would be OP in your example either. Biggs with Herobot, PTL and evade (through a title fix) would only weather 1 more hit per turn, which doesnt seem OP on a 5 HP, 2 green dice fighter. Even with an extra hull upgrade on biggs you are paying 6 points (at least - assuming title is free) for a fighter which will die sooner rather than later.

So we need more astromechs and a title (Rogue Squadron X-Wing) for the X-wing that discounts astromechs like the X1 one for the TIE Advanced discounts System upgrades.

That way the new astromechs will also work on Ys and Es but become cheaper (or even free) for the X-Wings.

The problem is still that this will increase the power of the X-Wings that don't need help (Biggs escpecially) as well.

I'm not normally one to go against things that you suggest (and I definitely think the X-wing needs a buff) but the X-wing is without a doubt the best Phantom hunter for the Rebellion thanks to R3-A2. Even without Engine Upgrade, Luke or Wes firing at PS10 is without a doubt the strongest counter to the high PS ACD Phantom. It only takes one stress to interrupt the Phantom's ACD and of the four PS 8 Rebel Pilots with an Astromech slot, only Luke, Wes, and Corran can add on VI and take R3-A2. Corran is much better suited to take a regenerative astromech like R2-D2 which leaves our favorite Jedi and wise cracking wingman to wrangle up those crazy Phantoms.

I completely agree with R3-A2 at PS10 being extremely powerful. I won a store championship with Phat Han Sad Horn, where Horn has VI, R3-A2 and FCS.

What if the Phantom was simply not allowed in tournaments. How would that impact everything we're seeing here?

Then we would revert to a more wave 3-like meta*, where the X-wing is still replaced by the B-wing, and the only generic TIE Interceptor to see use would be the PS6.

*MoV and lack of partial points notwithstanding - everyone will still want to take as Fat of a ship as possible to avoid giving points to their opponent.

Redcastle: I reeaally like the idea of giving the X Evade.

Meh. With 3 attack dice you really want focus to be able to convert eyeballs to hits. The evade action has never made or broke a generic ship. It's nice but not central.

This just hit me: there's a lot of unusable astromech cards out there, right ? I mean, technically a lot of them have some usefulness, but really they're way too situational to be worth it. How's about this, though: an X-Wing only modification that reads "whenever you gain a stress token, you may instead discard an equipped astromech card to remove that token". From a fluff perspective it's pretty neat - it's the astromech helping the pilot with flying the ship, keeping it together (Luke's stabilizer is loose from stress during the trench run, R2 focuses on dealing with that). And this gives you a surprise advantage in one turn - maybe you pull off a K-turn and are able to take an action, or you're chasing an enemy ship and just need that red maneuver to stay on his tail.

To me it seems like a neat idea and it does put an emphasis on player skill - you have to pick the right moment to use it, otherwise you're wasting an R2 unit. As for cost - I'm a bit torn, people are saying that the X-Wing is slightly overcosted now (at least the generic), so maybe 1 pt ? Or maybe even make it free. And it doesn't break the balance on the other end, I think, because with the good X-Wing pilots - Wedge, Luke, Biggs - you'd want to equip them with a good astromech like R2 or a stressbot and that's not something you'd want to waste.

Thoughts ?

[...]

What if the Phantom was simply not allowed in tournaments. How would that impact everything we're seeing here?

Then we would revert to a more wave 3-like meta*, where the X-wing is still replaced by the B-wing, and the only generic TIE Interceptor to see use would be the PS6.

*MoV and lack of partial points notwithstanding - everyone will still want to take as Fat of a ship as possible to avoid giving points to their opponent.

[...]

WAIT!!!

Let's not confuse an issue with how points are scored and the playability of a ship. If ships do not see enough "tournament action" as a result of how the points are awarded that should be a completely different topic from a ship not seeing enough play because it is unbalanced. If we balance due to getting the most from scoring and the scoring changes then we'll see hundreds more threads yelling 'imbalance' when everything is really just fine between the ships themselves.

[edited for spell'in]

P.S. I know people feel this is a terrible idea and other games do it and many object but squad limits are very thematic. So many Bs and Ys to X-Wings, etc... Cost and parts availability was and will always be part of any campaign/war. 'Sure it's a better fighter, if only we could get the parts to keep them in the air.'

P.P.S. I'd go for it.

In casual play or for a campaign, sure! I already do it sometimes, building around a theme.

For tournament play, I don't think it has its place. I think that people should be able to bring whatever they want to bring. Who am I to tell them what to fly and what not? It would also reinforce the idea that some ships are made better than others, and that instead of trying to make them balanced, you just limit their use by forcing a 'handicap' to field them.

Agreed. Include by balancing, don't exclude because of imbalance.

