It works well against Fat Han, reducing defense dice to 0 so that C-3PO never comes into play. It's not bad against Whisper either, reducing it from a 4-defense dice behemoth to a regular 3-defense dice ship.

I know that PtL and Predator are considered better, but the lack of consideration that Outmaneuver gets is rather puzzling.

It doesn't work well with the ships it seems to fit. For the same price push the limit is almost always better. It's not a bad second ept for an a wing test pilot though.

You may start to see it a bit more. I think it is pretty good on Mandolarian Mercenaries, and potentially 20 point Tansarii Point Veterans.

Otherwise only A-wings get good use out of it, and for them it is pretty decent for mitigating their 2 lowly attack dice, and pretty only since they can combo it with another EPT.

As to your point about Fat Han, it only works against Fat Han (to prevent 3PO) if all of your ships have outmaneuver, or it is the only ship who shots at Han that turn (an ineffective strategy), as you are just shifting when he uses 3PO. The effect of outmaneuver is an illusion. Your point about Phantoms is accurate though, but obviously it wants to be on a 3 dice ship to be effective. Though Phantoms can fly to prevent it, that does impact their abilities somewhat.

Speaking for myself, I'd rather take something reliable and screw-up proof (Pred, PTL) than something I have to work for to achieve a similar end result.

Ptl and predator are just too good.

Its only a bit better than Predator for the same cost, and is much harder to activate.

It works well against Fat Han, reducing defense dice to 0 so that C-3PO never comes into play. It's not bad against Whisper either, reducing it from a 4-defense dice behemoth to a regular 3-defense dice ship.

I know that PtL and Predator are considered better, but the lack of consideration that Outmaneuver gets is rather puzzling.

if you shoot at han without an outmanuever ship, he still gets C-3PO and you've canceled little. It's only really going to cancel if you're the last man standing

PTL and Predator are considered better because they're not conditional for the same points. Outmanuever is expensive and difficult to enable reliably.

It is, however, imo essential on Jakes. Dude's too expensive to justify just those 2 dice

I think the Decimator is another deterrent to using this card as it is quickly out of favor against that ship, even against Kenkirk.

Wedge would be one of the pilot's I'd consider for this upgrade as taking away up to two evasion dice is quite nasty.

I think the Decimator is another deterrent to using this card as it is quickly out of favor against that ship, even against Kenkirk.

Wedge would be one of the pilot's I'd consider for this upgrade as taking away up to two evasion dice is quite nasty.

if Wedge could maneuver at all

Predator Wedge 100%

Outmaneuver is a great EPT but it hard to take it on anything but an A-Wing that gets two EPT slots. Ships that can really put it to the best use are high PS ships that can arc dodge and those are either going to end up with PTL or VI. Low PS ships, and ships that lack post maneuver positioning abilities don't have much ability to control when it triggers.

I think it would be great on Defenders or B-Wings but the generics lack EPT slots and the named pilots are either already a bit too expensive or have EPTs that either synergize well with their pilot abilities or need a specific EPT to make their pilot skill useful.

I think the Decimator is another deterrent to using this card as it is quickly out of favor against that ship, even against Kenkirk.

Wedge would be one of the pilot's I'd consider for this upgrade as taking away up to two evasion dice is quite nasty.

It's almost totally useless on wedge, theres not much somone will ignore in favor of wedge and it has no effect on decimators, yy1300s, shuttles and b wings off the top of my head.

I think it works on on Vessery. He already gets target locks so predator is redundant and he had to little green to make PTL work.

I think the Decimator is another deterrent to using this card as it is quickly out of favor against that ship, even against Kenkirk.

Wedge would be one of the pilot's I'd consider for this upgrade as taking away up to two evasion dice is quite nasty.

It's almost totally useless on wedge, theres not much somone will ignore in favor of wedge and it has no effect on decimators, yy1300s, shuttles and b wings off the top of my head.

You forgot Y-Wings, which is kinda funny seeing your avatar.

It's like Stress Porkins: it combos but flies casual.

I use out manuever on darth vader tie adv. out manuever engine upgrade and proton rockets pair with krasis trellix with hlc and tie support you have fun list. 5 dice proton rockets on shuttles b wings falcon s brutal when they cant evade . Doesnt need ptl built in 2 actions

Everyone else seems to have already tackled this one pretty well. It seems like a nice secondary EPT on an A-Wing, and that's really kind of it. Who else is (a) maneuverable enough to reliably be out of arc, but (b) not spending their sole EPT slot on Push the Limit, to capitalize on that maneuverability?

Outmaneuver is better than Predator/Push the Limit when you have natural damage improvement, but have a dearth of available actions.

Example: Chiraneu + Predator is a combo I've seen espoused, but begs the question "What do you do for your action, as you already manipulate a Focus result and have a Re-Roll?" Push the Limit is similarly poor here.

Outmaneuver is therefore better than they on Chiraneau.

Outmaneuver is also better when you have extra-planning mobility options (Boost, Barrel-Roll, Navigator, et c), guaranteeing that it procks more often.

However, whenever Extra-Planning mobility options are good with a card, so too is Player Skill, substituting knowledge for predictive skills.

Everyone else seems to have already tackled this one pretty well. It seems like a nice secondary EPT on an A-Wing, and that's really kind of it. Who else is (a) maneuverable enough to reliably be out of arc, but (b) not spending their sole EPT slot on Push the Limit, to capitalize on that maneuverability?

