Sorry, but it's really hard for me to totally buy it any time anyone says "PtL Soontir (is) super doomed." Against some of the auto-damage builds, sure, maybe. But against anyone that's rolling to hit? No. Sorry. Taking Soontir down is never a sure thing.

well, that's the magic of tactician and R3-A2. No rolling

but I do agree, "super doomed" doesn't exist in this game. It's going to come down 100% to the players' strategy and tactics (turret luck excepted, ofc; you're not beating fat han with a prototype).

Tactician and R3-A2 offer us some incredibly potent tools against arc-dodgers, but if the game was won in the list-building stage...well, we wouldn't even play now would we ?

Yep. I've flown these guys against some very, very good Phantom/Interceptor players. I have never had problems getting them into the R2 Tactician/R3A2 danger zone.

And yes, Soontir isn't guarenteed to actually be hit. However, once Soontir takes more than one stress token, he is in serious trouble. He can't perform any actions to evade arcs. All a B-Wing has to do is execute a move that puts them directly behind him before he reveals his dial. At that point, there is nowhere Soontir can go that the B-Wing cannot follow, usually while keeping him in range 2 to maintain pressure, and he's relying on unmodified green dice to protect him.

You can try to hold him out until the B-wings are otherwise engaged, but then you're sending a 65-70 point list against a 100-point list for a few turns. You're still giving your opponent an advantage there.

It's not perfect, but the people who are saying "Just keep your arc-dodger out of range 2 of four different ships!" have clearly never tried to stay out of range 2 of four different ships who are deliberately trying to hunt that arc-dodger.

Nope sorry, that can't be the best list because it's not imperial.

Obviously......

I ran this list in the store championship All the way to last place and yes i know how to play the game. I have in it from the begins, have the swap to prove it.

There is a lot that can counter it but notjing like bad dice rolls. One round throwing 16 only to get 2 hits but it was not all bad luck some of the builds i faced were just hard on 1 green.

The star viper eats Bs. Its a massacre.

For that squad, you have to split up your attacks to distribute the stress among enemy ships. Not the best way to blow up enemy ships.

the only problem with Flechette lists is Large ship have more than 4 hull. Which makes them a waste of 2 points. I just saw a battle where nera had two, and she found 2 firesprays. So her ability and the torps were basically useless.

For that squad, you have to split up your attacks to distribute the stress among enemy ships. Not the best way to blow up enemy ships.

You don't split attacks. You focus fire as normal, layering multiple stress on lynchpin ships and generally rendering them useless.

Anyone who relies on Advanced Sensors, Push the Limit, Experimental Interface, Ysana Isaard, Advanced Cloaking Device, and countless other free action effects are going to at least take a few turns out of the fight to clear stress if you manage to hit them twice. It also limits their damage output, since they won't be able to focus or Target Lock their attacks.

Sorry, but it's really hard for me to totally buy it any time anyone says "PtL Soontir (is) super doomed." Against some of the auto-damage builds, sure, maybe. But against anyone that's rolling to hit? No. Sorry. Taking Soontir down is never a sure thing.

well, that's the magic of tactician and R3-A2. No rolling

but I do agree, "super doomed" doesn't exist in this game. It's going to come down 100% to the players' strategy and tactics (turret luck excepted, ofc; you're not beating fat han with a prototype).

Tactician and R3-A2 offer us some incredibly potent tools against arc-dodgers, but if the game was won in the list-building stage...well, we wouldn't even play now would we ?

Yep. I've flown these guys against some very, very good Phantom/Interceptor players. I have never had problems getting them into the R2 Tactician/R3A2 danger zone.

And yes, Soontir isn't guarenteed to actually be hit. However, once Soontir takes more than one stress token, he is in serious trouble. He can't perform any actions to evade arcs. All a B-Wing has to do is execute a move that puts them directly behind him before he reveals his dial. At that point, there is nowhere Soontir can go that the B-Wing cannot follow, usually while keeping him in range 2 to maintain pressure, and he's relying on unmodified green dice to protect him.

