So it came up in discussion with the group's Navigator that any mutation, either by virtue of being a Navigator or by Chaos, are permissible for him because of who he is. Now, I am aware that they are considered a different class of mutant/psyker and are given quite a degree of respect and deference. At what point does a Navigator's level of mutations cause alarm? Are people knowledgeable enough to recognize what is a hallmark of being a Navigator, and what is the work of Chaos? Can he be persecuted by the Imperium for gaining a significant level of Navigator-only mutations?

I ask not only to prove a point to him, but for my own benefit. My character has the Hatred (mutants) talent, and I have roleplayed this quite a bit in the past. The character is tolerant of the Navigator, despite him being who he is. Part of this is necessity, and another part is the shared background of nobility. However, the Navigator has become even more mutated, and may become more so in the future. Would this be cause for alarm?

Well, considering how the franchise works, it all comes down to individual interpretation, as the sources vary greatly and there is considerable room for artistic license. As such, things like these should best be discussed with the group to aim for a consensus with everyone who participates in your campaign.

That being said, the point you are bringing up can absolutely be justified. To quote Games Workshop's own d100 game, "Inquisitor":

"Then, as now, most people shunned Navigators. With their strange three-eyed appearance, few would have dealings with them, and many in positions of power were jealous of their privileged status. Superstition and fear surrounds them, as it does all other mutants."

"As well as their obvious mutation, a single dark eye in their forehead, other, lesser, mutations are not uncommon amongst Navigators. Many of the Navigator Houses have spent a vast amount of time in the Warp and, though they are exceptionally resistant to the powers of Chaos, the corrupting power of the Warp has taken its toll on the physical forms of the Navigators through the generations. Most of the families hide minor mutations, but the problem is accentuated by the intermarrying of the Great Houses to secure political allegiances and gain additional prestige. Over the millennia this stagnating gene-pool has created more cosmetic mutations: obesity or anorexia, bulbous facial features, large ears and withered limbs are all common amongst the nobility of the Navigators. More sinister mutations are hidden from view, the worst sufferers hiding within the privacy of the palaces, never to see the light of day , their hideous deformities hidden from the Imperium behind a mask of wealth and luxury. Many Navigator children are killed at birth, mutated beyond recognition, abominations even to their strange race."

"The holy agents of the Inquisition keep a close eye on the Navigator Houses, ready to seize upon any indication that the Navigators have strayed beyond the already widened boundaries of tolerance . Whispers of dissent among the Great Houses are ruthlessly crushed by Inquisitorial purges against the offending Houses; goods and assets are seized, midnight raids on Navigator palaces are followed by arrests and a purging of those seen as tainted, their fate to be burnt as heretics or locked away in Inquisition torture chambers . The Navigators have come to fear the power of the Inquisition, but to offer resistance would bring the iron fist of Imperial justice down upon them and the freedoms they enjoy within the mercantile world would be lost."

More background for possible inspiration here .

Navigators are tolerated , no matter how much they might think otherwise, and try to put on airs of being elite nobility, or whatever they might do in their free time. Much like psykers, everyone else watches them with nigh-unhidden suspicion, and only the fact that the way the Imperium is set up demands their continued existence allows them to prosper, just like psykers, the AdMech, and a few other agencies. That said, one minor advantage they have, in my opinion, is that they can't get "weird" mutations. Navigator mutations are strange, and some are really obvious, but they all MUST come off of the Navigator's table, so high-ups who are sufficiently knowledgeable should be able to pick out their "typical" weirdness, over some three-armed, skin-shuffling-off abomination, or creature touched by Chaos, and their third eye is often a good clue as to their origin.

As to what's too much, that depends on several things. If you read the fluff, many Navigators are rather imprisoned in their towers, aboard ship, kept away from the fearful, superstitious crew, sort of like the Navigators in Dune, and in the Herbertverse, no one ever sees Navigators, so you might have them played that way here. Others take the excuse of their "freedom" to go scare the crew, but if they are four mutations into their character, I'd bet they don't often. Their standing will protect them from many things, but their mutantcy will get them blamed for stuff, and many people will look for excuses to have accidents happen to them, since they are an affront before the Emperor. If things go wrong, people might go through their whole area, and kill all of them, for fear they brought a pox down upon the ship. In my fanfic, my navigator looks hot (because I'm lame that way ), and has next to no mutations, especially visible ones (as a Navis Scion, this was actually mostly the point, and a portion of her backstory), so she can pull off the Scintillan Noble look better than they can, and no one's the wiser, till she tells them she's a Navigator. Her father, on the other hand, looks like Edric from the sci-fi channel Children of Dune movie, with pale skin, membranous growths between limbs, glowing eyes, a rather Roswell Martian look, and on; he doesn't go out much, knowing that his appearance is troubling.

