I was thinking more about the camp of this argument that says the X-Wing doesn't have a 'role', and that that lack of identity is what needs to get fixed.

I remember being quick to nod my head in agreement when that was mentioned. But the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that might not be right.

Maybe the role of the X-Wing is to not have a role. Or it's role is more aesthetic and fluffy than utilitarian. Its role is that it's the generic, vanilla, iconic ship of Star Wars. Like the Rebel Alliance, it's not flashy or sexy or dressed to the nines. So perhaps the right role is to give it 'no role', but let its point cost reflect the status of being a generalist in a game where specialists, when well-played, tend to dominate (like most games).

I don't know what the ultimate fate would be but I do have a feeling if 5 X-Wing squads were feasible...you'd start seeing them. It would share a place with Interceptors as the only conceivable 5 x 3 Red Dice lists available, but be more resilient.

As far as I remember(not currently at home so I can't check), ATC is the only system worth over 4. 1 is not a bunch. But even if we really started to see a bunch of those, the difference is that the Advanced was really overpriced, proven by the fact that we never saw them in tournament play, except for the very very rare occasional Vader. The X-Wing being overpriced by 3 is, as far as I know, an opinion not shared by many. Needing a little boost, yes, but not a 3 points boost.

As you point out this may not be shared my many, but I thought even the Math people said it was only 1.5 over. But, again this is me, we are only talking about a few select pilots not all of them.

So! If only a few generic pilots are over costed by 1.5 points and we apply a fix of -3 point to all X-Wing won't that skew the X-Wing in the other direction causing even more ships to them be over costed?

Which ones are you thinking? Imo the only other over costed ones are the defenders and the generic e's.

You missed my point. If, as some think, only the generic X-Wing is over costed by 1.5 points and you boost all X-Wings (even the ones that are currently good) by twice that, then by doing this any ship that is currently balanced with the X-Wings will drop and by this very action be over costed themselves.

So you mean that only the X Wings which are overpointed (probably the generics) will get access to whatever X Wing fix is released?

But this then becomes a can of worms about which specific named X Wings do people feel should be included in the fix, and then the X still loses out because most named pilots (on any ships) get some kind of price break for their abilities.

Fixing 2 generic X Wings doesnt seem to be much of a solution. All the FFG comments seem to have revolved around the X Wing itself needing a fix. Similar to the Advance. I think I remember most people saying that Vader was still good, even though the rest of the Advanced pilots werent. He got fixed too...

Most people were (imo) wrong about Vader being good

As for X-wing characters, imo none of them are of such high quality that you could break them with a simple fix. Biggs is the big (heh) offender here, but even the likes of Wedge are under-preforming enough to be deserving of a boost. Luke's pretty neat, though, so that may be a point of contention.

I was thinking more about the camp of this argument that says the X-Wing doesn't have a 'role', and that that lack of identity is what needs to get fixed.

I remember being quick to nod my head in agreement when that was mentioned. But the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that might not be right.

Maybe the role of the X-Wing is to not have a role. Or it's role is more aesthetic and fluffy than utilitarian. Its role is that it's the generic, vanilla, iconic ship of Star Wars. Like the Rebel Alliance, it's not flashy or sexy or dressed to the nines. So perhaps the right role is to give it 'no role', but let its point cost reflect the status of being a generalist in a game where specialists, when well-played, tend to dominate (like most games).

I don't know what the ultimate fate would be but I do have a feeling if 5 X-Wing squads were feasible...you'd start seeing them. It would share a place with Interceptors as the only conceivable 5 x 3 Red Dice lists available, but be more resilient.

Roc: this is a good point and it kind of gets to the heart of what this is all about. Everyone has a view on the X Wing, most of the solutions that have been proposed are probably workable. Because the X was such a good all rounder. Even though it was designed as a superiority fighter, if I remember correctly, it was used in a lot of roles by the rebels.

Its a good case for making it cheaper across the board somehow and allowing people to customise it as they see fit. That being more representative than anything else. You just need to somehow provide more customisation options to meet demand.

Well, if what I'm saying is true (or "the right approach" would probably be a better way of putting it), then the following suite of 'fixes' might work:

1. T65b refit. Torpedo slot. If your PS is 4 or less, -2 points. if your PS is 5 or higher, -1 point. This is super-klooge but it gets the job done. EDIT: vis-a-vis Tarn...grumble...I think it will be ok.

2. Introduce an X-Wing only 0 pt. Astromech that reduces the cost of modifications by...probably 1 point? There's nothing under 3 pts that an X-Wing wants anyway, so the minimum useful upgrade would be 2 points.

