Didn't say its a bad thing. I'm happy to get fixes and new content together in aces or similar expansions and a model like this is a reason to release trickles of new stuff to keep the game fresh and interesting. FFG is a business, they need our money and if that means they use this particular model over others I don't have a problem.

The people saying the E-wing is fine are wrong.

The generics are definitely too expensive, the StarViper (a highly analogous and flat out better ship) is clear evidence of that. The E-wing certainly doesn't have six points over the supposedly already too expensive X-wing either.

However, I question how well the E-wing generics will ever do, I suppose we'll be able to see from the performance of Black Sun Enforcer. The thing about the E-wing is that it's a pricey ship and a ship you generally want to kit out. And if you're kitting out a ship, you usually, Omicron nonwithstanding, want to push up to.a named pilot: nobody loads up a Knave Squadron Pilot or Patrol Leader.

It's also something of an arc dodger. We don't see cheap TIE interceptors because arc dodgers live and die by pilot skill and if you're using them for anything else you're better off with another ship, same goes for E-wings. The generics have nothing going for them: if you want to block take the A-wing, if you want to brawl take the B-wing or X-wing, if you want to arc dodge you want the pilot skill.

even then I believe the FCS + R7 Knave has far more place in the game than the rookie ever has

Costs more than Wedge. Is that really better than Wedge?

The people saying the E-wing is fine are wrong.

The generics are definitely too expensive, the StarViper (a highly analogous and flat out better ship) is clear evidence of that. The E-wing certainly doesn't have six points over the supposedly already too expensive X-wing either.

However, I question how well the E-wing generics will ever do, I suppose we'll be able to see from the performance of Black Sun Enforcer. The thing about the E-wing is that it's a pricey ship and a ship you generally want to kit out. And if you're kitting out a ship, you usually want to push up to.a named pilot: nobody loads up a Knave Squadron Pilot.

It's also something of an arc dodger. We don't see cheap TIE interceptors because arc dodgers live and die by pilot skill and if you're using them for anything else you're better off with another ship, same goes for E-wings. The generics have nothing going for them: if you want to block take the A-wing, if you want to brawl take the B-wing or X-wing, if you want to arc dodge you want the pilot skill.

You could be right. Instead of trying to fix the (overpriced) generics, the "fix" might just be more named pilots with abilities that work well at their PS, probably incorporating a small cost break like the TIE Interceptor pilots from Rebel Imperial Aces.

like the TIE Interceptor pilots from Rebel Aces.

dem defectors yo

The people saying the E-wing is fine are wrong.

The generics are definitely too expensive, the StarViper (a highly analogous and flat out better ship) is clear evidence of that. The E-wing certainly doesn't have six points over the supposedly already too expensive X-wing either.

However, I question how well the E-wing generics will ever do, I suppose we'll be able to see from the performance of Black Sun Enforcer. The thing about the E-wing is that it's a pricey ship and a ship you generally want to kit out. And if you're kitting out a ship, you usually want to push up to.a named pilot: nobody loads up a Knave Squadron Pilot.

It's also something of an arc dodger. We don't see cheap TIE interceptors because arc dodgers live and die by pilot skill and if you're using them for anything else you're better off with another ship, same goes for E-wings. The generics have nothing going for them: if you want to block take the A-wing, if you want to brawl take the B-wing or X-wing, if you want to arc dodge you want the pilot skill.

You could be right. Instead of trying to fix the (overpriced) generics, the "fix" might just be more named pilots with abilities that work well at their PS, probably incorporating a small cost break like the TIE Interceptor pilots from Rebel Aces.

That would be a fix I could get on-board with. It could up the showing of the particular type of ship and not deal with unintended conflicts or fixing generics.

See I can be flexible too

The E-wing is closest to the X-wing's current state, but even then I believe the FCS + R7 Knave has far more place in the game than the rookie ever has

"Ever has?" "Far more?"