Blah, blah, blah, most people will hate them, not trust them, and/or assume their own souls are damned, just for tolerating them, though they know their place, and their value, and they can do some pretty cool stuff, if they want/need.

That's kind of the stance that I've taken - Navigators are tolerated, and only barely just. While they may be wealthy nobility, they tread a fine line between lynch-worthy mutant and acceptable tool. The argument arises from the Navigator player insisting that he is above everyone, and that despite being an entirely bald, albino, gelatinous blob of fat with a third eye, nobody has a problem with it. He refuses to believe that common citizens would mistake him for a run of the mill mutant, despite him wearing fancy robes or being in the company of a Rogue Trader. It is good to know that the fluff is more on my side, more or less.

My other problem arises from whether or not my character will begin to hate him. He is, after all, becoming quite grotesque. His description makes him look like the Dune Navigators and I don't know how that will be perceived.

That sounds... exactly like a Navigator. Navigators are powerful, necessary, and some believe that the navigator mutation was ordained by Him-on-Terra. However, that doesn't make any other mutations they might have any easier to swallow. It's unlikely any void born are going to hate him in a "burn the heretic" kind of way. But they might become afraid of him.

The Navigator gene is one thing, and frankly, the easiest to swallow. It is what makes them so important in the first place. What I see as a problem, however, is the fact that he is host to a number of quite obvious mutations. The more he gets, the less human he will look, and the less tolerable he will be. As it stands, he travels on an anti-grav plate because he's so fat he can hardly walk. It isn't necessarily the void-born I am worried about, but the average, superstitious Imperial citizen. He accompanies the group whenever we land and go about business, so I can see that proving to be an issue in the future.

The question now is at what point would his mutations cross the line, in the eyes of a mutant-hating Confessor-turned-Rogue Trader? To some degree, it is a matter of personal opinion, but is there a line that could theoretically be crossed? What is the procedure for replacing a Navigator, anyway?

What is the procedure for replacing a Navigator, anyway?

Therein lies the issue. If you're like the vast majority (read: everyone) of situations, your contracted to a particular house for Navigation services. You would have to petition his house to reassign him and send you a replacement. Unless you have a lot of pull though, or a very compelling argument (ie, spending money) chances are it's just going to be denied with a very nicely worded letter of apology. After all, their contracts with the Navy are far more important, and if they can't pawn him off on you, who can they pawn him off on?

I think most imperials will tolerate a navigator with a few minor mutations: webbed fingers, blue lips, stuff like that. Even cloven hooves and a tentacle for an arm can be hidden with a long sleeved robe.

But once he starts to go into the chaos spawn teritory people won't put up with the navigator anymore. Stuff like extra heads (try hiding that one!) extra limbs, boney spikes, etc...

To a character who hates mutants, that would be cause for alarm.

extra heads (try hiding that one!)

Easy, tell people he and his brother just like practical jokes a lot!

Practical jokes are heresy!*

That reminds me of that male nurse who dressed up as a zombie for Halloween. So he gets the bright idea to go stumble across the hospital pretending to be a zombie...

Now I know what you are thinking: Guy caused a total panic, right? Wrong. Turns out that when hospital staff see a bloodstained man shuffeling and moaning, they don't think "zombie", they think "trauma victim". So the guy was on a stretcher being wheeled into the ER before he could say" Wait guys, it's me!"

Trying that stunt in the 40k universe would get you shot.

*But then again, so is everything else.

