Between here and over at BGG it has become clear that many want a fix for all X-Wing pilots, no not everyone but many. It must outmaneuver the TIE Interceptor, be as tanky and mobile as a B-Wing, as good a filler as the Z-95, and keep the named pilots and droids just to be sure.

Well, that's not incredibly exaggerated or missing the point entirely

here's all the X-wing has to do: it has to be worth taking. It has to do something better than one of the other rebel options to be worth taking.

Currently, apart from those few pilots that don't go 'splode, it is not because it's a strange mixture of fragility and rigidity that leaves it mostly without a place.

Luke and R7 Tarn are not as fragile as your typical X-wing and Biggs can force horrible shots to indirectly increase his durability. All others just crumble in the face of all these dice (phantoms, HLC dash, expose Decimators or just Chiraneau. aggressors, fat falcon etc) or/and health.

The others "work," after a fashion, but they're sadly just not reliable.

It is interesting to see how the theme has changed so much with the X-Wing. Only a week or so ago it was the Generic X-Wing that only needed a fix. Luke, Wes, Wedge, Biggs, Tarn (oh yeah Tarn), etc... saw action.

Now we're hearing "There aren't many" and "Biggs [...] as a sore point".

Between here and over at BGG it has become clear that many want a fix for all X-Wing pilots, no not everyone but many. It must outmaneuver the TIE Interceptor, be as tanky and mobile as a B-Wing, as good a filler as the Z-95, and keep the named pilots and droids just to be sure.

You know me... I'd be happy accepting the fact that the X-Wing is an okay ship and simply awesome in the right hands but until we fix it we'll just have to wait and see.

P.S. Is it true where the Wave 5 recap stats that the Imperials only win 38% of the time? Are we fixing the wrong ship just for the name?

Can you quote exactly where people are making the demands you state in your post?

There's been a lot of good points made by other here, so I'll just add that even the game's developers have said that the X-wing needs a small boost. This could very likely take into account what they know is on the horizon in waves 7 & 8.

Didn't an interview reveal that Wave 7 is more ord focused?

While that will buff the X/B/Y wings, I'm more hopeful that itll turn the Tie Bombers into something as flexible as the B-wing it was released with

I think there is a lot of complaining to the cost of X-wings. But I think that argument is only half valid.

People are mostly complaining about the waning of the rookie pilot which is understandable. There is only a few good generic pilots that you can take 2 of and with Headhunters being more cost effective and B-wing being tougher for only a point more and you an invest to add some serious firepower the Rookie pilot is having problem finding its spot.

X-wing as in the entire squadron list is not over-costed. It is just that the low pilot skill generics are outclassed. Much in the same way as you look at the E-wings. Corran and Etahn are deadly pilots in their own right but as for Knave what you pay into them is not necessarily what you get out of. Same for X-wings. Wedge is still a great pilot and Biggs will never go out of style. The Rookie hasn't gotten any worse it is just now there are better options in place of the Rookie.

Also lets just say that leaked fixed for Tie Advances are not out yet. (maybe on vassal but I think it is way too early to jump the gun and put them in). With the Tie advance the stats were not balanced as well (too much for agility, not enough emphasis on firepower). That is why the Tie Advance when compared to the X-wing was a bad deal.

But the X-wing is still a good ship, it is just the the one with out the latest stuff since Y-wing got their scum gear and Advanced gear was announced in the raider. The A and B got their Aces and the Interceptor got some more gear with wave 6. Firesprays just got a new title and Falcons don't need much more than 3PO.

Come to think of it if you want to call ships that are due for an overhaul the Tie Bombers only got new torpedoes and missiles which no one uses so yeah they need some love. What about Tie Fighters, they haven't had an update since Wave 1.

Phase 1

• Designers: FFG releases wave 1.
• Math: predicts that the X-wing will become obsolete in the long-term because the TIE Fighter (or something better) becomes the reference point for competitive ships.
• Competitive: The X-wing is used competitively initially because it is the best option available to the Rebels.
• Forums: Some people point out that the X-wing isn't costed well, but it's generally dismissed.

Phase 2

• Designers: FFG releases wave 3.
• Math: predicts that generic B-wings are pretty much universally better than generic X-wings.
• Competitive: B-wings quickly start replacing the X-wing.
• Forums: People start complaining that there are so many B-wings around. Debate about X-wing vs B-wing starts picking up.