The Knave is a terrible ship for the point cost. It's made exactly one appearance in the store championship lists currently. The rookie has made twelve (usually as part of a rebel swarm or with R3-A2). The E-wing use that you see is almost exclusively because of Corran Horn. Even with him, the Ewing % use lists that make it to elimination doesn't match the X-wing (see List Juggler)

It's really not even close, especially when you look in the past, when a very competitive list know as "Han Shoots First" was made up of two rookie pilots as support for Han. Of course, at that time, there weren't other options as filler until the B-Wing started to replace the X-wing. But still, more recently, rebel control lists at World's featured the 23 point rookie with R3A2.

Other than Corran Horn, the Ewing has never been the staple of a competitive list and won't be until they get fixed (and hopefully it won't be something that helps Horn).

I'm not saying the X-wing doesn't need something (I'd like to see it used at least as much as the Z and B), but the base E-wing (probably due to Horn) is way overcosted.

You could be right. Instead of trying to fix the (overpriced) generics, the "fix" might just be more named pilots with abilities that work well at their PS, probably incorporating a small cost break like the TIE Interceptor pilots from Rebel Aces.

The X-wing currently has more named pilots than any other ship. I'm not sure it's a good design idea to introduce more named pilots, especially those that might push out the more recognizable names like Luke and Wedge.

The only Imperial Ace named pilot that sees the table at all is Carnor Jax. Two of the pilots from IA came without an EPT, probably because it was assumed with their cost break that would be too much (though I think it's clear that wouldn't have been the case). The Royal Guard was a solid choice for awhile, too, of course, and will hopefully see the table more now, but that was actually a generic.

Next time there's an interview someone should ask what the rationale behind the costing of the E-wing and Defender (particularly the E-wing) was. We're all fairly sure at least the E-wing costs way more than it's worth and most think the Defender's a bit on the pricey side (although not enough to cripple it, after being shredded by two of them yesterday I know not to underestimate the things) but it's also not as if the designers don't know what they're doing: they have a very deep understanding of the game. So there's got to be a reason it came out that expensive from playtesting.

The X-wing currently has more named pilots than any other ship.

Eight. Then it's the TIE interceptor at seven, the TIE advanced at six, the A-wing, B-wing and Aggressor have four (although the Aggressor has no generics), the larges and HWKs at three and the rest have two. The E-wing's in the final group.

You could be right. Instead of trying to fix the (overpriced) generics, the "fix" might just be more named pilots with abilities that work well at their PS, probably incorporating a small cost break like the TIE Interceptor pilots from Rebel Aces.

The X-wing currently has more named pilots than any other ship.

Sorry, TIE Pilot and I were talking about new named E-wing pilots. I'd still like to see a viable generic pilot, but he made a good point, and I can see this being a big part of (if not all of) an FFG effort to get the E-wing into higher circulation.

The E-wing is the one small based ship I only ever got one of.

Next time there's an interview someone should ask what the rationale behind the costing of the E-wing and Defender (particularly the E-wing) was. We're all fairly sure at least the E-wing costs way more than it's worth and most think the Defender's a bit on the pricey side (although not enough to cripple it, after being shredded by two of them yesterday I know not to underestimate the things) but it's also not as if the designers don't know what they're doing: they have a very deep understanding of the game. So there's got to be a reason it came out that expensive from playtesting.

I want to know why they are still releasing 2nd tier generic pilots at PS 3-5 without EPTs. There is literally no reason to take them besides one card: Predator.

Only reason to get multiple E-wings is for Advanced Sensors. Cheaper than the shuttle!

The E-wing is closest to the X-wing's current state, but even then I believe the FCS + R7 Knave has far more place in the game than the rookie ever has

"Ever has?" "Far more?"

The Knave is a terrible ship for the point cost. It's made exactly one appearance in the store championship lists currently. The rookie has made twelve (usually as part of a rebel swarm or with R3-A2). The E-wing use that you see is almost exclusively because of Corran Horn. Even with him, the Ewing % use lists that make it to elimination doesn't match the X-wing (see List Juggler)

It's really not even close, especially when you look in the past, when a very competitive list know as "Han Shoots First" was made up of two rookie pilots as support for Han. Of course, at that time, there weren't other options as filler until the B-Wing started to replace the X-wing. But still, more recently, rebel control lists at World's featured the 23 point rookie with R3A2.

