How come very few people use Outmaneuver?

By gundamv, in X-Wing

to answer the OP's question, it's because it's overpriced and it sucks.

While I don't know if Outmaneuver will ever become terribly popular, I'm thinking PtL is gonna drop off more and more. It's awesome in the right conditions but with as much stress as there is these days, its value is rapidly diminishing. And that's especially bad because the ships that have it are usually dependent on it for survival.

I use it with Xizor/Virago and the Aggressor.

-Cal

It works well on scum Kath as she wants things in her rear arc giving you more freedom to move in to a favourable position.

Outmaneuver works very well against Kavil

Already been mentioned: PTL and pred.

Pred getting the more effective attack, is better than OM as them green dice are not reliable, giving an opponent one less to roll situationally isn't that great.

Outmaneuver is better than Predator/Push the Limit when you have natural damage improvement, but have a dearth of available actions.

Example: Chiraneu + Predator is a combo I've seen espoused, but begs the question "What do you do for your action, as you already manipulate a Focus result and have a Re-Roll?" Push the Limit is similarly poor here.

Outmaneuver is therefore better than they on Chiraneau.

Outmaneuver is also better when you have extra-planning mobility options (Boost, Barrel-Roll, Navigator, et c), guaranteeing that it procks more often.

However, whenever Extra-Planning mobility options are good with a card, so too is Player Skill, substituting knowledge for predictive skills.

Used Outmaneuver on a flanking Green sqdr with Refit and Opportunist. Suddenly you can have a tiny A-wing tossing 4 dice at you while reducing your Agility by 1 as well. Won two games with that list thus far. Just casual though.

If the upgrade were to only cost 2 points then it would be far more interesting. As others have said, however, for 3 points, I'd rather go for something with a near garantee return of value like push the limit, predator or lone wolf.

At 2 points, mayhaps. Otherwise it's too expensive compared to other upgrades as other people have said. It is good for a second upgrade on the a-wing, however.

I've learned that most people don't use flankers and if they try, they're terrible at doing it. The more popular EPTs are ones that always proc, like PTL or Predator, because then people don't have to think as hard. It's better for the EPT to always apply even if you screw up. Also, it's not an offensive EPT, which people tend to prefer more offensively minded EPTs.

Putting it on a ship that flanks is only natural, such as Echo. I have seen Echo take out entire squads by himself with this EPT. It doesn't make sense for Echo to play the PS bid since he can only get to PS 8. It's fun to watch people realize their B-Wings roll 0 dice to a 5 dice attack with TL+F and they will not be attacking back.

Outmaneuver's problem isn't price really, it's competition. Outmaneuver is good if you can trigger it, which means you need an agile ship. Problem is, the three ships best equipped to make maximum use of it (A-wing, TIE interceptor and TIE phantom) all come with strong reasons not to use it. For the TIE interceptor, it means sacrificing Push The Limit, which very few interceptor pilots will do unless for the sake of it. It's less of an issue for the A-wing which doesn't have the opportunity cost EPTwise and isn't as autoPTL as the interceptor, but you don't want to stack too much cost on a two firepower ship. The TIE phantom is terrible with PTL and would be a god with Outmaneuver but Veteran Instincts is pretty much autoinclude on them. Were VI somehow not an option for phantoms I think we'd see Outmaneuver on them much more.

Then we've got the TIE defender which, with its white K-turn was probably made with Outmaneuver in mind. Thing is, of the two pilots with EPTs one wants to focus which makes Predator's reroll the much more attractive option. Vessery, with his built in rerolls makes Predator almost redundant and thus is a much more attractive candidate for Outmaneuver.

It'll be interesting to see if it finds a home on the StarViper or Aggressor. The Viper isn't really a PTL ship (the dials Wave 4 forwards on arc dodgers tend to make PTL less autoinclude) but it's also low pilot skill for an arcdodger, meaning VI is in competition, and its normal action economy means that Predator's reroll is also a very attractive option. The Aggressor could potentially use it, especially on the constantly Segnoring variant where PTL is less attractive and Advanced Sensors protects your action economy.

Outmaneuver tends to be a card that fits pilots rather than ships. It's popular on Jake who has no issue arcdodging and has a spare EPT slot, Imperial Boba Fett can make good use of it as the rear arc counts as an arc and his ability makes him a psuedoturret against lower pilot skill (plot out his two possible firing arcs after triggering his ability and you'll see what I mean), Vessery simply because Predator's almost redundant on him, and probably a couple of others I can't think of right now.

At 2 points, mayhaps. Otherwise it's too expensive compared to other upgrades as other people have said. It is good for a second upgrade on the a-wing, however.

I agree. I think Outmaneuver would have been perfect at 2 points. At 3 points it has to compete with Predator and PTL, which it can't. For whatever reason FFG keeps overpricing upgrades that effect green dice You would have thought after 3 years they would have figured out that green dice suck.

I love outmaneuver and have been doing my best to fit it into as many lists as possible. After many failures and a few sucesses IMO it requires two things (well, three if you count the presence of an EPT slot):

A highly maneuverable ship. This is because you need to not only get out of arc, but you also need to be able to put your arc on the enemy. This means a good dial and at least one movement action (boost or barrel roll)

A ship with a primary attack value of 2. At 3+, predator is probably a better value. But at 2, predator might not even trigger, especially if you're using focus for attack. Moreover, even if predator does trigger, you're still capped at a measly two hits at range 2-3. Good luck getting that through anyone with focus and 3+ agility.

Right now there are three ships that check both of these boxes. The TIE Fighter, the Scyk and the A-Wing.

