@Atomicfryingpan

I'll be short because I'm on my phone and hate typing on that. Variety and flexibility, for me at least, needs to be more than either more health or boost. There is hardly a choice to be made here. So yeah, I think that the astromech offer a lot more choice and flexibilty. It is also easier to include more droids than mod since it only impact 3 ships instead of 21 and raising. Bonus point for it being thematic. Basic "boost" can be generic astromech, more flavorful one unique. I actually don't understand the argument about droids needing to be unique, there is currently 3(?) astromech that anyone can take, why is it unthinkable to make more?

@phocion

Yeah, I won't even bother answering to all that. I'll just end this discussion by saying that, while it might be for you, it's not the first time this discussion about the X-Wing been had. We just had it a week ago. And it will come back later until we actually know what FFG will do about it. That's the forum circle for you. So while I might seem like an old stubborn guy with his idea already made, that's because I actually had the time to think about it and make up my mind. It's not the first thread where Atomic proposed his mod idea. It's not the first time a lot of those ideas been posted. My opinion was already made about them because I already saw them before. But you know what, whatever the decision FFG decide to take on this matter, I'll be okay with it because I thrust in their good judgement. In the end, I really don't care. But since it has been said that they do look in those forum from time to time, I'll continue to oppose the idea I personally don't favor, because I don't want them to think that everybody is okay with it. A good discussion also needs some oppositions.

Now, I wish you a good day, and feel free to ignore my messages as much as you like from now on.

But then you are closing the door to the option of making modifications actually worth their points. You will have to always take into consideration that there is one ship that have a 3 points discount over them. It is true that most modification cost more than their printed value, but I would like to continue to see some be correctly priced while not risking making the X-Wing too good.

Unfortunately, it is all but mathematically impossible to make a modification that is costed correctly for generics without that same modification simultaneously being overpowered on named pilots or other ships. Modifications always provide the most benefit to more expensive ships. The converse is true of cost reductions, where cost reductions help lower-priced ships even further, as it represents a larger percentage of total ship cost.

Edit: that said, I do like the idea of a title card for the X-wing that decreases the cost of one upgrade card by 3 points, to a minimum of 0. It's a free Hull Upgrade for the generics, or a 1 point Engine Upgrade or 1 point R2-D2 on a named pilot.

@Redcastle hey it's all fun discussion between passionate players! I'm just glad we have a community with people who really do care about this stuff and want to talk about it! I always enjoy the discussions

@Redcastle hey it's all fun discussion between passionate players! I'm just glad we have a community with people who really do care about this stuff and want to talk about it! I always enjoy the discussions

Agreed

RedCastle: I have honestly enjoyed this thread as I mentioned before and I valued your opposition in case you couldnt tell. You have certainly got me thinking about this topic . I think passionate viewpoints are a must and people have to have the guts to argue their points. So kudos to you. I'd hate to think you are feeling put out because I am disagreeing with some of what you have said. I might be a tenacious and overenthusiastic SOB but I wasnt trying to be offensive.

BTW: You are right. It is the first time I have heard a lot of this stuff and its also the first time I have had the time to follow a thread like this for a long while.

@Redcastle hey it's all fun discussion between passionate players! I'm just glad we have a community with people who really do care about this stuff and want to talk about it! I always enjoy the discussions

As I do. But being called a troll, being accused of being a stubborn guy unopened to change or making me sound like a broken record just because I'm against an idea is not my kind of fun. Sometimes, you're better to just let it go and start ignoring.

Now, I'm off for some X-Wing time.

But then you are closing the door to the option of making modifications actually worth their points. You will have to always take into consideration that there is one ship that have a 3 points discount over them. It is true that most modification cost more than their printed value, but I would like to continue to see some be correctly priced while not risking making the X-Wing too good.