Juggler: Agreed. But if it was part of a free astromech ability based on a manoeuver you still could. Maybe a RecSpecMech droid which granted a free focus on a green dial move should be an option too. Someone suggested this earlier

After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

Even if the Phantom was not part of the game, the problem would remain that there is better options for the same price. BBBBZ would not suddenly be replaced by XXXXZ if there was no Phantom around. Mathematically speaking, there is no reason to take a X-Wing.

I agree that mathematically speaking there is no reason to take the X over the B, so if you do you need it to be able to do something that the B cannot, through a combination of Pilot Abilities and Astromechs. My favorite Anti-phantom ship is Hobbie with R3-A2. Once he gets on a phantom he can make it more manageable for a few turns.

Even if the Phantom was not part of the game, the problem would remain that there is better options for the same price. BBBBZ would not suddenly be replaced by XXXXZ if there was no Phantom around. Mathematically speaking, there is no reason to take a X-Wing.

I agree that mathematically speaking there is no reason to take the X over the B, so if you do you need it to be able to do something that the B cannot, through a combination of Pilot Abilities and Astromechs. My favorite Anti-phantom ship is Hobbie with R3-A2. Once he gets on a phantom he can make it more manageable for a few turns.

Exactly why my idea to help the X-Wing be more relevant lies with the Astromech. That's the slot that keep it appart from the B-Wing.

After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

Unlikely. The Tie remains the standard by which other ships are judged. It hasn't gotten anything new because what it already has is very solid (Apart from Winged Gundark and maybe Night Beast).

Also, what we say here has very little affect on FFG's design team, if it has any at all. We're not really harming things. If you don't like these threads, don't read them. They're still generating meaningful discussion for some people, so it's not like the Vader Tie/x1 threads.

I played in a tournament last night and the only time I lost was to a XXY list. The Xs were Wes with VI and Wedge with Opportunist. Basically Wes would shoot with PS 10 and strip my evade (I was playing the falcon) and then Wedge would shoot at me with +1 attack dice and I had -1 agility dice. Dutch was also handing everyone Target Locks and drawing fire away from the X-wings. Not only was this only list that beat me, it was the only list I didn't table. He won the tournament by the way.

So is the X-wing underpowered, maybe maybe not. Is it unplayable bad most definitely not.

After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

Unlikely. The Tie remains the standard by which other ships are judged. It hasn't gotten anything new because what it already has is very solid (Apart from Winged Gundark and maybe Night Beast).

Also, what we say here has very little affect on FFG's design team, if it has any at all. We're not really harming things. If you don't like these threads, don't read them. They're still generating meaningful discussion for some people, so it's not like the Vader Tie/x1 threads.

The tie fighter swarm does not appear to be a great build anymore. A Z-95 is a better jouster than the tie fighter per math wing. I would argue the Z-95 is the gold standard now.

After reading though a few pages I feel this is a slippery desgin slope. Once you boost the X too much, the next complaint will be the TIE fight is underpowered. After all, there have been no new pilots since wave 1 (the X gets astromechs and had a repaint already with more pilots), only 3 pilots have an EPT (4 for the X), and they can only equip modifications.

Let's just stop these stupid fix threads already. It only leads to perpetual power creep.

Unlikely. The Tie remains the standard by which other ships are judged. It hasn't gotten anything new because what it already has is very solid (Apart from Winged Gundark and maybe Night Beast).

Also, what we say here has very little affect on FFG's design team, if it has any at all. We're not really harming things. If you don't like these threads, don't read them. They're still generating meaningful discussion for some people, so it's not like the Vader Tie/x1 threads.

The tie fighter swarm does not appear to be a great build anymore. A Z-95 is a better jouster than the tie fighter per math wing. I would argue the Z-95 is the gold standard now.

and that's where math-wing tends to fall aprt

The Z-95's dial and lack of actions (evade and especially barrel-roll) make it a limp willy compared to the Tie Fighter

It is true that the X-wing has more favorable match ups than unfavorable ones. The problem is defeating the two or three that become relatively impossible to defeat because they lack dependable staying power or the ability to reposition.

I have taken XXX ( after switching from XXXZ) to 5 out of the past 6 tournaments, including 4 store championships. It amassed a 20-6 record with the two non-store championships producing a 10-0 record. In fact, 4 of the losses were all to the same person, flying the same list. You would think that taking on Oicunn and 4 academies would be fairly simple, but that list has more staying power than the X-wings do. The other two losses came from BBBBZ and a particularly brutal string of bad dice vs Scum Boba & Kath.

I already detailed a batrep of the next store championship where I just dumped it and played XBBB and won, but the victory felt a little hollow because I knew if I had tried the same thing with XXXX it would not have worked.

Not trying to brag or anything, but it says a lot about the X-wings limitations in a tournament which is fairly important.