Phase 3

• Designers: Alex Davy states in an interview that they are aware that the X-wing is not as mathematically efficient or as competitive as the B-wing.
• Math: X-wing jousting value can be made reasonable by giving it a free hull upgrade, or equivalently a title that grants -3 cost on any modification. Some of the named pilots will never be competitive unless they are directly eratta'ed (not going to happen). Biggs and Wedge will still be top dogs with this approach, even compared to the generics.
• Competitive: Wave 5+ meta. X-wings? What are those?
• Forums: every 10th topic is about how the X-wing either needs fixing, or how it is OK. There are a few holdouts, but general consensus on the FFG boards is that the X-wing needs some love. The BoardGameGeek forum is still stuck back in Phase 1.5 based on the poll on its forum.

Phase 4

• Designers: FFG announces and then releases some new Fix to the X-wing.
• Math: Math on inevitable upcoming fix TBD.
• Competitive: The X-wing sees some use again, especially right after the physical release as people rush to play the iconic "flagship" starfighter.
• Forums: Everyone is super excited about the X-wing fix. Even the old holdouts that complained about the X-wing not needing any help will pick up the [insert expansion name here] pack and happily play with their new shiny toys.

We are currently in phase 3, and based on the apparent latency from design to news spoilers to final release, we will likely be here for another 6-12 months.

Well, as much as I'd like to see new TIE pilots, the ship itself doesn't really need much else. X-wing and TIE Bombers are the obvious things to work on.

Yeah when Davy was at our Store Champ he said the x-wing could use a boost.

If the designer thinks so I guess I'll take his word for it.

I would assume the X-Wing could use a little nudge. It's clearly not as in need of help as the Tie Advanced or the A-Wing were though.

X-wing as in the entire squadron list is not over-costed. It is just that the low pilot skill generics are outclassed. Much in the same way as you look at the E-wings. Corran and Etahn are deadly pilots in their own right but as for Knave what you pay into them is not necessarily what you get out of. Same for X-wings. Wedge is still a great pilot and Biggs will never go out of style. The Rookie hasn't gotten any worse it is just now there are better options in place of the Rookie.

hmm, for me the problem is not just the generics anymore

after running Wes and Wedge for so long, I can say they haven't personally been worth it. They may be well costed relative to their abilities, but the X-wing is just so **** fragile that they shatter pretty **** quickly and the more recent stuff released has too many shields/hull to go through before the lil' X-wings pop.

There are a lot of four-dice attacks in my local meta, and so far only Luke and Tarn have been able to weather them (Biggs dies a lot, but that's his job). It didn't use to be so bad, but Wave 5 has introduced the terror that is Chiraneau and, even worse, Super Dash. Super Dash doesn't give a **** about X-wings (except for Stress Luke, ofc, buddy doesn't like being double stressed)

Phase 1

• Designers: FFG releases wave 1.
• Math: predicts that the X-wing will become obsolete in the long-term if the TIE Fighter becomes the reference point for competitive ships.
• Competitive: The X-wing is used competitively initially because it is the best option available to the Rebels.
• Forums: Some people point out that the X-wing isn't costed well, but it's generally dismissed.

A question just out of curiosity: What would the math have predicted, if the X-Wing would have become the reference point for competitive ships? Would it have predicted that the TIE Fighter gets obsolete? ;-) Or would it have predicted thet the TIE gets better over time?

Again: The intent of this post is not trolling, just genuine curiosity.

Winning at this game is mostly about capitalizing on your strengths. Being a tweener doesn't do you much good, and "well rounded" ships like the X-wing can easily fall into this sad little category.

X-wings are lousy positionally. Okay-ish dial, but no boost or barrel roll, and just a single K-turn so they are predictable.

X-wings pack a decent gun, but struggle to make it more reliable. No FCS, no cheap generics with EPT, droids don't really help offensively, torpedoes are costly and you need to get that TL against higher PS ships somehow.

X-wings are sorta decent at soaking some moderate damage, but easily overwhelmed by volume or even a few high-strength attacks. They can't take evade actions, defensive re-rolls, etc. Astromechs help but they are unique and expensive, and often make you jump through some hoops to make them work (making X-wings even more predictable). For ships that cost as much as they do, being totally at the mercy of 2 green dice sucks. You'll often start losing X-wings that have barely had a chance to roll any red dice, let alone contribute meaningful damage.