Unfortunately, it is all but mathematically impossible to make a modification that is costed correctly for generics without that same modification simultaneously being overpowered on named pilots or other ships. Modifications always provide the most benefit to more expensive ships. The converse is true of cost reductions, where cost reductions help lower-priced ships even further, as it represents a larger percentage of total ship cost.

Edit: that said, I do like the idea of a title card for the X-wing that decreases the cost of one upgrade card by 3 points, to a minimum of 0. It's a free Hull Upgrade for the generics, or a 1 point Engine Upgrade or 1 point R2-D2 on a named pilot.

Why do you suggest that the X-wing needs an upgrade equal to 3 points for free? Surely the X-Wing was not as bad as the Tie Advanced was before the buff.

I just read through most of what I have missed. That being said, I saw the suggestion for the -3 cost to an astromech or an upgrade and thought about how great it could be to run an X-wing with repositioning abilities, an R2 astro and PtL and not be force to sacrifice the PS or ship type of another in my squad to pay for it.

Off the top of my head some Pilots who benefit (all with PtL+R2+Engine-3)

Wedge (31) was 34

Wes (31) was 34

Luke (30) was 33

Porkins (28) was 31

Garven {using R2-D6 now} (28)

Biggs (27)

Hobbie (27)

Red (26)

At which point the rookie becomes 22 points of repositioning goodness. (Delete need for R2 astromech).

Obviously most of the Rebel astromechs could then also be taken for free, save for Artoo, which for some lists, trying to fit in a single point on an X-wing for R2 astromechs is a real pain even when I am not taking all of the crazy upgrades.

But then you are closing the door to the option of making modifications actually worth their points. You will have to always take into consideration that there is one ship that have a 3 points discount over them. It is true that most modification cost more than their printed value, but I would like to continue to see some be correctly priced while not risking making the X-Wing too good.

Unfortunately, it is all but mathematically impossible to make a modification that is costed correctly for generics without that same modification simultaneously being overpowered on named pilots or other ships. Modifications always provide the most benefit to more expensive ships. The converse is true of cost reductions, where cost reductions help lower-priced ships even further, as it represents a larger percentage of total ship cost.

Edit: that said, I do like the idea of a title card for the X-wing that decreases the cost of one upgrade card by 3 points, to a minimum of 0. It's a free Hull Upgrade for the generics, or a 1 point Engine Upgrade or 1 point R2-D2 on a named pilot.

Why do you suggest that the X-wing needs an upgrade equal to 3 points for free? Surely the X-Wing was not as bad as the Tie Advanced was before the buff.

X-wings need +1 hull to make them palatable across the board. Making it reduce the cost of a modification instead of a straight-up hull gives some more flexibility to do things like Engine Upgrade for only one point more, which Wedge is begging for. Some of the named pilots still won't be useful, but such is life.

It was Sozin's idea, actually. Scum and Villainy podcast had me on for one of their interview series, and sozin (Lyle) mentioned it, I thought it was a good idea.

But then you are closing the door to the option of making modifications actually worth their points. You will have to always take into consideration that there is one ship that have a 3 points discount over them. It is true that most modification cost more than their printed value, but I would like to continue to see some be correctly priced while not risking making the X-Wing too good.

Unfortunately, it is all but mathematically impossible to make a modification that is costed correctly for generics without that same modification simultaneously being overpowered on named pilots or other ships. Modifications always provide the most benefit to more expensive ships. The converse is true of cost reductions, where cost reductions help lower-priced ships even further, as it represents a larger percentage of total ship cost.

Edit: that said, I do like the idea of a title card for the X-wing that decreases the cost of one upgrade card by 3 points, to a minimum of 0. It's a free Hull Upgrade for the generics, or a 1 point Engine Upgrade or 1 point R2-D2 on a named pilot.

Why do you suggest that the X-wing needs an upgrade equal to 3 points for free? Surely the X-Wing was not as bad as the Tie Advanced was before the buff.