3. Introduce a next generation of precision-concept Astromechs that also help covers some of the gaps or things you need to makes X's, Y's and Knave/Blackmoon E's competitive in their respective roles. I think we can mostly agree that all 3 of these ships need a little love, or at least certain pilots do, named or otherwise.

This would allow a squadron of 5 Rookie X wings to be fielded with 1 point astromechs, but ensures you don't get any modifications on them. Or 4 Red squadron (or possibly 3 with 1 named pilot), outfitted for various tasks (ie, customized).

So you mean that only the X Wings which are overpointed (probably the generics) will get access to whatever X Wing fix is released?

But this then becomes a can of worms.about which specific named X Wings do people feel should be included in the fix, and then the X still loses out because most named pilots (on any ships) get some kind of price break for their abilities.

Fixing 2 generic X Wings doesnt seem to be much of a solution. All the FFG comments seem to have revolved around the X Wing itself needing a fix. Similar to the Advance. I think I remember most people saying that Vader was still good, even though the rest of the Advanced pilots werent. He got fixed too...

This debate started months ago focused on "fixing" the generics....perhaps this was before your time. I am not surprised it had morphed into now "fixing" the entire ship. And no...this situation is not as similar to the TIE adv as you or others might think it is....the adv was niegh unplayable, vader was hardly considered good...he was barely usable and the other pilots were worthless. The xwing is not at that point...

To address your earlier post about Astromechs and mods...

The fact that mods are available to EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME is why I don't think it should be discounted. If you are going to permanently discount an entire upgrade line you should make sure that the pool of abilities affected is as small as possible regarding both what is already present and what could come in the future. Discounting mods affects every ship in the game as every ship can take them...there are only a handful of ships w systems and even fewer w Astromechs...the mod discount could be xwing only all it wants...that doesn't change the fact that when coming out with a generalist upgrade mod the discount would need to be worked in thereby either making it too cheap on an xwing (possibly making it auto include and removing variety) or overcosting it so much that most ships can't take it.

I am still of the feeling that the xwing weakness is being blown waaaay out of proportion. I don't feel it needs anything but will defer to the designers who know more than I. Didn't they say it only needed a small nudge? Heavily discounting a universal upgrade slot or giving them an extra attack die is hardly a small nudge...I am also against the boost barrel roll idea.

Giving an xwing br won't do anything to get it more use over the bwing...you still get 3 more HP for 1 more point...you aren't helping generics, which I thought was the original intent. I am also against boost because the xwing isn't known for it's speed...not EVERY ship needs to reposition.

So you mean that only the X Wings which are overpointed (probably the generics) will get access to whatever X Wing fix is released?

But this then becomes a can of worms.about which specific named X Wings do people feel should be included in the fix, and then the X still loses out because most named pilots (on any ships) get some kind of price break for their abilities.

Fixing 2 generic X Wings doesnt seem to be much of a solution. All the FFG comments seem to have revolved around the X Wing itself needing a fix. Similar to the Advance. I think I remember most people saying that Vader was still good, even though the rest of the Advanced pilots werent. He got fixed too...

This debate started months ago focused on "fixing" the generics....perhaps this was before your time. I am not surprised it had morphed into now "fixing" the entire ship. And no...this situation is not as similar to the TIE adv as you or others might think it is....the adv was niegh unplayable, vader was hardly considered good...he was barely usable and the other pilots were worthless. The xwing is not at that point...

To address your earlier post about Astromechs and mods...

The fact that mods are available to EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME is why I don't think it should be discounted. If you are going to permanently discount an entire upgrade line you should make sure that the pool of abilities affected is as small as possible regarding both what is already present and what could come in the future. Discounting mods affects every ship in the game as every ship can take them...there are only a handful of ships w systems and even fewer w Astromechs...the mod discount could be xwing only all it wants...that doesn't change the fact that when coming out with a generalist upgrade mod the discount would need to be worked in thereby either making it too cheap on an xwing (possibly making it auto include and removing variety) or overcosting it so much that most ships can't take it.

I am still of the feeling that the xwing weakness is being blown waaaay out of proportion. I don't feel it needs anything but will defer to the designers who know more than I. Didn't they say it only needed a small nudge? Heavily discounting a universal upgrade slot or giving them an extra attack die is hardly a small nudge...I am also against the boost barrel roll idea.

Giving an xwing br won't do anything to get it more use over the bwing...you still get 3 more HP for 1 more point...you aren't helping generics, which I thought was the original intent. I am also against boost because the xwing isn't known for it's speed...not EVERY ship needs to reposition.