X-wings obviously don't have any 360 degree offense and they don't really do much of anything in the way of control (R3-A2 notwithstanding).

Also worth noting that they are quite reliant on actions that can be taken away quite easily via stress/ion/blocks.

In summary, they aren't amazing jousters. They aren't great blockers. They don't arc dodge. They don't like running into anyone remotely more manoeuvrable than they are. They don't have any unique attributes, aside from a few named pilots that you can try and shoehorn into a functional list. Even then, there's usually something that can do the job better, sometimes for cheaper but frankly X-wings tempt you to strap on so many upgrades to make up for their weaknesses that they end up being 30+ in a hurry. Meanwhile, every other ship in the Rebel stables can excel at multiple roles without too much trouble.

It gives me no joy to say these things, but I think they're pretty self-evident. Future tweaks to the X-wing will have to make them cheap enough to spam as basic jousters, which would be kinda boring, or manoeuvrable enough to have some hope as positional ships. A title that allows them to boost/barrel roll in exchange for a stress token would be my solution. Make it free (or negative cost) for the basic X's, and a minor price bump for the named ships since some of them are already pretty good or really close.

A heavily discounted modification slot to represent the different X-wing models could also work. Especially if there was an X-wing specific modification of some sort introduced at the same time.

I know I'm not saying anything new, but it's something that constantly crosses my mind when I feel like coming up with new lists. I always feel like I'm wasting my time/effort when there's objectively better choices out there, and I really want X-wings to be relevant again.

Phase 1

• Designers: FFG releases wave 1.
• Math: predicts that the X-wing will become obsolete in the long-term if the TIE Fighter becomes the reference point for competitive ships.
• Competitive: The X-wing is used competitively initially because it is the best option available to the Rebels.
• Forums: Some people point out that the X-wing isn't costed well, but it's generally dismissed.

A question just out of curiosity: What would the math have predicted, if the X-Wing would have become the reference point for competitive ships? Would it have predicted that the TIE Fighter gets obsolete? ;-) Or would it have predicted thet the TIE gets better over time?

Again: The intent of this post is not trolling, just genuine curiosity.

The best ships by definition become the reference points for competitive play. Hopefully all of those best ships are clustered fairly tightly in their overall cost:benefit ratio, otherwise you get a few broken ships that rule the tournament scene.

It was not mathematically possible for the X-wing to have been the ship which would define the reference point for competitive play, unless the TIE Fighter had been far worse. For example a TIE Fighter costing 14 points, or having only 2 hull would make the X-wing top-dog instead.

Phase 1

• Designers: FFG releases wave 1.
• Math: predicts that the X-wing will become obsolete in the long-term if the TIE Fighter becomes the reference point for competitive ships.
• Competitive: The X-wing is used competitively initially because it is the best option available to the Rebels.
• Forums: Some people point out that the X-wing isn't costed well, but it's generally dismissed.

A question just out of curiosity: What would the math have predicted, if the X-Wing would have become the reference point for competitive ships? Would it have predicted that the TIE Fighter gets obsolete? ;-) Or would it have predicted thet the TIE gets better over time?

Again: The intent of this post is not trolling, just genuine curiosity.

The best ships by definition become the reference points for competitive play. Hopefully all of those best ships are clustered fairly tightly in their overall cost:benefit ratio, otherwise you get a few broken ships that rule the tournament scene.

It was not mathematically possible for the X-wing to have been the ship which would define the reference point for competitive play, unless the TIE Fighter had been far worse. For example a TIE Fighter costing 14 points, or having only 2 hull would make the X-wing top-dog instead.

Can you give me a link which explains why it was not possible for the X-Wing to be the best ship?

And is the TIE Fighter still the best ship (by some measure)?

And would it help for the rookie pilot to play with 105 points instead of 100?

And is the TIE Fighter still the best ship (by some measure)?

That depends on what criteria you use to define "best", but it's certainly a top contender.

Phase 1

• Designers: FFG releases wave 1.
• Math: predicts that the X-wing will become obsolete in the long-term if the TIE Fighter becomes the reference point for competitive ships.
• Competitive: The X-wing is used competitively initially because it is the best option available to the Rebels.
• Forums: Some people point out that the X-wing isn't costed well, but it's generally dismissed.