The Tie Advance gets a 4 point discount, so the X-wing is obviously better off

not to mention the differences between a system upgrade and a modification upgrade are pretty vast, but the systems mostly deal with offense (apart from SJ, we have FCS, AC, Sensors, and the new ATC) while mods are mostly defensive or utility (hull, shield, stealth, engine, experimental)

But then you are closing the door to the option of making modifications actually worth their points. You will have to always take into consideration that there is one ship that have a 3 points discount over them. It is true that most modification cost more than their printed value, but I would like to continue to see some be correctly priced while not risking making the X-Wing too good.

Unfortunately, it is all but mathematically impossible to make a modification that is costed correctly for generics without that same modification simultaneously being overpowered on named pilots or other ships. Modifications always provide the most benefit to more expensive ships. The converse is true of cost reductions, where cost reductions help lower-priced ships even further, as it represents a larger percentage of total ship cost.

Edit: that said, I do like the idea of a title card for the X-wing that decreases the cost of one upgrade card by 3 points, to a minimum of 0. It's a free Hull Upgrade for the generics, or a 1 point Engine Upgrade or 1 point R2-D2 on a named pilot.

Why do you suggest that the X-wing needs an upgrade equal to 3 points for free? Surely the X-Wing was not as bad as the Tie Advanced was before the buff.

X-wings need +1 hull to make them palatable across the board. Making it reduce the cost of a modification instead of a straight-up hull gives some more flexibility to do things like Engine Upgrade for only one point more, which Wedge is begging for. Some of the named pilots still won't be useful, but such is life.

It was Sozin's idea, actually. Scum and Villainy podcast had me on for one of their interview series, and sozin (Lyle) mentioned it, I thought it was a good idea.

Having finally gotten through this thread I am going to have to say that if any of these ideas were implemented the astromech idea is the best. You are given more options as to what YOU want the ship to do and it would affect the fewest ships as far as future releases are concerned. The issue with the mod idea is that mods affect EVERYONE and all new mods would need to take this discount info account on their pricing...as if trying to price it in line with every other ship in the game isn't difficult enough. The idea is quite a bit more dangerous than atomic realizes in my opinion (and that don't change the fact he's one if my favorite posters.) It would he far easier and smoother to tailor new astromechs to this kind of upgrade as opposed to mods...due fully to the smaller roster of ships affected.

But then you are closing the door to the option of making modifications actually worth their points. You will have to always take into consideration that there is one ship that have a 3 points discount over them. It is true that most modification cost more than their printed value, but I would like to continue to see some be correctly priced while not risking making the X-Wing too good.

Unfortunately, it is all but mathematically impossible to make a modification that is costed correctly for generics without that same modification simultaneously being overpowered on named pilots or other ships. Modifications always provide the most benefit to more expensive ships. The converse is true of cost reductions, where cost reductions help lower-priced ships even further, as it represents a larger percentage of total ship cost.

Edit: that said, I do like the idea of a title card for the X-wing that decreases the cost of one upgrade card by 3 points, to a minimum of 0. It's a free Hull Upgrade for the generics, or a 1 point Engine Upgrade or 1 point R2-D2 on a named pilot.

Why do you suggest that the X-wing needs an upgrade equal to 3 points for free? Surely the X-Wing was not as bad as the Tie Advanced was before the buff.

X-wings need +1 hull to make them palatable across the board. Making it reduce the cost of a modification instead of a straight-up hull gives some more flexibility to do things like Engine Upgrade for only one point more, which Wedge is begging for. Some of the named pilots still won't be useful, but such is life.

It was Sozin's idea, actually. Scum and Villainy podcast had me on for one of their interview series, and sozin (Lyle) mentioned it, I thought it was a good idea.

