An another thread we had the idea of a title or mod that repairs a hull once, so long as an asyromech is equiped. It in essense gives +1 hull without it just giving it straight, and also encourages taking astromechs which is thematic for x wings.

Yes, that is the corner that FFG has backed themselves into by making some really good pilots relative to some of the others of the saem ship. They can never balance all the pilots out relative to each other within the same ship class. Biggs and Wedge will always be the top dog no matter what.

I got around this in my House Rules by making the "free +1 hull" cost 1 point for Biggs and Wedge, and 0 for everyone else. Because, you can get away with anything for House Rules.

Is it better for Biggs and Wedge to be slightly overpowered, or most other X-wings underpowered?

Yes that is a corner for FFG....

For me I don't believe it's possible, and I agree with MajorJuggler, that in a game with so many options, upgrades and abilities to have everything near perfectly balanced. There will be pilots that don't see much action and other's that see more for whatever reason.

To address jimmuis' question yes I'd rather see only a few pilots see action than one pilot dominating all builds and tournaments. As long as the ship/craft is seeing play I'm quite okay with a few pilots taking a back seat.

[edited for spellin']

Been thinking what is unique about the X Wing.

It had a droid slot, so droids.
It had S Foils, supposed to make it manoeuver better.
It had 4 guns, not many other ships do and was designed to shoot at stuff, (derp...seems logical but I will come back to this).
It had decent protection for a fighter and can joust if needs be.
It was not meant to be a high speed fighter but it was meant to be manoeverable, in game this means has decent dial with a few flexible slow greens.

Given that SW space fights were influenced by WW2 fighter combat it underlines the logic behind some of the design. The X seems to be most analogous to the U.S. heavy planes of mid war. In particular the Thunderbolt, Hellcat and Corsair. None of these emphasized manoeuver or speed over firepower, which the lightest and most agile fighters (which they regularly beat) did, i.e. the Zero. All of them were multi role fighters, with the emphasis on the fighter part. All of them had a lot of guns and were designed to kill enemy fighters by that firepower. They weren't as agile and so had to maximize their time on target even though they might get outmanoeuvered.

How about something that takes advantage of the most unique aspects of the X in line with this. I haven't seen this one suggested before, but apologies if someone has.

When you perform a green manoeuver you may perform a barrel roll.

This gives the X a bit more situational positioning capability, which people have asked for, but doesn't turn it into an arc dodger like the Interceptor and it remains a bit predictable, but it fits with the X Wings role as a gunfighter which wasn't earning its money when it didnt have its guns pointing at an enemy, the BR would help it achieve that. It fits with the X being known as a heavy fighter, not a light, so no boost and is also in line with its dial (slow greens). It fits around the S foils making the X more maneuverable which is what other people have raised as an upgrade, but it doesn't over emphasize agility and as has been said the X wasn't super agile. It's more comfortable at slow to medium speeds. It also ups the action efficiency of the X which has only got 2 actions in its bar.

I think it's worth 1-2 points as the X sits now (probably more like 2). Juggler might might be able to illuminate this point.

I can see two ways of fitting this in; a 0 point X Wing specific title/mod or as a generic astromech costing 2 points as part of a -2 droid-discount deal for the X. I say generic as this is thematic of the X Wing design concept not a particular capability. You could say that the droid was freeing up engine power and making use of the S foils at efficient low speeds. I'm less OK with that, but it would prevent the combination of R2 and title. If it was a droid it gives some utility to the E and Y but isn't a must have on either.

What do people think?

FFG fixed Interceptors with autothrusters. They already had one of, if not the best pilot in the game flying an Interceptor, and he only got even better. The same could happen to X-Wings and the game would still be balanced.

FFG fixed Interceptors with autothrusters. They already had one of, if not the best pilot in the game flying an Interceptor, and he only got even better. The same could happen to X-Wings and the game would still be balanced.

I think we are mixing subjects here. Interceptors already saw play but were out-classed because of hyper-mobile turrets. In this the fix is very targeted at range 3 and/or out or arc to counter this issue.