Other than Corran Horn, the Ewing has never been the staple of a competitive list and won't be until they get fixed (and hopefully it won't be something that helps Horn).

I'm not saying the X-wing doesn't need something (I'd like to see it used at least as much as the Z and B), but the base E-wing (probably due to Horn) is way overcosted.

Yeah you're right, "ever has" is complete over kill

it's more of a recent thing that has been clouding my hindsight. The rise of four dice attacks, almost all of them highly modified, have strong armed the non-Luke, non-Tarn X-wings firmly off of my tables. The FCS, R7 E-wing, though, is surprisingly resilient to this form of offense even with it is a lowly PS 1 Knave

You never know when those 3-5s might be useful, they're leaving the option there. Dagger Squadron Pilot used to be very common. But I agree, right now 2pt for 2PS isn't worth it. Still, since Wave 4 the only ones we've had are Hired Gun (to mirror the Rebel Y-wing) and Black Sun Vigo (extra PS on a repositional ship).

That being said, Onyx is still as awful as its card art.

Tansaari Point Veteran breaks the mould though and hopefully is a sign of things to come. We'll see how it turns out once everything's hit the table for a bit and we see how well the mathematical predictions hold up.

You never know when those 3-5s might be useful, they're leaving the option there. Dagger Squadron Pilot used to be very common. But I agree, right now 2pt for 2PS isn't worth it. Still, since Wave 4 the only ones we've had are Hired Gun (to mirror the Rebel Y-wing) and Black Sun Vigo (extra PS on a repositional ship).

That being said, Onyx is still as awful as its card art.

Tansaari Point Veteran breaks the mould though and hopefully is a sign of things to come. We'll see how it turns out once everything's hit the table for a bit and we see how well the mathematical predictions hold up.

TP isn't a mold breaker apart from its +1 PS over the normal cost of PS (should be four going by the 2 points for +2 PS on non-Tie, non-Z95 ships). The question now is if that PS 5 is terribly useful, or if its really that EPT slot that sets it apart (which it gets following along with the Green Squadron Pilot, or the Saber Squadron/Royal Guard pilots although they follow a weird PS pricing)

The problem with the Tansaari is that as soon as you put a decent EPT on it, its 20 points. Then if you want to add a cannon you are over 25 points for a 3 HP ship with basically a Tie Fighter dial. I'd love to run a couple with Predator and Mangler, but **** they are 26 points. B-wings would laugh at them, then blow them up.

You are really paying 2 points for 3 PS and 1 point for the EPT over the CS. Its ok.. Should have only been 2 points and kept them at 16.

The BSP is only 2 points more than an Academy, gets an EPT and +3 PS. FFG just doesn't want to be consistent I guess.

You could be right. Instead of trying to fix the (overpriced) generics, the "fix" might just be more named pilots with abilities that work well at their PS, probably incorporating a small cost break like the TIE Interceptor pilots from Rebel Aces.

The X-wing currently has more named pilots than any other ship.

Sorry, TIE Pilot and I were talking about new named E-wing pilots. I'd still like to see a viable generic pilot, but he made a good point, and I can see this being a big part of (if not all of) an FFG effort to get the E-wing into higher circulation.

No problem. My mistake as I apparently got a bit lost in the discussion.

Also, semantics! Fix, solution, boost, upgrade, improvement, love... They are pretty interchangeable in this context.

It was not semantic, you just need to read the rest of the paragraph to understand what I meant. I think that it is currently fine and just need a little something, what you seems to need is a major change. Example, a fourth attack dice is not just a pat on the back, it's a major boost to the ship. It's not making it the all around fighter it is supposed to be, it's making it one of the deadliest ship in the game. People would not take it because it is versatile, it would take it because it hit like a truck.

We both agree that the X needs 1-2 points of (insert word here). We just disagree in terms of how we think it is best to fill those1-2 points.