Having finally gotten through this thread I am going to have to say that if any of these ideas were implemented the astromech idea is the best. You are given more options as to what YOU want the ship to do and it would affect the fewest ships as far as future releases are concerned. The issue with the mod idea is that mods affect EVERYONE and all new mods would need to take this discount info account on their pricing...as if trying to price it in line with every other ship in the game isn't difficult enough. The idea is quite a bit more dangerous than atomic realizes in my opinion (and that don't change the fact he's one if my favorite posters.) It would he far easier and smoother to tailor new astromechs to this kind of upgrade as opposed to mods...due fully to the smaller roster of ships affected.

Giving a free astromech won't fix the X-wings.

I think you mis-understand the idea behind the -3 cost idea. It would be X-wing only and would work on any upgrade (modification, astromech, elite pilot slot, or even torpedo). It would be something like this:

T-65 X-wing.

Title. X-wing only.

Reduce the cost of any one upgrade by 3 points, to a minimum of 0.

I don't think I mis understanding anything...

Your suggestions is even more drastic...it means they have to account title into the cost of every new upgrade they make now...

Your idea sounds good on paper...bit it makes me and a few others concerned about balance and pricing issues in the future.

EDIT TO ADD: it may be xwing only...but that really doesn't change the fact that it will be need to taken into account when developing any new upgrade that MIGHT POSSIBLY be usable on the xwing...it's introducing a MASSIVE variable that doesn't need to be there...

I don't think I mis understanding anything...

Your suggestions is even more drastic...it means they have to account title into the cost of every new upgrade they make now...

Your idea sounds good on paper...bit it makes me and a few others concerned about balance and pricing issues in the future.

The safest thing is certainly to just give all X-wings +1 hull. It is also the least interesting option.

The X-wing already needs 3 points worth of free upgrades to make it viable,so giving a title to make 1 upgrade -3 points is very low risk. Sure, they could come out with some new upgrade in the future that's insanely overpowered for its cost for 3+ points, and that would make the X-wing too good, but it would also make every single other ship in the game that can equip that upgrade too good as well.

There's really no issue. If you take upgrade [X] instead of [Hull Upgrade], then sure, you get [upgrade X], but now you're down 1 hull. No free lunch.

Edit: the closest thing that FFG has done to the scenario that you describe, is with Accuracy Corrector, which is mathematically auto-include on any 2 attack ship that is worth at least 15 points and has a System Slot. (Unless there is something better like Advanced Targeting Computer) They obviously must have had the TIE Advanced in mind when they designed this card, but in the meantime they have reduced their future design space. If they ever want to make a 2 attack ship with a System Slot, then they just have to accept that it is always going to take Accuracy Corrector by default. But that's a different story. In that case they are actually creating new content that universally breaks the game if they are not careful. The X-wing fix suggested here is just a cost reduction.

Sure, they could come out with some new upgrade in the future that's insanely overpowered for its cost for 3+ points, and that would make the X-wing too good, but it would also make every single other ship in the game that can equip that upgrade too good as well.

They could just, you know, pull an "Advanced Cloaking Device" and make an X-Wing only modification.

Sure, they could come out with some new upgrade in the future that's insanely overpowered for its cost for 3+ points, and that would make the X-wing too good, but it would also make every single other ship in the game that can equip that upgrade too good as well.

They could just, you know, pull an "Advanced Cloaking Device" and make an X-Wing only modification.

Though at that point, there's not much difference between that and an X-Wing Title other than the fact that a modification prevents you from taking EU, SU, etc.

Juggler,

I guess it just comes down to perspective then...I don't want to see them limit their future design space to "fix" a temporary problem...

And that is what I could see being a possibility if yours or atomics idea were to fly. It's not that the wing would get something for.free...it's the possibility that other ships might get prices out of certain upgrades to when this bonus is being factored into the costs...

The X-wing already needs 3 points worth of free upgrades to make it viable,so giving a title to make 1 upgrade -3 points is very low risk.

Giving a free astromech won't fix the X-wings.

It seems to have work with the Tie Advanced to only give it a System Upgrade discount. Similar result can be achieve with the Astromech.