This isn't the same as a broad open-ended any upgrade or modification card -3 points to all pilots.

I would say there is a large difference between the Interceptor fix and some of the fixes to the X-Wing recommended here.

Just my 2 cents.

FFG fixed Interceptors with autothrusters. They already had one of, if not the best pilot in the game flying an Interceptor, and he only got even better. The same could happen to X-Wings and the game would still be balanced.

Correction: FFG made Soontir Fel (extremely) viable with autothrusters. It doesn't look like it will do anything significant enough for Alpha Squadron Pilots. Autothrusters took the relative distance between the best named and generic, and actually expanded that gap.

Edit: it is entirely possible, if not likely, that the same could happen for the X-wing. It depends on the fix.

FFG fixed Interceptors with autothrusters. They already had one of, if not the best pilot in the game flying an Interceptor, and he only got even better. The same could happen to X-Wings and the game would still be balanced.

Correction: FFG made Soontir Fel (extremely) viable with autothrusters. It doesn't look like it will do anything significant enough for Alpha Squadron Pilots. Autothrusters took the relative distance between the best named and generic, and actually expanded that gap.

Edit: it is entirely possible, if not likely, that the same could happen for the X-wing. It depends on the fix.

what about the ept generics and the other named pilots that didn't hit their heads on the way out of the womb?

They hit their heads when they landed on the floor

FFG fixed Interceptors with autothrusters. They already had one of, if not the best pilot in the game flying an Interceptor, and he only got even better. The same could happen to X-Wings and the game would still be balanced.

Correction: FFG made Soontir Fel (extremely) viable with autothrusters. It doesn't look like it will do anything significant enough for Alpha Squadron Pilots. Autothrusters took the relative distance between the best named and generic, and actually expanded that gap.

Edit: it is entirely possible, if not likely, that the same could happen for the X-wing. It depends on the fix.

what about the ept generics and the other named pilots that didn't hit their heads on the way out of the womb?

If the Phantom PS9 factor was not as much of an issue, then I think you could start seeing PtL autothrusters Royal Guards at PS6, but I don't think they have made much of a splash yet. Carnor Jax and then Turr are the other standouts to me, although Turr really suffers in a PS9 meta. But neither is really worth taking over Fel, with the possible exception of that really weird Jax list with Captain Kagi and Sensor Jammer.

The X-wings are not as much of a glass cannon, so they can afford to fill their EPT with VI. So PS8 ships like Luke and Wes could be viable in a Phantom-filled meta, assuming the X-wing got some buffs.

There is a difference between how much the ship is directly overcosted by (1.5 - 2 points), and how much that equivalent improvement costs in the form of upgrade cards. +1 Hull will essentially "fix" the X-wing. The ship still wouldn't quite be up to the cost efficiency of a TIE Fighter or the new TIE Advanced, but at least it could be competitively palatable. A Hull Upgrade is not actually worth 3 points on an X-wing, but that is what it costs.

I can get behind the idea that most mods are not really worth their price, but you suggested earlier a 3 points deduction for any one upgrade. It implies also astromech and EPT. Are you saying that you also think that all EPTs are not worth their value?

Some of the EPTs are a good value on the named pilots, so if the design intent is to just make the X-wing all-around better without making the named pilots proportionally better after the fix than the generics, then that is a good argument for simply giving the X-wing 1 hull straight up (the "boring" fix), or at least restricting the -3 cost on only modifications.

I would have to run some more details numbers on it, to see what the cost effectiveness would be for various pilot loadouts with -3 points towards an EPT or more commonly R2-D2.

Edit: In general this would probably result in some of the named pilots getting about an extra point worth of value out of it than the generics would see from simply taking a Hull Upgrade. I don't like designing generics that are instantly obsolete compared to the named pilots, so I could easily be convinced to do the more "boring" fix to be safe. That is currently what is in my House Rules. I do expect FFG to release some new astromechs while they are at it though, because that seems like a very FFG-ish and lore-appropriate thing to do.