At this point, I am a little confuse about where you stand. Here you agree that it just needs about 1-2 points. Yet, a couple post earlier, you agree about a 3 points reduction fix and even go as far as making a message just to say how much you love the idea.

I am willing to look deeper than just throwing a quick droid fix on it, giving it a pat on the butt and throwing it back out there, which is why I'm happy to discuss other things you might not quite like. Everyone is going to find their own equilibrium on this matter, which on such a well represented (fluff-wise), multi talented ship as the X is unsurprising. Maybe a solution that creates such flexibility for the X is exactly what is needed. More firepower today, more survivability tomorrow.

Maybe you just need to look deeper into the idea. This is not just a quick droid fix, giving it a pat and begone with it: it is a world of possibilities that can gives the X a purpose and flexibility. Create astromech that serves different purpose, give a little discount to the X, and then let the player decide how he wants his X-Wing. I'll quote myself from an earlier post:

How do you want your X-Wing? What role do you want it to play in your list? Controller? Arc-Dodger? Tank? Sniper? The possibilities and flexibility is infinite. And the best part, it leaves the door open if the X-Wing is lagging again later: Just do more astromech to choose from.

What actually makes it better than a modification discount is that it works on the thing that sets the X-Wing appart and actually goes with the lore. Every X-Wing flew with an Astromech, but how many do you really see with one in the current game? With a little discount to astromech, every X-Wing would at least take a R2 unit, it would be free. Every ship in the game can take a modification so how is a modification discount more flavourful than an astromech one? How is allowing a modification discount a brilliant idea that you liked very much but an astromech discount just a pat on the butt and throwing it back? Modifications are limited in what they can bring, not really helping with the versatility. Astromech brings a second pilot ability and can tweek with the effectiveness of the ship. The flexibility given by the astromech is what would set it appart from the B-Wing, because it would actually be able to do something the B can't.

Quite frankly, if what you want is for the X to be more versatile, you won't achieve it just by raising his hull, or his attack or just giving it a new action. You will please some, but not everyone, because everyone have different expectations from the X performances. What you need, is give it more options to choose from so that every players can use a X-Wing to his liking.

So, the 2 spots where we can achieve that is either the astromech or the modifications. Given that we agree that the X would be okay with a 1-2 point discount, how would that really serve you with the modification? Raise the hull for 1 point, making it on par with the B-Wing survivability and that's it? Taking a boost action for 2 points? Would you really take a 22pts X-Wing if it had 4 hull, or would you really take a 23 points X-Wing if it had boost? Creating more cheaper modifications? All the ship in the game can take a modification, so you better do some serious playtesting, or just be lazy and make one for the X-Wing only, actually forcing a way to use the ship at the same time. Only 3 ship can use an astromech and they would all welcome the little show of love, so playtesting would be much simplier.

@Red Castle: I don't think a -3 cost reduction on modifications is a problem, because most modifications are worth less than their face value anyway. A Hull Upgrade, for instance, is worth about 1-2 points on 2 Agility, and a Shield Upgrade is worth about 25% more than that. A Stealth Device is worth very little. Adding Boost to a PS9 ship that already has barrel roll is worth a lot, but adding Boost to a PS2 ship that can't otherwise reposition at all is worth something but probably not 4 points.

(A modification that increased the X-wing's attack from 3 to 4 would indeed be too much, though. Someone upthread proposed modification that allowed the X-wing to treat Range 2 shots as Range 1, which I still don't think is likely but would be much less problematic.)

Allowing cheaper astromechs is a better fix thematically, I think, and probably better balanced because astromechs are already more closely tailored to the X-wing. But -3 on modifications isn't necessarily a problem.

@Red Castle: I don't think a -3 cost reduction on modifications is a problem, because most modifications are worth less than their face value anyway. A Hull Upgrade, for instance, is worth about 1-2 points on 2 Agility, and a Shield Upgrade is worth about 25% more than that. A Stealth Device is worth very little. Adding Boost to a PS9 ship that already has barrel roll is worth a lot, but adding Boost to a PS2 ship that can't otherwise reposition at all is worth something but probably not 4 points.