Part of it depends on WHERE you are landing, and he's accompanying you. Is it Vaporius? Zayth? Any of a number of other planets in the Expanse where the Imperium isn't a thing, nor all of its views, or is it a party on Scintilla? Inside the Imperium, a certain amount of oddness is allowed to a certain demographic of people, but outside its borders, many people won't care. Many Navigators reach a point where it becomes advisable that they sequester themselves in their towers, aboard ship, and stay there. If your player is being obscene, gross, and an a-hole, and that's a problem, you might have reps of his House hear of it, and say something. He HAS to listen to higher ups among them, for the most part. Otherwise, if he's just a gelatinous blob hoping to find a flip belt, it's iffy to just say "yes that's fine" or "no, they'd burn him." The big line usually ends up being when the family decides he's hurting their group interests more by being public, and then he can "retire" into the luxury of his chambers, while more "presentable mutants" can take his visible place. I imagine some of the best actual Navigators are never seen, never leaving their chambers, and able to get a ship practically anywhere, even using the Navis Primer as a ruleset, but they will be hideous monsters in form, and no one will want to see them. Hell, that's why I wrote up my story bit for House Volaris' Project Radiance, while their Novator is a dead ringer for a more recent version of the Guild Steersmen from Dune; I'm not sure which one everyone else frequently references, whether Sci-fi Channel's rare "we made something good" remake, or the Dino De Laurentiis movie from my childhood, where a Navigator looked like a cross between MODOK and...yeah, I'm not typing the other thing. If you've seen Blue Gender, you know where I was going.

If you ever read about the selection of a new Paternova, they CAN actually mutate even further, beyond the chart of the book, but many of the most powerful, who didn't player-twink their Toughness stat, roll for mutations, and then maybe spend a Fate point to re-roll that, are likely hideous monsters, and most people will never see them, nor want to.

Blue gender...

Nice one!

It is a good point being made about Navigators staying in their quarters - the more grotesque, the less acceptable in normal situations involved in RT. So then what happens if he takes a few more mutations down the road? What does that mean for the player? As a mutant-hater, I know what the character would want to do, but I know it isn't much fun for the player if his Navigator is sequestered in his tower every session. Likewise, if he were to play as a different Navigator, does that mean he gets the same amount of XP? It would just be a repeat of the last issue.

I can see that as a problem for a player to have to wrangle with, but it isn't, in some vague ways, much different than saying that, for the most part, after your Insanity or Corruption pass a certain point, you become an NPC; the "you" you are portraying just can't reasonably, and believably, function in the universe as it is described. You simply MIGHT hit those milestones faster, if you roll poorly. It is, in some ways though, a potential problem the character has to expect, should they choose this career, the same as the Psyker MIGHT blink out of existence when he accidentally bursts a blood vessel in his mind, or what have you. I don't want to just say "you picked NAVIGATOR, so you knew this was coming", but I sort of can, because they sort of did. It might become one of those times to go visit those threads about weird Navigators trying to undo their mutations with cybernetics, or something, in a way to stay ahead of the degradation, or spend the extra heavy loads of XP into Toughness advances.

I'll fall back to my other post; in many places where Rogue Traders tread, the tenets of the Imperium only exist to the extent in which you brought them with you, so in such places, Navigators might not be feared for the same reasons , and here, they might still flourish. If the game is a more ship/space-based adventure, with less dungeon-trekking, even staying in their tower isn't so bad, and players can come visit them, if they want, while the fearful crew tell horror stories about the monster. They won't shine as well in noble circle parties, but neither might the Astropath, the super-teched Explorator, or any xenos you thought to let someone play as, so limited social activities might not only be a limit for the Navigator.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I can only find one example of the navigators mutation, him being fat. While there are presumably more mutations to this navigator, if this mutation were to be the worst one, it does not seems to be bad at all. Even if he were to be extremely fat I would think that this mutation is much more excepted considering that that problem can happen to non-mutated humans. While most common civilians wouldn't be able to afford excess food, I know that in soon books, they mentioned planets where the rich nobles were fat blobs as all they did was eat on their throne. Perhaps if you were to give examples of the navigators other mutations we could get a better feel for what this navigator looks like.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I can only find one example of the navigators mutation, him being fat. While there are presumably more mutations to this navigator, if this mutation were to be the worst one, it does not seems to be bad at all. Even if he were to be extremely fat I would think that this mutation is much more excepted considering that that problem can happen to non-mutated humans. While most common civilians wouldn't be able to afford excess food, I know that in soon books, they mentioned planets where the rich nobles were fat blobs as all they did was eat on their throne. Perhaps if you were to give examples of the navigators other mutations we could get a better feel for what this navigator looks like.

The argument arises from the Navigator player insisting that he is above everyone, and that despite being an entirely bald, albino, gelatinous blob of fat with a third eye, nobody has a problem with it.

I posted about it here. It isn't so much his weight that is the issue, but the fact that it is coupled with albinism, an utter lack of hair on his body, and the ability to squeeze his amorphous body into spots not possible for regular humans - and that is just what he has now. I worry that if the Navigator acquires more mutations, it would make it difficult to justify him leaving his tower or being present in social situations within the realm of the Imperium.