If you want my opinion, I would prefer no fix at all over one that might make some pilots too good, especially on a ship that is not in a dire situation in the first place.

I think that's the problem I have in the first place with the mod discount: it is kinda boring. It would be balanced and it would works to make the X-Wing more relevant, but it lacks flavor. If it was the direction FFG would decide to take, I would be okay with it. Just like I was with Chardaan Refit: It was needed and it did the work, but it was uncreative. A-Wing are just cheaper.

A Mod reduction would balance the ship, but it would not suddenly makes me want to take a X-Wing more than I already want. Maybe that's because I'm the kind of guy that never use the same list. I love to explore, I love to try different things. I don't take a ship just because the stats tells me it is the best choice, I take it for what it can actually bring to the table, the fun I will have flying it. I love to pick a random ship or upgrade I have yet to use, and try to build around it. See how I can make it works. That's why I love the Tie Advanced fix but I'm indifferent to the A-Wing one. The Tie Advanced fix will allow me to try different things, because the System Upgrade slot is colorful. The Modification one, not so much: one more health, or boost. They don't really mess with the game mecanics like the System, crew or astromech upgrade currently do, they just boost your stats. Autothruster is the only mod I was actually excited to try, but that's only because I hate going against turrets, not because of all the things I could do like with Advanced Sensors.

So that's it I guess, modifications just doesn't strike my creativity when building a list. Sure, the X-Wing would be balanced, but I would not end up taking them more often. The X-Wing would not suddenly have a place of their own.

There is a difference between how much the ship is directly overcosted by (1.5 - 2 points), and how much that equivalent improvement costs in the form of upgrade cards. +1 Hull will essentially "fix" the X-wing. The ship still wouldn't quite be up to the cost efficiency of a TIE Fighter or the new TIE Advanced, but at least it could be competitively palatable. A Hull Upgrade is not actually worth 3 points on an X-wing, but that is what it costs.

I can get behind the idea that most mods are not really worth their price, but you suggested earlier a 3 points deduction for any one upgrade. It implies also astromech and EPT. Are you saying that you also think that all EPTs are not worth their value?

Some of the EPTs are a good value on the named pilots, so if the design intent is to just make the X-wing all-around better without making the named pilots proportionally better after the fix than the generics, then that is a good argument for simply giving the X-wing 1 hull straight up (the "boring" fix), or at least restricting the -3 cost on only modifications.

I would have to run some more details numbers on it, to see what the cost effectiveness would be for various pilot loadouts with -3 points towards an EPT or more commonly R2-D2.

Edit: In general this would probably result in some of the named pilots getting about an extra point worth of value out of it than the generics would see from simply taking a Hull Upgrade. I don't like designing generics that are instantly obsolete compared to the named pilots, so I could easily be convinced to do the more "boring" fix to be safe. That is currently what is in my House Rules. I do expect FFG to release some new astromechs while they are at it though, because that seems like a very FFG-ish and lore-appropriate thing to do.

If you want my opinion, I would prefer no fix at all over one that might make some pilots too good, especially on a ship that is not in a dire situation in the first place.

I think that's the problem I have in the first place with the mod discount: it is kinda boring. It would be balanced and it would works to make the X-Wing more relevant, but it lacks flavor. If it was the direction FFG would decide to take, I would be okay with it. Just like I was with Chardaan Refit: It was needed and it did the work, but it was uncreative. A-Wing are just cheaper.

A Mod reduction would balance the ship, but it would not suddenly makes me want to take a X-Wing more than I already want. Maybe that's because I'm the kind of guy that never use the same list. I love to explore, I love to try different things. I don't take a ship just because the stats tells me it is the best choice, I take it for what it can actually bring to the table, the fun I will have flying it. I love to pick a random ship or upgrade I have yet to use, and try to build around it. See how I can make it works. That's why I love the Tie Advanced fix but I'm indifferent to the A-Wing one. The Tie Advanced fix will allow me to try different things, because the System Upgrade slot is colorful. The Modification one, not so much: one more health, or boost. They don't really mess with the game mecanics like the System, crew or astromech upgrade currently do, they just boost your stats. Autothruster is the only mod I was actually excited to try, but that's only because I hate going against turrets, not because of all the things I could do like with Advanced Sensors.