(A modification that increased the X-wing's attack from 3 to 4 would indeed be too much, though. Someone upthread proposed modification that allowed the X-wing to treat Range 2 shots as Range 1, which I still don't think is likely but would be much less problematic.)

Allowing cheaper astromechs is a better fix thematically, I think, and probably better balanced because astromechs are already more closely tailored to the X-wing. But -3 on modifications isn't necessarily a problem.

But then you are closing the door to the option of making modifications actually worth their points. You will have to always take into consideration that there is one ship that have a 3 points discount over them. It is true that most modification cost more than their printed value, but I would like to continue to see some be correctly priced while not risking making the X-Wing too good.

Very well said, Red Castle. I think your proposal(s) have a lot of merit and would love to the see them implemented at a later date. Astromechs are a very interesting part of the lore and mechanically offer some really fun game mechanics. I would love to run Tarn with R7-T1 at a discount.

@redcastle you are basically proposing the same stuff but just with astromechs instead of mods. I argue mods would better because they offer just as much versatility and customization and they even wouldn't have to create new ones.

You also contradict yourself massively. You say giving it more hull or a shield or a boost wouldn't help because it needs more options but isn't having a shield, hull, or boost an option? Also the better the astro the more chance it will be unique and unique Astros only help 1 x wing. Giving players the option for a 3 point discount on mods helps all x wings generic or unique.

You asked would I take 22 point x wing with 2 shields and 4 hull? No absolutely not because that's the same price as the b wing that does it better. Now at 21 points for 2 shields and 4 hull it's cheaper than the b wing, almost as durable, and I still have plenty of points for astromechs.

The x wing should be a good multi role fighter. Right now the best multi role fighter is the b wing. It can be a control ship, it can take cannons, crew, hell throw enough points and it's a decent arc dodger and flanker. The x wing no so much, again having no native boost or barrel roll definitely hurts it.

Also 4 dice attacks are a big part of the game that people are used too. I argue that it would be very balanced if it had 4 dice. It won't be able to dodge arcs like a phantom or dash, it won't stick around as long as a b wing or have the accuracy a b wing has with fcs. It will also have problems getting you in arc without boost or barrel roll. So yeah I'd be all in favor of a card to raise the x wings attack to 4 dice because now it stands out and isn't immediately over shadowed.

Using my idea for a mod to increase the attack power by 1 for x wings+a title for discounted mods let's look at an x wing build.

1. Wedge-29

Expert handling-2

R2 astro-1

T65b title-0 (grants a -3 discount to mods)

Quad link lasers-7 (effectively 3 with title)

That's 35 points a very hard hitting x wing but is balanced by the normal x wing problems of durability and if he wants to barrel roll he has to stress himself which means he relies on dice gods.

You could also for 37 points add r7 t1 which let's you sometimes boost and pick up a tl. Again that's a lot of points for a x wing but **** does it hit like a brick wall.

Me personally, I'd probably do something along the lines of

Luke-28

Vi-1

Title-0

Engine-4 (effectively 1)

R3a2-2

This is a really good cost effective flanker/closer for 32 points and if he gets behind you its gonna be bad.

Me personally I think a fun all x wing list would be

Flanker luke-32

Garven with a free hull-26

2 rookies with free hulls-21x2

That equals to 100 points and you have a good phantom hunting flanker luke and 3 other x wings to help bring down the big ships. Once luke stresses them bring the other x's into firing arc wouldn't be too hard. Again just an example of my ideas.

Using my idea for a mod to increase the attack power by 1 for x wings+a title for discounted mods let's look at an x wing build.

1. Wedge-29

Expert handling-2

R2 astro-1

T65b title-0 (grants a -3 discount to mods)

Quad link lasers-7 (effectively 3 with title)

That's 35 points a very hard hitting x wing but is balanced by the normal x wing problems of durability and if he wants to barrel roll he has to stress himself which means he relies on dice gods.

X-Wing Rookie - 21 points

T65b Title - 0 but -3 to mods

Quad link laster - 7 points

X-Wing Rookie pilot 4 attack dice for 25 points right?