Darn I can only like this post once...

As you point out this may not be shared my many, but I thought even the Math people said it was only 1.5 over.

Apparently not all of them. Juggler said earlier that he thinks the X-Wing needs 3 points to be viable. That's why I asked out of curiosity since when, because as far as I can remember, the X-Wing always been considered to be only lagging a little behind(1-2 points), not nearly as bad as the Advanced (4 points) or worst than the A-Wing pre-refit (2 points). I'm really curious about his opinion because I always valued his work, even if I don't always totally agree.

I think what the X-Wing currently suffer the most is from overexageration of his weaknesses. It started with needing a little bone and now have climbed to the position of needing 3 points to be viable. Just like the Phantom, Fat Han and now Soontir are victims of amplification of their power, the X-Wing is now victim of amplification of his weaknesses. But that's alright. Everything will be forgotten in about a week and we'll start anew!

You missed my point. If, as some think, only the generic X-Wing is over costed by 1.5 points and you boost all X-Wings (even the ones that are currently good) by twice that, then by doing this any ship that is currently balanced with the X-Wings will drop and by this very action be over costed themselves.

What Pilots do you think are any good? That is to say, worth taking over similarly pointed options?

So you mean that only the X Wings which are overpointed (probably the generics) will get access to whatever X Wing fix is released?

But this then becomes a can of worms.about which specific named X Wings do people feel should be included in the fix, and then the X still loses out because most named pilots (on any ships) get some kind of price break for their abilities.

Fixing 2 generic X Wings doesnt seem to be much of a solution. All the FFG comments seem to have revolved around the X Wing itself needing a fix. Similar to the Advance. I think I remember most people saying that Vader was still good, even though the rest of the Advanced pilots werent. He got fixed too...

This debate started months ago focused on "fixing" the generics....perhaps this was before your time. I am not surprised it had morphed into now "fixing" the entire ship. And no...this situation is not as similar to the TIE adv as you or others might think it is....the adv was niegh unplayable, vader was hardly considered good...he was barely usable and the other pilots were worthless. The xwing is not at that point...

To address your earlier post about Astromechs and mods...

The fact that mods are available to EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME is why I don't think it should be discounted. If you are going to permanently discount an entire upgrade line you should make sure that the pool of abilities affected is as small as possible regarding both what is already present and what could come in the future. Discounting mods affects every ship in the game as every ship can take them...there are only a handful of ships w systems and even fewer w Astromechs...the mod discount could be xwing only all it wants...that doesn't change the fact that when coming out with a generalist upgrade mod the discount would need to be worked in thereby either making it too cheap on an xwing (possibly making it auto include and removing variety) or overcosting it so much that most ships can't take it.

I am still of the feeling that the xwing weakness is being blown waaaay out of proportion. I don't feel it needs anything but will defer to the designers who know more than I. Didn't they say it only needed a small nudge? Heavily discounting a universal upgrade slot or giving them an extra attack die is hardly a small nudge...I am also against the boost barrel roll idea.

Giving an xwing br won't do anything to get it more use over the bwing...you still get 3 more HP for 1 more point...you aren't helping generics, which I thought was the original intent. I am also against boost because the xwing isn't known for it's speed...not EVERY ship needs to reposition.

Darn I can only like this post once...

Well, I'm liking your post so I can like his twice!

You missed my point. If, as some think, only the generic X-Wing is over costed by 1.5 points and you boost all X-Wings (even the ones that are currently good) by twice that, then by doing this any ship that is currently balanced with the X-Wings will drop and by this very action be over costed themselves.

What Pilots do you think are any good? That is to say, worth taking over similarly pointed options?

In an interview, with Alex Davis if I recall, I believe he said that Tarn was one of the most cost effective/best pilots in the game.

@red lol I think the only reason this thread has gone of for so long is because of a lack of news from ffg. Once something new for x wing is announced this will be forgotten then brought back up later on lol.

@shake you said not every ship needs to reposition and I agree with that! But it seems like ships need to be able to do 1 of 3 things. 1. Reposition. 2. Shoot out of arc. 3. Be cheap enough to swarm with. The x wing is the only ship that doesn't fit into 1 of those 3 things. A out of arc shooting x wing would be ridiculous so I think it either has to be cheaper so we can take more or put more on them or be able to reposition to get shots off and dodge shots. Thoughts?

You missed my point. If, as some think, only the generic X-Wing is over costed by 1.5 points and you boost all X-Wings (even the ones that are currently good) by twice that, then by doing this any ship that is currently balanced with the X-Wings will drop and by this very action be over costed themselves.