What's the 2 System Upgrade that the Tie Advanced will end up using? Accuracy Corrector and Advanced Targetting Computer. One that came with wave 6 and the other that will come with the title. So there is nothing preventing them to make some more astromech that will give the X-Wing the little boost it needs. System Upgrade and Astromech are close in fonctionality, Astromech just have the problem of being from wave 1 instead of 3 (Best exemple being R5-K6 vs Fire Control System). But looking at some astromech from the transport, or the salvaged ones, they can come with some very good abilities too.

Giving a free astromech can fix the X-Wings. You just have to be creative.

@shake I see the point about every ship being able to take modifications vs the fewer ships that can take systems. I don't think any new system slots are going to be really put up against system slot discount and we start seeing a bunch of 5+ point systems.

As far as I remember(not currently at home so I can't check), ATC is the only system worth over 4. 1 is not a bunch. But even if we really started to see a bunch of those, the difference is that the Advanced was really overpriced, proven by the fact that we never saw them in tournament play, except for the very very rare occasional Vader. The X-Wing being overpriced by 3 is, as far as I know, an opinion not shared by many. Needing a little boost, yes, but not a 3 points boost.

Shake: I get most of your reasoning. But if the X Wing gets a discount on a single mod card this will most likely be through a title, or something similar, like they did with the Advanced and A Wing. Pricing and balancing any new mods would only be affected in that the Xs with a title could get them cheaper, in the same way that the Advanced with title can get systems slots cheaper. This would affect generics and uniques. I get that there are fewer systems and droid slots going around, but the number of ships with systems, as well as those with droids will increase with new releases. So FFG are already willing to put the effort in to balance such a method as they did this for the Advanced. We have faction and ship specific upgrades already. Why couldn't an X Wing limited upgrade work within this setup? For example, it would specifically balance a mod that bumped the X Wing's firepower, or adding an action or upgrade slot to the X, preventing other ships from exploiting that card.

Restricting any solution to just the astromech slot limits what can conceivably be achieved for the X. While discounted anything is cool, I don't see how an astromech alone can fix the X wing's issue. I think it would be a struggle to give the X some kind of repositioning ability that made sense through an astromech for example. Also you would need lots more astromech cards with lots more options which becomes more of a play test and balance issue.

I love X-Wings. I just love B-Wings more.

As far as I remember(not currently at home so I can't check), ATC is the only system worth over 4. 1 is not a bunch. But even if we really started to see a bunch of those, the difference is that the Advanced was really overpriced, proven by the fact that we never saw them in tournament play, except for the very very rare occasional Vader. The X-Wing being overpriced by 3 is, as far as I know, an opinion not shared by many. Needing a little boost, yes, but not a 3 points boost.

As you point out this may not be shared my many, but I thought even the Math people said it was only 1.5 over. But, again this is me, we are only talking about a few select pilots not all of them.

So! If only a few generic pilots are over costed by 1.5 points and we apply a fix of -3 point to all X-Wing won't that skew the X-Wing in the other direction causing even more ships to them be over costed?

As far as I remember(not currently at home so I can't check), ATC is the only system worth over 4. 1 is not a bunch. But even if we really started to see a bunch of those, the difference is that the Advanced was really overpriced, proven by the fact that we never saw them in tournament play, except for the very very rare occasional Vader. The X-Wing being overpriced by 3 is, as far as I know, an opinion not shared by many. Needing a little boost, yes, but not a 3 points boost.

As you point out this may not be shared my many, but I thought even the Math people said it was only 1.5 over. But, again this is me, we are only talking about a few select pilots not all of them.

So! If only a few generic pilots are over costed by 1.5 points and we apply a fix of -3 point to all X-Wing won't that skew the X-Wing in the other direction causing even more ships to them be over costed?

Which ones are you thinking? Imo the only other over costed ones are the defenders and the generic e's.