Looking for tips and commentary on what others think of adapting the Rites and Rituals rules of BC for use as an Adeptus Ministorum Preacher.

A bit on my thought process. There are numerous examples of inquisitors using blessed relics to combat daemons, hexagrammic and pentagramic purity wards holding back the warp in one form or another, and in general items imbued with the light of He who sits the Golden Throne. There is even a rule for this in DH2 where weapons can have the Sanctified trait, though no weapon has this trait other than those touched by the Sister of Battle Canoness and wielded by the Grey Knight reinforcements. I was pondering how perhaps an Adeptus Ministorum agent might go about executing a ceremony to bring about such ends, or others, in a similar way to Tech-Priests that perform rites to appease a disgruntled machine spirit, and I thought of the Rites and Rituals of BC.

This made some level of sense to me as it would seem to be entirely in keeping with the inner secrecy's of the Ecclesiarchy and not all of the Rites and Rituals require the participants to be psykers. They do require some level of forbidden lore, typically daemonology. My thought was to substitute this for Forbidden Lore (Occult) or perhaps (Numerology) in the case of the hexgrammic/pentagramic wards, thus requiring training in the exercise of such activities. The rite/ritual would still require some level of setup and circumstance, the right components, even utilizing rules like wrought for purpose, but to the end of the Imperium rather than chaos.

Obviously we're not going to be summoning the Custodes, or notable Saints, as one might summon a bloodletter. At least not without DIRE consequences, but this would perhaps allow for another creative avenue for characters? I'm thinking an actual use to the Sanctified trait or an autoseance ala Eisenhorn? The latter clearly requires some level of psyker but you get the idea.

I'm open to thoughts and criticism on this. Would it be a waste of time to players? Too much fluff with too little gain? Too close to outright heresy? Or, as I like to think, just the right amount.

Has anything like this ever been covered by other source books from DH1? I certainly don't own all of them, but I haven't come across anything like this yet.

In regards to game mechanics, Blood of Martyrs page 126 suggests a combination of paying the cost for various paraphernalia (between a few dozen and several hundred thrones), followed by a Creed lore test (from between -30 to +30) from a suitably initiated Ecclesiarchal official. The specifics depend on whether you'd want to bless an item, an individual, or an entire undertaking, or permanently sanctify something. Needless to say, the latter is a fairly big thing, and whereas the first three services are freely sold by the Church as a way to generate income, sanctification may warrant an explanation and some diplomacy with the clergy, as you are basically generating your own relic, which is only one step from proclaiming a saint.

For the fluff, I would recommend reading the chapter "Religion & Superstition" in the Inquisitor's Handbook , as it contains a great description of how Imperial faith works, combined with an account of local peculiarities affiliated with the Calixis sector, down to specific relics and saints, as well as various paraphernalia you could combine with the aforementioned rules for sanctifying an item..

Ultimately, keep in mind that the Imperial faith works differently on each world, adjusted by the Ecclesiarchy and the Sisters Sabine to conform to local beliefs for easier integration into the fold. As such, you have a lot of freedom when it comes to fleshing out various rituals, allowing you to seek inspiration from all manner of religious rituals both real (and not just Christianity) and fictional (from other settings).

Whether it adds something to your game or not would depend on your group, but I would say that at least minor blessings ought to be something that any player of a religious character could have a lot of fun with, as it serves to flesh out their daily practice of religion, which in turn is a major part of the character's very identity.

After reading the infos for "Enemies within" I assumed that rituals and stuff like this might be in there together with the investigation rules.

Daemonhunter had more detailled rules for sanctified weapons (essentially reverse daemon weapons that had particular effects against daemons with specific natures), but I can't recall if it had rules for making them.

Ultimately, an ecclesiarchy character could reasonably be expected to know formal blessings for a weapon, but the kind of super-sanctified daemon-killers you're talking about...I'd go into (Occult) combined with a very difficult (Imperial Creed) or (Ecclesiarchy) to find the rituals you're after. This sort of thing - exorcisms, and anti-daemon blessings, would be available but not necessarily specifically known to cardinals and the like, and known specifically to banishers and witch-hunters with experience in this sort of thing.

They definitely won't require you to be a psyker. I would suggest that there needs to be a test of the ritual enactor's faith (willpower tests?) and purity (test corruption as if it was a D100 stat, but obviously trying to fail ). There may also be sacrifices involved - in the short story concerning grey knight wargear, each bolt shell is quenched in "the blood of a good man, given willingly".

Given that Enemies within includes the Sororitas as a background, you may have more on 'blessings and miracles' as part of this.

As for sanctified weapons and maybe hexagrammic wards I would suggest to go into occult or actually warp for these are not necessarily linked to the faith of the ecclesiarchy.

As for the hexagrammic wards the P&P (Handbook?) was rather clear that these are not some symbols of faith but actually applied science of the warp and hence could be crafted by any knowledgeable tech priest for example.