So that's it I guess, modifications just doesn't strike my creativity when building a list. Sure, the X-Wing would be balanced, but I would not end up taking them more often. The X-Wing would not suddenly have a place of their own.

What is the role or place that x wing fits in your opinion?

I've said it a few times now on different sites: Xwings would be awesome with an action to "close S-foils" which would be like going into stealth, but you'd lose 1 attack dice, gain 1 agility and all red maneuvers would turn white. This would effectively make xwings into great ships in the fray, but you'd have to learn how and when to close your Sfoils to best suit your needs.

Opening Sfoils would be a free thing, and give an R unit an ability like "after you attack an enemy at range 1-2, you may preform a free "Close Sfoils" action"

I was also thinking it could turn all white maneuvers green, instead of red into white.

My X-wing fix is this, pending some fix to ordnance:

T-65R [Torpedo] {-1} Your upgrade bar gains the System Upgrade Icon.

Creates the recon variant of the X-wing by trading the torpedo slot for a system upgrade slot and reducing ship cost, but not reducing system upgrade cost (unlike the TIE/x1).

You could abuse R5-K6 with FCS like that.

Well, by abuse, I mean get some use out of....

What is the role or place that x wing fits in your opinion?

Flexibility. The jack of all trade. The ship not limited by his stats that you can take to fill any role you need. The iconic ship with a personality.

The stats, action bar and dial of the X-Wing are as basic as you can get. There is no big strength, but no blatant weakness either. That's actually the best stats a ship can have for an all-around fighter while not risking the status of OP. And every unique pilots actually work on that, each one filling a specific role: Luke with R2-D2 is a tank, Biggs and Wes are controllers, Wedge is a hard hitter, Tarn can either be a sniper or a tank, Hobbie paired with Dutch can be surprisingly maneuvrable, Garven is a support ship, anyone of them with R3-A2 can be a controller.

Instead of just giving them a little stat boost, like a hull or attack, give them a way to extrapolate their abilities, and do it with flavor. The ship that adapt to his pilot. We're always talking about the generics, but ultimately, the X-Wing is his pilot. It's not just an X-wing, it's Wedge! Or Luke!.... or Porkins... It was the favorite ship of most pilots because whatever the mission was, it could get the job done. And each and every one of those X-Wing had a copilot: an astromech droid. And most of those droids had a personality of their own, just think about R2-D2, Whistler or even Chopper! If I remember correctly, I believe I read somewhere (WEG RPG?) that with time, an astromech could actually boost the performance of the ship, tweeking it in his own way. I would love for FFG to exploit even more that part of the lore!

If I want a generic ship for a specific role, I'll take a A(flanker), Y(Controller) or B-Wing(hard-hitter). If I want a ship with a personality, I'll take a X-Wing. The sneaky ship of the rebel alliance.

If I want a generic ship for a specific role, I'll take a A(flanker), Y(Controller) or B-Wing(hard-hitter). If I want a ship with a personality, I'll take a X-Wing.

Did you just nicely call the X-wing the fat one?

What is the role or place that x wing fits in your opinion?

Flexibility. The jack of all trade. The ship not limited by his stats that you can take to fill any role you need. The iconic ship with a personality.

The stats, action bar and dial of the X-Wing are as basic as you can get. There is no big strength, but no blatant weakness either.

To be a jack of all trades you need to have a good cost ratio on whatever your statline is, especially for generic ships. It's weakness is that it is out-gunned for its cost against almost anything else that it sees on the table.

If I want a generic ship for a specific role, I'll take a A(flanker), Y(Controller) or B-Wing(hard-hitter). If I want a ship with a personality, I'll take a X-Wing.