You can try to hold him out until the B-wings are otherwise engaged, but then you're sending a 65-70 point list against a 100-point list for a few turns. You're still giving your opponent an advantage there.

It's not perfect, but the people who are saying "Just keep your arc-dodger out of range 2 of four different ships!" have clearly never tried to stay out of range 2 of four different ships who are deliberately trying to hunt that arc-dodger.

I have problems believing in absolutes one way (B-wings w/tacticians kick XYZ's teeth in) or another (B-wings w/tacticians are too situational to use). There's always a middle ground in-between the two extremes, and that's where the gameplay comes in.

Remember, this game is far more complex than we can completely express on the forums. There are, for example, some two key weaknesses I have had to deal with when running my Stress Luke list

First, "one stress? no biggie"

A Soontir player can elect not to PTL and a phantom really doesn't care about one stress if the opponent is a savy hit and run player because Whisper will have re-cloaked (unless said stress was dealt before ACD triggers, then it's a huge problem), aquired a new target-lock, gained a focus, and will be ready to work around her limited green maneuvers with a de-cloak next turn.

While it is incredibly difficult to dodge several tacticians, taking one token is not the end of the world for these pilots (although it is far more troublesome for Soontir than a re-cloaked Whisper). This gives opponents a bit of breathing room that they can very well exploit, especially considering the following.

The bloody B-wing dial

While I love the B-wing dial, it comes with some problems you can't really appreciate until they come to bite you in the ass. The most blatant one is that bloody 2k turn. As cool as it is (especially with sensors) it makes 180ing incredibly difficult in a traffic jam.

Another blatant weakness: B-wings don't go very far. This really didn't come to light until I started playing Defenders (by imperial "b-wing" analog i.t.o control lists), but holy hell these guys can't cover much distance. You know what can cover a lot of distance? Bloody Soontir and phantoms.

Basically, the B-wing is no Y-wing (stupid range 1-2 turret) but the tactician variant does not work well at either extreme. Arc-dodging is easier at close range, especially with the 2k-turn getting all kerfuffled, and green dice become effective at longer range. While barrel-roll allows the B-wing to exercise some much needed flexibility, the fact that it is heavily limited to speed 1-2 maneuvers makes this distance much easier to control than most people realize. As the B-wing player, you have to work for your tacticians.

Tl;Dr: Tactician B-wings aren't perfect. You are not guaranteed stress on the opponent nor are you guaranteed effective stress (as in, oh boy I'm stressed wheee~~ stress gone, here have 5 red dice) just because you paid for the upgrade. Similarly, the arc-dodgers are not guaranteed to just chortle chortle at the Blue Peasants as they bumble around trying futilely to catch the Baron and...whatever the hell whisper is.

The reality of the interaction between these ships is much more complex, but it can be sort of summarized like this: it's a game of cat and mouse.

"I ran into Whisper at the third round of my SC and it was flown by basically the most intimidating player in the group (won the last four casual tournies and the last SC)."

My man JohnnyD144.

Soontir Fel gets a focus token every time you hit him with Tactician. Pretty sure he can arc dodge the Bs and take his free focus if he's shot at.

Fly casual and carry a big bomb.

FFG really needs to drop an X-Wing news article tomorrow for the sake of all are sanity.....

the only problem with Flechette lists is Large ship have more than 4 hull. Which makes them a waste of 2 points. I just saw a battle where nera had two, and she found 2 firesprays. So her ability and the torps were basically useless.

You'd still be doing a range 2-3 attack- outside your firing arc- with 3 dice against 2. That's not nothing.