Not many

ATC Vader might join the a-wings, though...

EPTs are one of those slots were there are a lot of options but only a handful of them are optimal. You see EPTs like PTL VI and Lone Wolf used constantly but EPTs like Expert Handling, Wingman, and Marksmanship hardly used at all. The first 3 can be used well in a variety of scenarios. While the latter 3 can only be useful in specific situations.

I've used it to great effect on Wedge + R7T1 + ExpInt. It's not cheap, but it hits like a ton of bricks.

Outmaneuver is better than Predator/Push the Limit when you have natural damage improvement, but have a dearth of available actions.

Example: Chiraneu + Predator is a combo I've seen espoused, but begs the question "What do you do for your action, as you already manipulate a Focus result and have a Re-Roll?" Push the Limit is similarly poor here.

Outmaneuver is therefore better than they on Chiraneau.

Outmaneuver is also better when you have extra-planning mobility options (Boost, Barrel-Roll, Navigator, et c), guaranteeing that it procks more often.

However, whenever Extra-Planning mobility options are good with a card, so too is Player Skill, substituting knowledge for predictive skills.

I've used it to great effect on Wedge + R7T1 + ExpInt. It's not cheap, but it hits like a ton of bricks.

You should try Wedge with EH + R7-T1 + EI. Although you'll probably want a Wingman-Wingman with him.

Also I've found Outmaneuver-Wedge to be just as good without actions vs the majority of his targets and I've found Engine + R7 is a good alternative for 6pts. EI and R7-T1 being unique have stronger potential on other Pilots depending on your list.

If your opponent is good, he should be shooting back at you. Thus you're looking for angled ships usually in a GOOD balanced battle. Lets say that that gives you roughly 50% of the time Outmaneuver activates.

If we assume that they have a F, which is the worst case scenario (which is actually best value here, because you reduce for more) then all you have done is REDUCE 5/8TH A HIT. (0.625) but only 50% of your shots = 0.3125 hits.

If you're like me, you'll notice that Outmaneuver actually doesn't happen 50% of the time, I estimate only 30% of the time.

That sunk in deep enough?

If he has no F (which means he made a mistake and youre playing well, which is not a balanced game), then youve just negated a merry 3/8THS OF A HIT.

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In contrast for a 3 dice attacker, Predator off 3dice F will give you: 3 - (3 x 6/8) = 0.75 x 6/8 [predator reroll of remainder of blanks, up to 1) = 0.5625 hits.

This is also 100% of the time, thus it is better than Outmaneuver unless you can get Outmaneuver for every shot you take.

If you attack a low PS ship and get two rerolls, this helps mitigate your terrible dice rolls even better. I can't do the math on that, but it definitely increases your odds.

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Applications of Outmaneuver:

The C3PO example is "false": Yes, that ship with Outmaneuver won't cause C3PO to trigger, but if you attack Han with another ship, C3PO will trigger on that attack, meaning the same mitigation. The only way you can make Outmaneuver "counter" C3PO is to either only attack with the ship with Outmaneuver ( a losing idea against fat han), or to give all your ships Outmaneuver (also a bad idea, for reason of averages and squad building).

Whisper will tend to be out of arc of a lower PS ship. Either way, Predator still will do more damage on average, given equal skill opponents.

PTL for 3dice TL F = same average as Predator, as the remainder on 3dice F is .75, less than 1.

PTL for 4dice TL F = an increase from 3 hits average off only F to 3.75 off TL and F.

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any questions? or lingering doubts?

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Disclaimer: This doesn't mean Outmaneuver never should be used, there are some squads that like it. But in general, for simple value, Predator will win in theory and in practice.

Vessery and Scum Boba are possible uses for Outmaneuver because they already come with rerolls inherent in their pilot ability.

(Although, I would use VI or PTL for Scum Boba and Recon Spec/EU)

I also found in practice and in theory that Proton Rockets for an early bout of extra damage was a better use of 3 points in a Vessery build. I had three or four games of practice.

I think the Decimator is another deterrent to using this card as it is quickly out of favor against that ship, even against Kenkirk.

Wedge would be one of the pilot's I'd consider for this upgrade as taking away up to two evasion dice is quite nasty.

It's almost totally useless on wedge, theres not much somone will ignore in favor of wedge and it has no effect on decimators, yy1300s, shuttles and b wings off the top of my head.

You forgot Y-Wings, which is kinda funny seeing your avatar.

It's like Stress Porkins: it combos but flies casual.

Outmaneuver shutting down 3po is a reference to one on one scenarios that often happen during tight end games, I think that's what most people refer to. I had a list than ran Jake with out maneuver and ptl that focused on getting him to the end game and Jake did some mean things there against turrets, and this was pre autothrusters!

I really feel like echo is the best place for outmaneuver, but Vi is so much better.

Edit: Don't drink and post kids. <3 whiskey

It works well against Fat Han, reducing defense dice to 0 so that C-3PO never comes into play.

Only if every ship you have has it. Otherwise 3PO will just trigger on the second ship. It's a once per round effect.

I want to Echo* the thoughts about Phantoms and Outmaneuver. You'd need to already be guaranteed to be moving last, but if you were, you pretty much always want Phantoms behind everyone anyway, so it would be a natural.

*Sorry not sorry