Then again, you already knew that since you are the player and the character in question is yours. I assume you have read through most of the thread, so I won't reiterate what has been said before. Just know that while Navigator mutations may be cool from a game play perspective, they make you less and less acceptable in the eyes of those who don't tolerate mutation - meaning most people within the borders of the Imperium.

Haha well that may be but it still seems to me that being fat and hairless is hardy the justification to remove my player from the game. It seems to me that these mutations are quite common to navigators and are rather tame and acceptable than others such as having fangs. If you were to remove navigators with these minor mutations, I believe that the majority of navigators would have to be removed. Also the amorphous part is not completely correct, as he is just rather flexible. This mutation not an obvious one and other characters would not be able to find. As such the navigator hardy constitutes as heavy or overly mutated in my opinion and has no reason to be removed. In addition the majority of RT takes place outside the bounds out the imperium and as such mutations will be more accepted than within.

The mutation 'Strangely Jointed Limbs' is a tricky one. Mechanically it only grants the contortionist skill at trained level so it doesn't seem to be something that could even be spotted if someone isn't showing off "Hey look at what I can do with my shoulder" However the description of the mutation notes that your limbs have extra joints that articulate differently to a normal human. That in my mind means that if your character wants to fit in they would need to concentrate on walking and moving differently putting a conscious effort into not bending in their second elbow (or whatever). Depending on what the character is wearing (large robes for instance) and doing (sitting down and reading a book) it might not be easily noticeable but once it is noticed it might be unnerving.

For a real life example my sister has hyper flexibility, particularly in her hand and that means that when she flips someone off she can make a perfect fist and then raise her middle finger without the two on either side moving at all. It is hard to notice but once you do it is very strange.

As for being an incredibly fat, hairless albino it may not make your character a lot of friends but it probably isn’t that uncommon to have people in bureaucratic roles becoming sedentary and not seeing the light of day often. I imagine many scribes have a similar pallor. The obesity may be harder to explain but again it isn’t outside the realms of possibility http://marvel-movies.wikia.com/wiki/Pearl

LT;DR The Navigator described probably isn’t mutated beyond what would be acceptable in a society which depends servitors and worships a corpse Emperor but he shouldn’t be your go to social guy either. Your Rogue Trader should probably have some sort of response ready for the inevitable questions as to why he’s bringing someone so apparently ill-suited to doing something other than sitting in the dark not moving a lot along on adventures though.

So far, we haven't had any issues with it, and I have been able to justify not hating or trying to remove his character in-game. However, this is only so far. We've had about three or four sessions of play and this is where the Navigator is at. The list of Navigator mutations presents several that would make him quite obviously a mutant, and the more he has, the harder and harder it seems it would be to justify it from an in-character viewpoint. As a former Ecclesiarchy Confessor who hates mutants, how am I going to feel about the Navigator of the ship as he slowly becomes less and less human?

That's just going off of the normal Navigator list. What happens when he tries to get a mutation or two out of the GM that aren't present in the Navigator list?

As the Rogue Trader of the group, I am the one doing most of the social interactions as I have the best skills for it. Though when we have any sort of encounter or "dungeon crawl" the whole party is present. Which is where my question comes from, originally. What are people going to think? What am I going to think? What does that mean for the player?

To clarify: I am not trying to remove the player or have his character killed for whatever reason. I roleplay my character seriously and try to do as they would, given the character's background and talents. This is where the conflict comes from, not some sort of personal vendetta against the player or Navigators as a whole.

How your character feels about another character is really up to you. Once you get to know someone and they've potentially save your life a few times or cut fifteen years off your warp journey then you might feel differently about them in particular while still being able to hate mutants in general.

As for the general public that is really for the GM to decide. Some people in heavily polluted hive worlds may see mutants every day and while the dogma of burn the mutant may still play on their mind occasionally they reserve their real hatred for the guy with tentacles and a second face. The guy who doesn't have a nose... well perhaps he was just in an accident. People tend to rationalize what they need to in order to get on with their day.

That isn't to say Moby **** will be accepted everywhere he goes just that it isn't a forgone conclusion that he will be universally reviled.

Some of the magisterial houses may pride themselves on how human they appear so they may look down on this navigator as something that should have been destroyed at birth to keep the gene pool clean. It is all down to the environment the navigator finds himself in and the history the GM weaves behind the scenes.