Soontir Fel gets a focus token every time you hit him with Tactician. Pretty sure he can arc dodge the Bs and take his free focus if he's shot at.

again, cat and mouse

a single stress becomes a focus, no big deal (though it's hard to use against the Bs because tacts trigger after the attack, unlike R3-A2) but two+ stress will take you right into the DANGER ZONE

Soontir Fel gets a focus token every time you hit him with Tactician. Pretty sure he can arc dodge the Bs and take his free focus if he's shot at.

again, cat and mouse

a single stress becomes a focus, no big deal (though it's hard to use against the Bs because tacts trigger after the attack, unlike R3-A2) but two+ stress will take you right into the DANGER ZONE

And nobody....I mean nobody really wants Kenny Loggins to show up!

Soontir Fel gets a focus token every time you hit him with Tactician. Pretty sure he can arc dodge the Bs and take his free focus if he's shot at.

again, cat and mouse a single stress becomes a focus, no big deal (though it's hard to use against the Bs because tacts trigger after the attack, unlike R3-A2) but two+ stress will take you right into the DANGER ZONE

And nobody....I mean nobody really wants Kenny Loggins to show up!

Speak for yourself.

Soontir Fel gets a focus token every time you hit him with Tactician. Pretty sure he can arc dodge the Bs and take his free focus if he's shot at.

again, cat and mouse a single stress becomes a focus, no big deal (though it's hard to use against the Bs because tacts trigger after the attack, unlike R3-A2) but two+ stress will take you right into the DANGER ZONE

And nobody....I mean nobody really wants Kenny Loggins to show up!

Speak for yourself.

I'd take Stan Bush over Kenny Loggins any day of the week!

Wheelie say Weird Al's okay.

Danger Zone is an epic song to wake up to though. For days when you want to be Ravenclaw, all energetic and rushing along headstrong.

For Slytherin days, take the theme to House of Cards.

Ruthless black squad is not scared of your Bs

4 Talas & 2 Daggers will kill blues quickly, I've been having a ball with this list, eating up swarms and 2 ship builds alike

A phantom will NEVER be in range 2.

A bold statement here. I feel like I don't even need to make a counterpoint to refute it. Phantom pilots always get cocky about their perceived invulnerability until they get hit. I love letting them play into that too and normally clear the Phantom before round 3 begins.

I brought Yorr+Mara Jade alongside Fel and Jax specifically for this squad. The Ties would zoom around the back while Yorr approaches from the side to ensure the B-wings couldn't K-turn, and the TIE interceptors would devour them from behind. Unfortunately, nobody brought Panic Attack to the Store Championship, so I didn't get to try it.

Also, I've had good success against this type of list with 4x Royal Guard, two with Ruthlessness and two with Predator. Not particularly strong against other list, so I anticipate the Tactician Blues to place higher in a tournament setting. Probably.

A phantom will NEVER be in range 2.

A bold statement here. I feel like I don't even need to make a counterpoint to refute it. Phantom pilots always get cocky about their perceived invulnerability until they get hit. I love letting them play into that too and normally clear the Phantom before round 3 begins.

Bad Phantom pilots get cocky about their perceived invulnerability. Good Phantom pilots are well aware of how squishy the ship actually is and fly it accordingly.

I won a store championship with Carnor Jax, Captain Kagi, and Rexlar Brath. My final opponent was playing "Panic Attack" (3 Tac B's, and Ion/R3A2 Y). I didn't allow a single Range 2 attack against Jax from the B's.

So...no.

A phantom will NEVER be in range 2.

A bold statement here. I feel like I don't even need to make a counterpoint to refute it. Phantom pilots always get cocky about their perceived invulnerability until they get hit. I love letting them play into that too and normally clear the Phantom before round 3 begins.

Bad Phantom pilots get cocky about their perceived invulnerability. Good Phantom pilots are well aware of how squishy the ship actually is and fly it accordingly.

That's the truth right there. I would say for every good Phantom pilot there are about 10 overconfident ones who had some luck getting matched against other weaker pilots.

I am often repeating the object lesson here on the boards and in real life; the Phantom will engage or it is worthless. You have the choice to either fall into its trap or let it fly into yours.