Since you're going to want something supporty/defensive for Howlrunner, the TIE Fighter really just means "Mauler Mithel" and Black Squadron pilots.

Mithel becomes a very very nasty glass cannon you can hide in your second wave of ships. The points are a concern, but if you're taking Mithel, I vastly prefer this as an EPT over something like Predator or PTL. A black squadron pilot with this is interesting, but I think I'd probably just take Backstabber for one less point.

The A-Wing shines because its dial is just SO good and it can synergize with other EPTs. The downside is that I find a barrel roll to be more useful than a boost for using this ability and the A-wing lacks a barrel roll.

The basic green squadron pilot with Push the Limit, Test Pilot and Outmaneuver is a great little ship. Their low PS means that it can be a struggle for them to arc dodge effectively. But don't worry. Simply focus/evade until you're on someone's tail and then focus/target lock and unleash two dice worth of pain. Or take a turn off from PTLing and pull a K-Turn. You will be surprised at the damage that can get through thanks to outmaneuver. Very good flanker, as others have said.

I generally don't put this on Tycho because I'm concentrating on using his ability to ignore stress and taking things like PTL, Daredevil or Expert Handling.

Arvel and Gemmer don't really have abilities that synergize with it. Gemmer is a better missile caddie (meaning I'm taking PTL) and if I ever used Arvel it would probably be with intimidation.

The real star for this upgrade is Jake Farrell. Outmaneuver, Push The Limit, Test Pilot and Refit leave you at a very decent 28 points. His ability plus his pilot skill means that he CAN arc dodge all but the highest pilot skills. One of my favorite tricks when an opponent is trying joust me is to focus, barrel roll away from them and push the limit to boost back towards them to end up out of arc but with the enemy in your arc. It's easier to pull off the closer they are and the closer Jake is to the edge of their arc.

The Scyks haven't hit the table for me yet. The Tansaari point vets with it would be intriguing.

Tansariis just get too pricey too fast. With OM and a Mangler they are 26 points. They wouldn't be a bad flanker, but you would need a lot of nasty stuff on the other side of the table for your opponent not to pounce on your 26 points tied up in 3 HPs.

Tansariis just get too pricey too fast. With OM and a Mangler they are 26 points. They wouldn't be a bad flanker, but you would need a lot of nasty stuff on the other side of the table for your opponent not to pounce on your 26 points tied up in 3 HPs.

Oh, I was talking about simple Tansarii's with outmaneuver for 20 points. It's probably crazy, but i want to try to find a build that makes the Scyk work without the title.

Tansariis just get too pricey too fast. With OM and a Mangler they are 26 points. They wouldn't be a bad flanker, but you would need a lot of nasty stuff on the other side of the table for your opponent not to pounce on your 26 points tied up in 3 HPs.

I think the idea would be to take Outmaneuver (20 pts.) instead of adding the Mangler (23 pts.). I'm not sure if I'd want to take an Outmaneuver Vet over a Mangler Spacer for the same cost though.

The real star for this upgrade is Jake Farrell. Outmaneuver, Push The Limit, Test Pilot and Refit leave you at a very decent 28 points. His ability plus his pilot skill means that he CAN arc dodge all but the highest pilot skills. One of my favorite tricks when an opponent is trying joust me is to focus, barrel roll away from them and push the limit to boost back towards them to end up out of arc but with the enemy in your arc. It's easier to pull off the closer they are and the closer Jake is to the edge of their arc.

If you pair Jake with Kyle Katarn (pilot), he can receive a focus token at the beginning of the combat round, which means his boost or barrell roll will come after any pilot skill. With his own focus token, he will have boosted, rolled, stacked up two focus, without needing to push the limit. That is the moment to blast a proton rocket up another ship's...rear engine.

Outmaneuver with ion cannons and crush all lists running less ships than you.

I'm not saying people never use it. I think I have used it once on Vader. (if you are going to get a TL then predator doesn't help you). But predator gives you a very similar result every time you shoot, not just in some circumstances.

Out Manuver might be better on a dedicated Arc-Dodger, but would your just want PtL for that ship anyway.

The real star for this upgrade is Jake Farrell. Outmaneuver, Push The Limit, Test Pilot and Refit leave you at a very decent 28 points. His ability plus his pilot skill means that he CAN arc dodge all but the highest pilot skills. One of my favorite tricks when an opponent is trying joust me is to focus, barrel roll away from them and push the limit to boost back towards them to end up out of arc but with the enemy in your arc. It's easier to pull off the closer they are and the closer Jake is to the edge of their arc.

If you pair Jake with Kyle Katarn (pilot), he can receive a focus token at the beginning of the combat round, which means his boost or barrell roll will come after any pilot skill. With his own focus token, he will have boosted, rolled, stacked up two focus, without needing to push the limit. That is the moment to blast a proton rocket up another ship's...rear engine.

You're missing a Target Lock on that Proton Rocket. Give Jake PTL and trigger that off of the action Kyle's focus gives him.

It doesn't work well with the ships it seems to fit. For the same price push the limit is almost always better. It's not a bad second ept for an a wing test pilot though.

I use it a lot in exactly this circumstance.

Test pilot with PTL and outmanouvre. A wings have such pitiful base attack that while you cant beef that up, if you can strip down the opponents green dice its almost as good as having an extra red.

I run four a wings with these EPTs, going to see if i can fit autothrusters in there as well :)

If you can get outmaneuver to function every time, you probably don't need it...

If you can get outmaneuver to function every time, you probably don't need it...

if you can get it to trigger every time, you probably need it even more

no amount of skill is going to get a lot of damage through 3 agility with only 2 red dice