What might be worthwhile is someone upping their lore skills so they have a chance or working out which places will accept the navigator without too much trouble and which once will reach for their pitchforks before it happens.

Well, it doesn't matter as we all died or became corrupted by a Yu'Vath artifact and the campaign ended. Rather ludicrously, I might add.

For future Navigators, remember one extra. There is a fine line between "that's a monster, kill it!" and pissing oof the Navid Nobilite. We can use the above corpulent albino Navigator. If he were to go to a party on Scintilla, he might very well be avoided by many, and half-heartedly socialized with by others, but many won't say too much that is truly offensive, in public, for fear of offending the Navis Nobilite, as a whole. All Navigators KNOW that they will be mutated nightmares, to some degree, in an Imperium that loathes such things, and tolerates them only because they must, but growing up in a community of likewise "freaks", you often develop a certain humor regarding your abnormalities, and often the community stands together against outsiders. If Sy Corpulus (I needed a name) were at a Noble's party on Scintilla, and people said disparaging remarks about him, due to how he behaved, or something personal, it might fly, but if they bring his "community" as a whole into question by their banter, they offend the navigators who also work for them, or for whom they might work. He might not be inwardly popular among parties, but everyone will agree that to tolerate him is best, as to offend the NN is to maroon yourself on a single world. if Corpulus happens to ALSO be surprisingly charming, or entertaining, he will make real friends among such circles, too.

Remember, the last thing you want to do is piss off a whole organization upon which you are dependent, and like making snide comments at a gypsy might enrage the whole troupe, so too might you find many other Navigators don't take kindly to your opinion of them, as a people, and the NN is a POWERFUL organization, in a number of ways.

Babble done

Well, it doesn't matter as we all died or became corrupted by a Yu'Vath artifact and the campaign ended. Rather ludicrously, I might add.

Well, after discovering a remote star system, we discovered that one of the planets harbored xeno ruins. I am not sure what happened exactly, as I had to leave before they were explored. What I do know is it involved two Leman Russ tanks, some xenos beasts, and awakening Eldar constructs. Evidently, the Navigator recovered some artifacts that combined together to form a small spider or some such. He didn't bother to tell the Lord-Captain. It turns out that it was a Yu'Vath device that saved his life on a couple occasions, and scared away a pair of Eldar ships that hulked one of my frigates.

Still, he failed to reveal his possession of the artifact. Part of that was due to my character's hardline stance on dealing with the technology of xenos, but that is not the point of the story. We were on a different world exploring ruins when it all went south.

You see, our Void Master was sitting at a cool 40 or so corruption points. None of us knew this (save the Navigator), as he didn't have any visible signs of mutation and wasn't any more weird or greedy than usual. This Yu'Vath relic killed a giant tentacle-plant that was threatening the Navigator and the Void Master as they entered into a room in the ruins. Me, the Arch Militant (who was injured) and the Chief Chirugeon stayed back. As we heard the sounds of combat stop completely, the pair emerged from the room without a scratch.

I asked them, suspicious, what had happened. The Navigator failed a Deceive test, but the Arch Militant wasn't believing it. He began to interrogate the Void Master, who didn't understand what had happened. The Arch Militant turned to the Navigator, and as he stepped forward to grab the lying bastard, the Arch Militant's head exploded.

Shards from his skull flew everywhere, and his blood super-heated, engulfing the Navigator in the explosion. There was a quick flash, and the Yu'Vath amulet stopped all damage. The Chirugeon lowered his archeotech laspistol, previously aimed at the head of the Arch Militant.

Evidently, the Chirugeon knew that something bad was going to happen when the Arch Militant threatened the Navigator, and decided to stop that from happening. What we didn't know was that every time the artifact flashed, it gave everyone around it 2d10 Insanity and Corruption points. Our Void Master was now sitting at around 70 something Corruption, and god knows how much Insanity.

I charged the Chirugeon, almost killing him with my power sword before the Navigator grappled me into unconsciousness (I was already fatigued). While we were fighting, the Void Master sprouted two arms on his back and a prehensile tail. He then proceeded to shoot me with his meltagun while I was defenseless. I died.

That's where the campaign ended, with the GM narrating the epilogue where the trio returned to the ship, instituted a mutant-run mutiny, and attempted to crash the ship into a hive world. They were blown out of the sky before they even made atmosphere.

Ohh.... Well.... That just stinks all around.