A question just out of curiosity: What would the math have predicted, if the X-Wing would have become the reference point for competitive ships? Would it have predicted that the TIE Fighter gets obsolete? ;-) Or would it have predicted thet the TIE gets better over time?

Again: The intent of this post is not trolling, just genuine curiosity.

He's saying that X-wings weren't great at dealing with TIEs, who are hard to hit with unmodified 3-dice attacks, and can either block higher PS X-wings to take away their actions or simply outmaneuver lower PS X-wings. Mobile agility 3 ships have some serious advantages over the X-wing, whether they move before or after them.

If more and more ships came out with the X-wing's style, decent stats but poor positioning abilities, the TIE and its siblings would have been pretty OK with that. The X-wing looks flexible on paper (with those "well rounded" stats) but the TIE is actually more flexible in practice, and significantly cheaper too.

As it turns out, the majority of ships can out-position the X-wing (either through boost/barrel roll or turrets), and the X-wing's guns don't hit hard enough to make their limited shots count.

isn't there already a upgrade that gives anyship a barrel roll and removal of a target lock for a stress?

isn't there already a upgrade that gives anyship a barrel roll and removal of a target lock for a stress?

Any ship? no. A generic X-wing, and a couple of the named pilots, iirc, don't have an EPT slot. Also Expert Handling uses up you EPT which limits your options if you're considering it an auto-include to make that ship viable in a competitive setting.

isn't there already a upgrade that gives anyship a barrel roll and removal of a target lock for a stress?

The points cost, opportunity cost of using your valuable EPT (which most pilots don't come with), and cost of your action make this a poor fix for the X-wing. The stress is moot since my idea for a title would give them a pseudo barrel roll/boost ability in exchange for a stress anyway.

Anyway, it doesn't really help the basic X-wings or half of the named pilots at all.

Can you give me a link which explains why it was not possible for the X-Wing to be the best ship?

And is the TIE Fighter still the best ship (by some measure)?

And would it help for the rookie pilot to play with 105 points instead of 100?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

To make your X-wings worth using you have to look at what they can do that those other ships cannot,

The X-Wing is also the only 25 point option for the rebels with 2 agility and 3 attack dice.

The BTL-A4 Y and the 2x Z-95 both have reduced damage, though they have more attacks. They do not deal with high-agility ships as well as the X.

The B and Y both have 1 agility, and do not mitigate damage as well.

The X-Wing is just fine... in fact everything is fine now or soon will be (come on wit dat bad boy RAIDER!!!).

This talk of meta-fix-viable-flip-yarble is only here because of the stupid-jock-40k-space-gyrine-schmuck competitive mentality.

Don't listen to any of it my wonderful Star Brothers... it is just gamer-gaa-gaa-noisees, and it has absolutely no effect on what we do with our toys and how we enjoy what we love.

The X-Wing is just fine... in fact everything is fine now or soon will be (come on wit dat bad boy RAIDER!!!).

This talk of meta-fix-viable-flip-yarble is only here because of the stupid-jock-40k-space-gyrine-schmuck competitive mentality.

Don't listen to any of it my wonderful Star Brothers... it is just gamer-gaa-gaa-noisees, and it has absolutely no effect on what we do with our toys and how we enjoy what we love.

I love themed builds, and thematically I don't remember X-wings being scrapped and replaced with the B-wing.

The X-Wing is just fine... in fact everything is fine now or soon will be (come on wit dat bad boy RAIDER!!!).

This talk of meta-fix-viable-flip-yarble is only here because of the stupid-jock-40k-space-gyrine-schmuck competitive mentality.

Don't listen to any of it my wonderful Star Brothers... it is just gamer-gaa-gaa-noisees, and it has absolutely no effect on what we do with our toys and how we enjoy what we love.

I love themed builds, and thematically I don't remember X-wings being scrapped and replaced with the B-wing.

...it happened in one of them there EU books that don't even exist anymore...

Tought it was the Y-wings getting replaced with the B's (switching bombers for heavy fighter) I'll admit X-wings are the superior fighter in the Rebs arsenal but I'll pilot a B-wing anytime.

Rediculously overgunned, thats how i like 'em!

Don't listen to any of it my wonderful Star Brothers... it is just gamer-gaa-gaa-noisees, and it has absolutely no effect on what we do with our toys and how we enjoy what we love.

So Alex Davy is making "gamer-gaa-gaa-noisees"?