What Pilots do you think are any good? That is to say, worth taking over similarly pointed options?

Tarn, Luke, Biggs, Wes, Hobbie(paired with R3-A2 and Dutch, he become a monster), Wedge (need some preparation since he's a premium target everytime, a 4th hull won't be enough to save his hide).

It's all about what you do expect from your pilots. We're at a point in this game where you do need to think about how your list will work. You don't just take a pilot because he's cute, you take him because he's the one for the job. What works for me might not work for you, and vice versa. The example I like to take is the Shuttle: I hate that ship and consider it never worth its points when I take it, I'll take anything over a Shuttle for the same points. But that doesn't mean the ship is overcost, it's just not for me, it's not for my personnal playstyle. And as an opposite, a lot of people seems to think the Defender is overcost, I don't personally think so, it always served me well and gave a performance worthy of the points I paid for it. He might be overcost, but not for me, because he fits my playstyle.

The X-wing already needs 3 points worth of free upgrades to make it viable,so giving a title to make 1 upgrade -3 points is very low risk.

Just out of curiosity, since when does the X-Wing is considered overpriced by 3 points? Is it really in a worst spot than what the A-Wing was before Chardaan Refit? The ship is playable, it could be better, but it is viable. We do see them in some tournaments, unlike the A-Wing and Tie Advanced prior to their fix.

3 points looks more major than what the ship really need. On a Modification, I could understand because they do cost a little more than what you get (But even then, like I said before, you are closing the door to more balanced one in the future) , but on EPTs, Astromech (Again some are currently overpriced, but you would be doing the same thing to them than what you would do to Mods), Torpedoes (remember that a fix is coming that might make them viable and worth their point)?

There is a difference between how much the ship is directly overcosted by (1.5 - 2 points), and how much that equivalent improvement costs in the form of upgrade cards. +1 Hull will essentially "fix" the X-wing. The ship still wouldn't quite be up to the cost efficiency of a TIE Fighter or the new TIE Advanced, but at least it could be competitively palatable. A Hull Upgrade is not actually worth 3 points on an X-wing, but that is what it costs.

This debate started months ago focused on "fixing" the generics....perhaps this was before your time. I am not surprised it had morphed into now "fixing" the entire ship. And no...this situation is not as similar to the TIE adv as you or others might think it is....the adv was niegh unplayable, vader was hardly considered good...he was barely usable and the other pilots were worthless. The xwing is not at that point...

Many of the named pilots have at least as much of an issue as the generics. Biggs and Wedge are the best of the bunch, Luke is OK, (Edit: Tarn + R7 is OK) the rest... meh. A couple of the named pilots are overcosted even more than the generics. See my MathWing thread for details.

@red lol I think the only reason this thread has gone of for so long is because of a lack of news from ffg. Once something new for x wing is announced this will be forgotten then brought back up later on lol.

Tell me about it! Come on FFG! Give us some news so we can move on!

There is a difference between how much the ship is directly overcosted by (1.5 - 2 points), and how much that equivalent improvement costs in the form of upgrade cards. +1 Hull will essentially "fix" the X-wing. The ship still wouldn't quite be up to the cost efficiency of a TIE Fighter or the new TIE Advanced, but at least it could be competitively palatable. A Hull Upgrade is not actually worth 3 points on an X-wing, but that is what it costs.

I can get behind the idea that most mods are not really worth their price, but you suggested earlier a 3 points deduction for any one upgrade. It implies also astromech and EPT. Are you saying that you also think that all EPTs are not worth their value?

In an interview, with Alex Davis if I recall, I believe he said that Tarn was one of the most cost effective/best pilots in the game.

That's one of 8 named Pilots. Biggs is used, but in spite of the ship he's flying, because of his ability. Wedge never really survives long enough to deal enough damage, Same with Janson.

Porkins, Hobbie and Garven are a joke.

Luke with R2D2 or as Stresswing are usable, but very expensive.

@shake you said not every ship needs to reposition and I agree with that! But it seems like ships need to be able to do 1 of 3 things. 1. Reposition. 2. Shoot out of arc. 3. Be cheap enough to swarm with.

Well said, and something I've been saying in these threads for a while now.

There are 3 ships that can't either shoot out of arc or reposition. The Z-95, the X-Wing and the Lambda Shuttle. The Z-95 and the Lambada are both rather cheap for what you get, the Lambda being the same cost as a X-Wing for more hull and shields, and better upgrades, but a worse dial.

As you point out shooting out of arc doesn't fit, and FFG won't change the price directly.

