Well... I am not quiet sure I you really should keep the players from handing down "work" to there henchmen. Yes, the standard "ranting" is of no use... but he is to push gear and move rigs and so on.

I expect that a crew of a 2km-lenght ship will have a couple of person who know there trade... and I am NOT talking about the players! Have the same "problem" with one of my groups in DH: they simply hand over work to people they can "acquiere". And honestly, as long as they are in a position of authority, I see nothing wrong with this!

The question a GM has to ask himself is, therefor, "what do my players WANT to play?" and prepare for the rest of it to be "fixed" by anonymous npc... if the dice fall right, of course (all npc dice roles are HIDDEN in my games...). But is this situation that different from "standard GM work"? I guess not!

The problem I do see is to come up with "tasks/problems/missions" that are a suitable challenge for some-one with a large ship and large crew at hand. Most of our "tried-and-true" standard problems simply do not work any longer! We have to find new ways, brethern! ...and I like the idea/challenge.

...therefore, I am a little dismayed by "Forsaken Bounty", since it manages to shoehorn it back into the "group of players have to solve it on there own"-affaire. A scenario that gives us all an idea HOW one can handle a situation where a pc brought along 50 trusted men... a scenario that gives us some ideas of problems like "leading men"... "planing a salvage run" and "deciding how to use your human resources"... and quick help for MASS COMBAT would have been usefull..

but well...you got my point and I should STOP ranting right now.

Thx!

Howdy,

While I've semi-followed this thread and the earlier Solo vs. Kirk thread for a while, I've finally decided to way in on this topic as I -- a potential player - see it.

And I have to say, I'm very troubled by one of the sentiments that has kept showing up time and again in both threads. And that is the sentiment that players have the right - nay, the obligation - to start delegating task to their nameless and faceless NPC crew. This trend doesn't sit will with me. For me, letting the players start delegating the task to the nameless hordes of Crew means that one or two thing is going to start happening: Either GM is going to be the one spending the evening rolling bones while the players (or me) slowly drift off into boredom. Or that the players are going to end up playing DH level characters- but answering to a Rouge Trader in place of an Inquisitor.

Here's an example of how I see the game going if the PCs are allowed to delegate task to their NPC crew. The scenario is that the PCs have (re)discovered a planet on the fringe of the Halo Stars.

Example One: The GM rolls the bones.

If the GM insist on strict control over all of the NPCs, the game is basically going to start feeling like the players are talking through short bead communications to the NPCs.

Player 1: The hangar bay has confirmed that the shuttle carrying the away team of NPCs has touched down on the planet next to the biggest settlement. We vox down and tell the NPCs that it's time to make first contact with the natives. This is the message we want them to relate: "We come in peace. <Insert rest of message here.>"

GM: Okay, here it goes. <Sound of dice rolling as the GM rolls for the NPC Crew's diplomacy/deception check.> <Rolling to see if the NPC natives figure out that they are being lied too.> <Rolling to see if one of the NPC Crew realizes that the native is going for his weapon.> <Rolling to see how the resultant fight goes.> <Rolling to see if the NPC Crew run away fast enough.> Ouch. All of the NPC crew you sent down managed to become ingredients in the native's stew pot.... High or low to see if the shuttle makes it back?

Player 1: High.

GM: <Roll is low.> Shuttle crashes after take off.

Example Two: Playing DH wherein the characters answer to a RT instead of a =][=.

.... Self-explanatory. Although hilarity might ensue if something like this happens:

GM:"Okay, if your RT will let you."

Player 1: Player 1 remembers that they are playing RT -- and not DH, "Waitaminute... aren't we playing RT? " Player 1 rummages through his papers, "Yeah! Here's the character we rolled up when started. Ya know, from the RT book?" Player 1 hands the GM his RT character.... who is the RT himself.

Honestly, neither of those examples sounds particularly fun to me. Example 1 is basically the players giving instructions to the NPCs for six hours, without the players ever picking up the d10s. The GM has made it clear that he controls both groups of NPCs and gets to role the dice. Example 2 basically sees the PCs playing ascended extras....