Same goes for the sanctified weapons that seem to be more about craftmanship (nemesis weapons) or circumstance (bones from a saint carved into a hilt for a sword) though some rulebook had rules for temporary sanctified?

All the other stuff seems to go into the "faith" category and neither do we know where they come from nor does it seem that they are that available. Aside from some DH1 supplement that throw them out like candy they are considered rather rare and nothing you could "learn" but achieve over long and faithful service to the god emperor.

Imho I see this more of an end goal like the Ascension Priest career that had auto sanctify for a radius rather than something you could study and learn for there are so many high ranking officials out there that can not perform such acts like astartes chaplains etc. that could actually really use such deamon-killer weaponry.

Also we have to wonder what is actually required? Many rituals may be bloated with unnecessary things like quenching it in blood where it only requires some very specific runes etc.

Just think about the book of Lorgar. Even he considered many things decadent like writing on human skin, using blood etc. yet he accepted it and believed such unnecessary symbolism was required for the faithful and those in doubt. Given that a mere human was able to summon a daemon without much rituals involved and even without intent to do so only by trying to read the very pure essence of his scripture is rather intriguing and puts a shame to all those that have to prepare summoning circles and what not for they have to compensate their lack of knowledge with sheer decadence.

As for the hexagrammic wards the P&P (Handbook?) was rather clear that these are not some symbols of faith but actually applied science of the warp and hence could be crafted by any knowledgeable tech priest for example.

Also, and I consider this important for my preferred vision of the 41st millennium, it feels more scientific and thus realistic to me than unexplained and inconsistent "real miracles". This is merely personal preference, though, and I know there are a lot of fans who simply prefer a more epic and fantastical version of the setting, with immortal gods and magic and all that entails. As Gav Thorpe once said, none of our visions are incorrect.

My own intent was to both allow an Adeptus Ministorum character to further utilize his background in a meaningful way, and to find some logic and consistency to the 40K universe.

The rituals themselves may not in all cases be expected to have a strong mechanic-based effect. Would I expect a preacher to be able to blindly create a relic weapon from rote repetition of a beginner level text? No. I wouldn't even begin to suspect Ecclesiarchy Cardinals would be capable of that or the Ecclesiarchy would be cranking out relics gangbuster. But it is reasonable to assume that the church of the Confederation of Light has a certain amount of trappings that they themselves believe serve a meaningful purpose. Their rites and rituals would have some effect, even if it would only be to reinforce the faith of the church's adherents. More than that would certainly be up to a player and a GM to decide on the level of expertise required to achieve a more tangible result, but I could certainly see the case being made for things such as bonuses to Willpower tests made against psychic powers, sealing locations against the intrusion of the warp, blessings of weapons in various degrees and more. The Inquisition would be expected to maintain a certain stranglehold on the potentially dangerous rites and rituals, sealed within long forgotten data vaults, yes. Perhaps that in itself is a story hook. And perhaps that is the decision that a player and a GM come to as well, yes it is possible but not at your level of understanding.

I must agree with Lynata's take on the science of emotion and faith in the 40K universe, though I doubt I will be as eloquent. Oddly, I think the Orks provide the strongest potential example. Each with a latent psychic ability, each contributing to the communities overall power, and directly influencing the physics of the universe around them due to their belief. An Ork believes a weapon works, his tribe believes it works, and so it works. Larger bodies of Orks are capable of raising larger and larger weaponry. Remove the Ork from the equation and the weapon stops working. Perhaps the average imperial citizen lacks the psychic strength of an Ork, but what is to prevent them from utilizing the same mechanism? Whats more, perhaps human emotion, which is obviously such a key component in many of the 'magics' of 40K, is what gives humanity the edge.

This argument is further reinforced by the circumstance requirements of many chaos rituals. First, create a environment of high emotion to thin the barrier between realspace and the warp, then enact a ritual which sends the clarion call to an entity strong enough to tunnel through. The Word Bearers used this during the invasion of Tanakreg, using the emotional turmoil associated with the deaths of billions to physically transport a world into the warp. There are numerous examples of this strong emotion being used by Chaos, but what if the emotion was hatred of Chaos? What if revulsion was at the center of the rite/ritual, would you not expect even an untrained but particularly hate filled individual to have some effect?

I'm very glad this got at least some discussion, and now I have some additional sources to check. I for one, if I ever to get to play my Priest, will be making the case for Imperial rites and rituals.

More than that would certainly be up to a player and a GM to decide on the level of expertise required to achieve a more tangible result, but I could certainly see the case being made for things such as bonuses to Willpower tests made against psychic powers, sealing locations against the intrusion of the warp, blessings of weapons in various degrees and more.

Sealing a place from warp and sanctifying a weapon (temporally) are things the Sororitas Reinforcement Character can do with Fate Points. It is reminiscent of the Faith Talents of DH1e. I think we will get more of them in "Enemys within". These can work as rituals as well, especially in the Ward from Warp talent it mentions that it takes hours to perform. It is a ritual.