That's why IMO the best fix is a title that grants a discount to the modification slot, and a new modification that adds a barrel roll action, the same way Engine Upgrade does a boost. Then you can really customize a X-Wing effectively.

Want more hull or shields, you can do that. Want to reposition, you can do that. But since you're limited to one option then it is a fairly small boost in power, which is all the X-Wing needs.

There is a difference between how much the ship is directly overcosted by (1.5 - 2 points), and how much that equivalent improvement costs in the form of upgrade cards. +1 Hull will essentially "fix" the X-wing. The ship still wouldn't quite be up to the cost efficiency of a TIE Fighter or the new TIE Advanced, but at least it could be competitively palatable. A Hull Upgrade is not actually worth 3 points on an X-wing, but that is what it costs.

I can get behind the idea that most mods are not really worth their price, but you suggested earlier a 3 points deduction for any one upgrade. It implies also astromech and EPT. Are you saying that you also think that all EPTs are not worth their value?

Some of the EPTs are a good value on the named pilots, so if the design intent is to just make the X-wing all-around better without making the named pilots proportionally better after the fix than the generics, then that is a good argument for simply giving the X-wing 1 hull straight up (the "boring" fix), or at least restricting the -3 cost on only modifications.

I would have to run some more details numbers on it, to see what the cost effectiveness would be for various pilot loadouts with -3 points towards an EPT or more commonly R2-D2.

Edit: In general this would probably result in some of the named pilots getting about an extra point worth of value out of it than the generics would see from simply taking a Hull Upgrade. I don't like designing generics that are instantly obsolete compared to the named pilots, so I could easily be convinced to do the more "boring" fix to be safe. That is currently what is in my House Rules. I do expect FFG to release some new astromechs while they are at it though, because that seems like a very FFG-ish and lore-appropriate thing to do.

@atomic

Out of those 3 options making it a bit cheaper would be more palatable...but it should be done from a points efficiency standpoint. That's why I find the Astromech idea the most palatable..it makes the ship more efficient without directly lowering the base cost and it affects the fewest number of possible upgrades. It's also the best fit with the lore as far as I am concerned...Agrees on an out of arc shot being utterly stupid.

@juggler

I don't really have a head for numbers...while I have great respect for your work and the data it adds to the discussion I don't feel it is always right. I haven't spent much time in your mathwing thread as all I can make out is a wall of numbers. Not all pilots will be maximum efficient or competitive in a 100 pt game...nor should they be. You were able to name 4 usable viable pilots out of the 9 specials. That's not bad, pretty **** good for a wave 1 ship actually...that's better than alot of ships and the rather super abilities of wedge and Biggs would need to be accounted for if the "fix" affected them too. Could the numbers be better? Sure...but it shouldn't come at the cost of limiting upgrade and design opportunities further on down the road...not every ship can approach the tie fighters efficiency, and not every ship can blow up as easily...

You were able to name 4 usable viable pilots out of the 9 specials.

I was speaking more relative to all of the other X-wing pilots in the group. I would not generally recommend taking them competitively as they stand right now.

Yes, that is the corner that FFG has backed themselves into by making some really good pilots relative to some of the others of the saem ship. They can never balance all the pilots out relative to each other within the same ship class. Biggs and Wedge will always be the top dog no matter what.

I got around this in my House Rules by making the "free +1 hull" cost 1 point for Biggs and Wedge, and 0 for everyone else. Because, you can get away with anything for House Rules.

Lol I'd love to see the card, t65b, x wing only, 0 points* unless you're Biggs or wedge then you gotta pay!

Is it better for Biggs and Wedge to be slightly overpowered, or most other X-wings underpowered?

@atomic

Out of those 3 options making it a bit cheaper would be more palatable...but it should be done from a points efficiency standpoint. That's why I find the Astromech idea the most palatable..it makes the ship more efficient without directly lowering the base cost and it affects the fewest number of possible upgrades. It's also the best fit with the lore as far as I am concerned...Agrees on an out of arc shot being utterly stupid.

But using an astromech upgrade to make the X Wing points efficient as you put it, simply makes some astromechs (the good ones) an auto include and you are forcing players to either take an astromech or to use the overpointed basic X Wing. I guess if there was a droid upgrade that reduced the points of the ship (such as has been suggested) you could reduce cost that way, but Im not sure that fits with the points efficiency thing. There would have to be a really attractive generic astromech otherwise, which for 1-2 points of improvement seems a stretch.

Chaardan Refit basically reduced the cost of all upgrades for the A Wing by -2 in trade for the missile slot, but it didnt force players to take one kind of upgrade only.

Surely giving the player more choice how they use their ships should be the aim, as that creates build diversity.