If I were playing the RT in a group tasked with making contact with newly (re)discovered planet, I know exactly how I'd play it out:

I'd send my Seneschal - effectively, my right hand man - down. With the Arch-Militant and a few naval armsmen (wearing those spiffy new red uniforms I go them) to act as the Seneschal's bodyguards. The Expiator is getting all excited -- well, as excited as an Ad Mech can get - because the planet is rumored to have an STC right where we're landing. The Missionary's off his rocker again, foaming at the mouth at the chance to convert the natives back to the Emperor's light... Ya know what? I just realized I can't really trust the Seneschal all that much, I better go down too... I just hope the mission doesn't end like last time, with us running away from the natives as fast as we can....

Thanks,

Bluegrass

Well, Bluegrass, I believe you hit upon a major feature of the setting of Rogue Trader -the players are free to decide how to handle any situation given to them. If playing out a situation a certain way wouldn't be fun for you as a player, why would you chose to do such? If you're getting ice-cream and you like chocolate better the strawberry and both flavors were available, why would you get strawberry and then grumble that you much prefer chocolate? Choices on what you do and how you do it is always good. From what I've seen, in Rogue Trader, it will be up to the players on how they go about getting things done and, chances are, they will go about it in the way they prefer to play. If they like being the Mastermind in the Fortress, then perhaps they would like playing out orders to and from underlings and seeing the situation develop from affair. If they prefer more immediate and gratuitous violence, then they will probably chose to be the first to go down with 100 well armed men and commence slaughtering anything that moved, etc.

Oh, and the GM in option one isn't a very good GM at all. He should at least curtail the dice rolling to two rolls maximum and base the over all success or failure of the underlings based on the DoS or DoF scored. After all, his main concern should be whether the NPC's succeeded or failed (and to what degree) in the task they were sent out to accomplish and get the story moving to the next decision the players make and the next bit of drama as, in the example above, they have to find a way deal with pissed off cannibals. It would take maybe 3-5 minuets of game time depending on the amount of vox conversations and how wordy the GM is at the time. No matter the game, the story is about the PC's and the drama that surrounds them. If the PC's sit on high giving orders, then that's where the drama will be and that's what the GM needs to focus on. As pointed out above, sometimes it will take a different approach then the vanilla standard of most game setups. All that's needed for a fun game is investment in the characters by the players and drama focused on those characters.

Drama doesn't always come from one on one fights with some bad guy (that's the cheep default kind which is usually quite tasty, but there are so many other flavors). Any time the character is faced with a decision where something can be lost and/or gained and the repercussions of the decision will alter the character's life, the world around them, and/or the direction of the story, there will be drama. It would seem that Rogue Trader (especially with the Profit mechanic) will have opportunities for many many flavors of drama beyond the fighting for your life verity.

the concept of Rogue Trader will be a tough one for many ppl to handle, IF handled by way of the fluff (with multiple ships, and thousands of crew etc.). most RPGers think in terms of a party tackling all comers. but it needn't be this way on any level.

i would start small...with the Rogue Trader just getting his commission handed to him and a decent ship to ply the spacelanes. maybe he got it in a traditional way, maybe he won it a a high stakes dice game/stole from a drunken Trader/murdered for it. maybe he slept and fell in love with Admirals so and so daughter and wife and has all manners of popular support. not by the book canon, but it tells a starting story and gives a potential adversary for later.

a part of the adventure. is the building of his fleet. negotiating terms for mercenaries and other Freebooters to sign on with him. as time passes. he makes more profit and gets richer. coming in and out of Imperial space as he pleases. i see this all as being MORE not less limiting. a great time to bring in new xenos. human empires thriving on the outermost fringes. dead worlds that have nasties to uncover. political intrigues with potential mutinies and power struggles on ships. glorious space battles.

and actually an even better chance of having xenos, mutants and pskers as pals where they may or may not be molested by Imperial authorities. its the stuff of true high drama. if all done right. fear not, high adventure is here!

my misgivings comes not from the content as much as the rulesets introduced. i wonder how many pages will be duplicate material of whats already in the DH Core Rulebook.