You might want to take a look at that.

Almost forgot something:

More than that would certainly be up to a player and a GM to decide on the level of expertise required to achieve a more tangible result, but I could certainly see the case being made for things such as bonuses to Willpower tests made against psychic powers, sealing locations against the intrusion of the warp, blessings of weapons in various degrees and more.

In addition to such "warp feedback" effects there could also be personal bonuses that depend on such an increase in Willpower, but are entirely natural in their .. uh, nature. Have you heard of things such as hysterical strength , pain suppression , zen-focus , etc? All these phenomena, I like to use the term "mind over matter" for them, are sufficiently documented as to say they exist in our real world, and could even be used to explain the backgrounds of various feats from our own mythology.

It boils down to a greater control over our bodies than what is considered "normal", be it by unlocking reserves that our bodies would otherwise prevent us from using consciously, or by blocking out stimuli that our body considers part of everyday operation. It is why sports psychology is now a real thing, and explains how the performance of athletes and other people is effectively dependent on their morale.

This is exactly where I see the Sororitas' Acts of Faith come in - not connected to the Warp in any way (except for the aforementioned feedback to Warp-based phenomena), but rather about unlocking the full potential of well-trained bodies that were forged throughout 16+ years of a harsh training regimen within the Scholae Progenium, combined with a lifestyle that focuses on seeking spiritual equilibrium in prayer and on generating a mind so stubborn that it is supremely focused on the accomplishment of a single task, even above considerations such as glory, honour, or the wellbeing of their fellow Sisters.

This is also in line with the Sororitas' codex stating that they are "considered miracles by the unschooled ", or how GW's d100 game Inquisitor clarified that AoF are not psychic in nature.

From when I was working on a fan-supplement to bring Battle Sisters into the Deathwatch RPG, this is the section I wrote on Acts of Faith to provide an example of how I would deal with them. You'll note that, compared to the RAW, I made them notably less flashy (closer to the Inquisitor's Handbook than Blood of Martyrs ), to a point where un-superstitious folks could attribute them entirely to skill or coincidence, yet where religious people may still see the hand of the God-Emperor.

I consider this to be a good representation of the "shades of grey" within the setting, where the nature of Acts of Faith is left deliberately vague and open to interpretation. Plus, this way it's a lot easier to explain the Space Marines continued disbelief in the Emperor as a god, as opposed to an RAW Sororitas just banging on their door, shooting her laser eyes, and telling them to start praying now that they have proof.

And I could see the same system apply to non-Sororitas religious characters (mainly referring to Ministorum clergy, but could also mean stuff like tribal shamans or even heretical sects) as well, although I would like different kinds of religious characters use different Acts of Faith - both to prevent an overlap and preserve the unique nature of these effects, as well as to better represent the different lifestyles and interpretations of faith. Still, they all share the same source of their "abilities" - the power of their faith.

These can work as rituals as well, especially in the Ward from Warp talent it mentions that it takes hours to perform. It is a ritual.

You might want to take a look at that.

madMAEXX, what's the source for the Ward from Warp talent? It's not in the DH2 Core Rulebook is it?

On a slightly different, but I believe relevant note, I just came across the rules for Sorcerers in Disciples of the Dark Gods. Standard humans enacting micro-rituals to approximate psyker powers, albeit more wildly and less successfully. Perhaps another avenue for ritualizing 'magic' in DH2? This is the first time I've seen non-psykers be able to pick up pseudo-psyker as a talent. I own all of the BC splat books and haven't seen anything like this, and it made me so giddy. Did this ever get ported to any of the other systems?

I believe Sorcery was covered in Rogue Trader as well.

They decided not to do it in BC because they decided sorcerers and psykers could just follow the same rules and mechanics.

madMAEXX, what's the source for the Ward from Warp talent? It's not in the DH2 Core Rulebook is it?

Page 296 under Sisters of Battle Faith Talents:

Seal of Purity: Instead of a Free Action, the character must spend one hour drawing a blessed seal 3 metres in length. Once completed, the seal lasts for the encounter's duration, or for 1 hour of narrative time. Daemons and other Warp-spawn can neither cross, nor disturb the seal. Furthermore, psychic powers manifested by such creatures cannot affect anything within or beyond the seal.

I referred to that. Just didn't remember the name spontanously. It costs her a Fate Point to enact this ritual.

I believe Sorcery was covered in Rogue Trader as well.

They decided not to do it in BC because they decided sorcerers and psykers could just follow the same rules and mechanics.

Well yeah, any psychic power related to a chaos god or undivided is Sorcery. And you still have rites and rituals that require no Psychic power at all.

And in case you really want your non-psyker characters to use Sorcery, I think you could easily make a deal with a daemon or add relevant talents or use your Forbidden Knowledge skill as a basis to determine how much "PR rating" you get and how many powers while still not being a Psyker.