Yeah I did the math wrong with wedge there but yes 4 points effectively to increase attack.

They'd basically be sigmas with lower ps, no evade, cloak or barrel roll, but be able to target lock and have 1 more hull.

RedCastle: You continue to focus on ONE aspect of the X Wing. An aspect which is not even unique to the ship . The Y and E can also take astromechs, so any solution based on the astromech slot alone would not make playtesting easier. A title which is limited to the X Wing means playtesting 1 ship. An astromech which could be used on 3 completely different ships, each with different roles in a complex game such as this is a much bigger job. Simply publishing out new droid cards anytime a weakness in the X, E or Y Wings is exposed, as you mentioned, will require people to buy expansions just for droids and will make the game more expensive for players and harder work for FFG.

Genuinely I am interested. Where in the fluff does it show that adding astromechs allowed your ship to do manoeuvers which were impossible to do before? A fighter is capable or incapable of something by its design. A droid which adds BR to the X, as you have suggested, would be completely useless on the E and IMO unthematic on the Y, a much less manouverable ship. How could adding a droid make your ship a sniper? Or an arc dodger? The range or accuracy of weapons would have been controlled by the ships other systems and the X Wing would have to be capable of all of this before the droid was added. It just doesnt make sense that a droid could do this and I dont know of any which has done this in the movies or fluff.

If, as you say, every X Wing flew with an astromech, why would Y or E wings not do the same? The astromech slot does not set the X Wing apart any more than it sets the Y Wing or the E apart and makes all three different to the B already. 'Fixing' the X Wing purely through its astromech slot is not making the X Wing flexible. It simply serves to undermine players who can fly the X without an astromech upgrade and should have a reason to do so if they choose. I agree that the player should choose what they want their X Wing role to be. But I dont think any of the available astromechs alone solve this key issue, though they could improve that possibility in conjunction with something else, like an a firepower upgrade for example.

By comparison, the recent BTL-A4 title had nothing to do with the astromech slot on the Y and focussed on the unique capability of the Y Wing design. I doubt that an astromech upgrade which did the same thing as that title would be thematic or even make any sense and would be a much larger opportunity cost.

Your suggestion of more diversity in the droid population and range of modification cards is a good one. FFG will undoubtedly release more. I like the idea of a discounted droid which would solve some issues (but not all) and a title which discounted modifications is equally simple and allows for other ways of improving aspects of the X Wing, such as improving firepower, adding manoeuvers, offensive buffs or something which affects ship design, as AtomicFryingPan suggested.

So how about this as an idea which I dont remember being suggested yet (apologies if it has been): An X Wing only title card, which offers -3 point cost to a single Droid or Modification slot upgrade card for the X Wing (minimum 0 cost). It combines both the best parts of your idea and Atomics. It doesnt restrict any slot, it doesnt focus on one aspect or another (you think droids are totally thematic, I think the X Wings firepower makes it stand out) but gives the player leave to choose from all of the available options. It could come with a couple of new droids plus a couple of X Wing specific mods, one which bumped firepower and another which added BR. Ultimately it would allow the X to be whatever you needed it to be, but would still carry the cost penalty of tricking the X Wing out completely.

Ok I get it. You dont like the idea of a 4 red dice X Wing, not everyone does. But you cant seem to get over this. I have already said an extra red dice is probably worth more than 1-2 points. I have already said that I dont believe its the best solution. I only suggested it as a way of highlighting the fact that upping the X Wings offence would make the X Wing different to the B Wing (is what the X Wing needs) and would be totally thematic (the X Wings quad lasers punch well above most of the other Rebel ships armament). I totally agree that you could also achieve the same result without adding a red dice and there have been some great suggestions so far on how to do this. Seriously. Move on.

Ultimately ANY of the suggestions made so far might work and there is no right answer here. So if you are confused because I like different solutions it is because I can see any of them working and am enjoying discussing them. I havent pinned my hopes to one, as you have.

TLDR: Screw it! 4 Red dice X Wings FTW