The other thing that I'm worried about is this:

If the PCs are sort of like the commanding officers of their related fields, does that mean that on every away mission they can or will be expected to bring half a dozen mooks with them?

Like, the Missionary brings a bunch of clerics, the Explorator brings a bunch of tech-priests etc...

Is every battle gonna be larger scale? Like, three dozen mooks under the PCs vs. three dozen mooks under the antagonists?

My player group would rather avoid that, I think. If we can't then maybe this game won't be for us!

I think that if you don´t like mooks, then you won't have to use them. I get the feel that the crew on the ship is handled very abstract and it is suppose to be seen as a kind resource, like armour or engines. If you have a happy crew then your ship preforms better, so your aim is to keep them as happy as possibly. There might be some key persons with semi-personalities, depending on how much the group likes to interact with them, but in the end it is going to be like the usual focus on the players characters.

The setting, as we all know, is not a especially static one. GW, BL and now FFG make changes all the time to fit their needs. Now is a RT-RPG and that means they will change the setting again. FFG will make it work, and for a lot of people and styles of play. That is what they have done in the other games, DH and WHFRP, meaning they will probaly do it again. If you don´t like mooks, you won´t have to use them, if you like larger scale with the character as spiders in the net you will be able to play that way. Even if the "canon" states that all captains have a lot of mooks you should not assume that will be the case here, unless you want to because then the game will probably support it.

You will start pretty low key, with a small ship and getting the resouces to improve it and finally buy a bigger one is the probably the mainstream goal of the game. Traveller will of course be a huge inspiration and that is good. I do think that it will be less detailed though and more streamlined. The ship will be considered a extra character in the group and in space the characters skills will have a slight impact on the prefomance. I see a lot of number crushing but no problems handeling scale and mooks in the game. That will FFG take care of for us, which is all right and dandy.

With a few exceptions (firefly) most Sci-Fi shows seem have a far larger crews than the main characters, albeit this is rarely on the scale of 40K. Still all the really important events happen around the main characters, think about the away teams on Star trek they always seem to be made up of the commanding officers and maybe an odd redshirt. Despite the fact that the rest of the crew members are still highly trained Starfleet officers, (especially in regards to an Imperial crew) at least 90% of all problems seem to be solved by the main characters.

Fundamentally when it comes down to it, they are extras, NPC’s , redshirts and should be doing NPC type things such as:

• Lay down covering fire
• Act as diversions
• Carrying out the brilliant plans of the players that involve too many people for them to do themselves
• Dying in a multitude of horrible ways
• Manual Labour
• Introducing plot (Possibly also by dying in many horrible ways.)
• Acting as the relief force in last stand scenario’s/ when the player’s luck has ran out

If you feel that a set or subset of NPC’s are diverting attention and fun things away from the players. You have three choices:

1) Kill them off
2) Have them fail in such a way that the players have to get involved to fix the mess.
3) Stat them up (probably as low level dark heresy characters) and assign one to each player. So you essentially have a beta team of characters that can be switched too for any scenario where the main PC’s are distracted and someone else is required to be competent and do interesting things. (And regardless of how large the crew is the laws of narrativium mean that this secondary team will always be in position to do the interesting things.)
4) or if you want an occasional mass battle, were as a GM you haven't already decided the outcome it's not like there are a set of rules for mass battles set in the same universe.

I like #3. Have them make alternate low-level alts. Limit them to Adepts, Guardsmen, and Clerics at level 1.

Of course, if they send these alts on mission, the alts get the xp and not the RT characters. Once the alts get up to about level 4 or so, time to make new low-level alts, as the current ones have now reached high enough ranking positions that they don't go out on missions (like the RT).

I think this might convince the players to go ahead and use their RT characters, especially since their RT characters will be getting minimal xp. I mean, the meat of most of the adventures will be off-ship ... so if the RT doesn't go off ship and sits comfortably in his chair he's not going to get squat for XP.

LuciusT said:

Hello!