Did you just nicely call the X-wing the fat one?

Nah, he's actually cute!

If I want a generic ship for a specific role, I'll take a A(flanker), Y(Controller) or B-Wing(hard-hitter). If I want a ship with a personality, I'll take a X-Wing.

Did you just nicely call the X-wing the fat one?

Nah, he's actually cute!

So.... young and pudgy looking. lol

What is the role or place that x wing fits in your opinion?

Flexibility. The jack of all trade. The ship not limited by his stats that you can take to fill any role you need. The iconic ship with a personality.

The stats, action bar and dial of the X-Wing are as basic as you can get. There is no big strength, but no blatant weakness either.

To be a jack of all trades you need to have a good cost ratio on whatever your statline is, especially for generic ships. It's weakness is that it is out-gunned for its cost against almost anything else that it sees on the table.

That's where the little boost is needed. But instead of just being one more hull and be done with it, I would like it to be boosting the part you actually need for the job you want done. And not just with the stats, but with some flavorful ability. The kind of abilities that you can get with crew, system upgrades or astromech.

If I want a generic ship for a specific role, I'll take a A(flanker), Y(Controller) or B-Wing(hard-hitter). If I want a ship with a personality, I'll take a X-Wing.

Did you just nicely call the X-wing the fat one?

Nah, he's actually cute!

So.... young and pudgy looking. lol

The best way to get the good looking girl is to first hang out with her fat friend.... Jealousy can do wonderful things...

What I really want is balance through creativity.

Cost ratio and balance said the Tie Advanced needed more punch to be effective, Creativity brought us: ''You will get a free crit, BUT, you need to have a TL on the target and not use it.'' That's what I want. Not just a boring stat upgrade or cost reduction.

An astromech that grants a free evade if you maintain a target lock on the attacker.

An astromech that grants a free evade if you maintain a target lock on the attacker.

Something like that! Or a free evade if you perform a white maneuver. Stress the bastard, now what will he do? A White maneuver to get his evade or a green to clear the stress and get the usual action. You're entering a joust, should you slow play to keep a line of sight or do a white and risk bumping but still get your evade. Either way, it brings the X-Wing into a fast play style, give it boost for even more fun.

FFG fixed Interceptors with autothrusters. They already had one of, if not the best pilot in the game flying an Interceptor, and he only got even better. The same could happen to X-Wings and the game would still be balanced.

Correction: FFG made Soontir Fel (extremely) viable with autothrusters. It doesn't look like it will do anything significant enough for Alpha Squadron Pilots. Autothrusters took the relative distance between the best named and generic, and actually expanded that gap.

Edit: it is entirely possible, if not likely, that the same could happen for the X-wing. It depends on the fix.

what about the ept generics and the other named pilots that didn't hit their heads on the way out of the womb?

If the Phantom PS9 factor was not as much of an issue, then I think you could start seeing PtL autothrusters Royal Guards at PS6, but I don't think they have made much of a splash yet. Carnor Jax and then Turr are the other standouts to me, although Turr really suffers in a PS9 meta. But neither is really worth taking over Fel, with the possible exception of that really weird Jax list with Captain Kagi and Sensor Jammer.

The X-wings are not as much of a glass cannon, so they can afford to fill their EPT with VI. So PS8 ships like Luke and Wes could be viable in a Phantom-filled meta, assuming the X-wing got some buffs.

I'm not normally one to go against things that you suggest (and I definitely think the X-wing needs a buff) but the X-wing is without a doubt the best Phantom hunter for the Rebellion thanks to R3-A2. Even without Engine Upgrade, Luke or Wes firing at PS10 is without a doubt the strongest counter to the high PS ACD Phantom. It only takes one stress to interrupt the Phantom's ACD and of the four PS 8 Rebel Pilots with an Astromech slot, only Luke, Wes, and Corran can add on VI and take R3-A2. Corran is much better suited to take a regenerative astromech like R2-D2 which leaves our favorite Jedi and wise cracking wingman to wrangle up those crazy Phantoms.