...Check out Reign by Stolze, Houses of the Blooded by Wick or Burning Empires by Crane... maybe even the Amber diceless game or the Nobilis RPG (on a different level) also, -- pretty powerful PCs!

Hope that helps

L

What I am getting from RT over DH is magnitude. And this should be played as best as possable.

In DH you have a =][= to report to and you worked in very small teams to find a small clue to solve a big problem.

In RT it will be a very BIG team with BIG ships finding that BIG planet to find that small treasure.

Here is how I plan on GM my games. Feel free to steal ideas.

My games are going to have a large fleet of ships. Of every kind, type role that I can think of. There will be a Master of the Fleet NPC. ( very much like the =][= in DH).

Each player character will come from a different ship in the fleet. They will either be a RT themselfs, Navagator, Master of Arms etc. but they will be someone of importance. Players will ALSO roll for their own ship. how it will look,feel, armed etc..( this I feel is a unique aspect of RT that I love)

So if I have 4 players I end up with a fleet of (min) 5 ships (players + master of the fleets)

What does this mean?

Each ship is the size of a city. The fleet would have the population of a small country. Looking at Battlestar G. (old and new) there was several shows where the story was on and involved only one ship. This would be the classic DH type play. (i.e.. You find that your chief engineer was murdered. Not the typical back stabbing but he was ritually sacrificed. Theis means that the players have to solve the murder, and MAY have a cult on their ship. Calling in re-enforcements from the other captains in the fleet etc etc.. the adventure begins). Playing it like cities or small countries will open a quick and unique feel. Also in between "Endeavors" this would make a good "side play" while traveling through the Warp (GM- you guys what to just skip the next 2 months of travel time or do you want to play a side story??)

With a Fleet, that means Fleet battles. I have played a RPG where a small ship means that one player would fly, one person would shot etc etc. With each player controlling his own ship. This will allow each player to get fully envolved in the Epic fleet battles we all love!!

For planet bound adventures I think someone also mentioned that the captains would be in it for the glory as well as the profit, so they would be the ones to go planet side.

While under a Fleet Master, this does mean that the RT is in control of them to accept endervors from him ,to an extent. Each Fleet captain is in charge of his own ship, and destiny. Being part of a fleet would be more 'profitable" and make sence vs Raiders/pirates (and also for Pirating) but does not stop the RT from doing his own buissness. Will the Fleet Master give permission for the RT to go on his own... don't know..the RT may be under contract to stay with the fleet (cargo, protection etc), but if the the adventure brings profit and fame to the Fleet.. why not??

Anyways.. I am looking forward this book to hit the shelfs. I think it is going to be unique and full of fun!!

edit for typo

I very much like EquYnoX' Idea about the Fleet Master. Hopefully the rulebook will contain such things. Otherwise I don't really know how a GM should "control" the game. And finally the Fleet Master could prevent the Rogue Trader career characters from feeling too important . Can't wait for it!

Thanks for the comments Terelo.

The more I think about it..My idea kinda has the ships as the main characters. with the player choosing from his ship who would be on the currect endeavor. and if he dies then just send anouther red shirt. (and why not... may shows are named after the ship...Enterprise. BSG, Serenity,SG Alanitis)

I'd like to be able to cross-transfer my established DH acolytes into the RT game at some point, they're about halfway to 2/3rds through their present careers and there's a couple of things they could do and established contacts they could use to get a privateers writ. That way they have come up through the hard knocks of being the hayseed that fell off the cart and managed to bumble through long enough to have that foundation of 'being someone' rather than a generated 'somebody' with a ship.

At the very least if theyre using generated characters I'm expecting some fairly intensive and expanded background on how they ended up where they are.

I've got high hopes for this game, many years ago we had a Starwars D6 game where characters where playing alliance privateers, starting off with a little corvette and eventually over a few years (play-time) raising a fleet of stolen ships, the massive crews, the supplies and raiding to take back the sector they operated in... But this time I don't have to give a **** about dumping a few torpedo tubes on some planet fulla gronks we don't like and disturbing the force