At the same time, the OT was written in a particular way (Empire being basically all white British men) for a particular reason

Nah... It was probably just cheaper to do the filming and casting in London.

Was going to respond but decided :huh:

Can't believe people are still on this.

Tolerance doesn't mean acceptance, tolerance means being able to live with people having different opinions and in a truly diverse culture it's not a good idea, it's an absolute necessity. To think that everyone is always going to have the same opinion is simply not even remotely realistic.

You two want to actually help the LGBT cause, don't scream at, insult, and hate the people they're trying to convince to accept them.

Um... what about my response to you where I didn't scream at, insult, or hate on anyone?

Did I quote you? If you got caught in the midst of some quotes my apologies. My point is directed at those that think hating people or calling them names is the way to open eyes and change opinions, not to those that understand rational, mature, reasoned disagreements that put forth valid points are how you should influence any issue if you're actually selfless and interested in advancing an issue, as opposed to satisfying a self need for negative expression.

You didn't quote me at all. You seem to have passed it up entirely.

I actually thought Desslok's response to you was very well measured--not that it had to be. You seem to be positing this argument that in order for one to self-describe as "tolerant" that one must tolerate intolerance.

That is pretty much what I am trying to convince you away from. While tolerance, as a word, does mean having to live with and have an objective attitude to differing opinions, it also means to advocate for freedom from bigotry. One word means both. (It also means other things but that's beside the point.)

The Star Wars franchise has historically been exclusively heterosexual which is to say it excluded other sexual preferences and orientation. It is now becoming more inclusive. I think we can all say that this is a step in a positive direction. Advocating the continued or renewed exclusion of a group would be, by the very nature of the word, a regression .

Such a regression should not be tolerated because there is only so much exclusion that a person that identifies with that orientation can tolerate.

(edit, addition) Hence the metaphor of the "Kick Me" sign in my original post.

My responses have actually nothing to do with LGBT specifically and everything to do with how someone puts forth a disagreement or support for any issue. My posts are simply pointing out there isn't anything positive about hating people or calling them morons, if you actually want to sway opinions. It's just plain bad manners wrapped up in the excuse of a social issue.

Actually, IIRC you told me "to practice what I preach" and be tolerant of different opinions. I can't, for reasons earlier stated.

I am not one for being subtle and if someone is acting moronic I'll call them a moron. This doesn't mean I get into fights with everyone I disagree with, it means I lash out against bigotry (notice how my biggest disagreement here has been with you and I have not called you any names whatsoever?)

I find it strange to see you can't let go of the fact I called someone a moron but simply stepped over the "no homosexuality in MY Star Wars!" I know which of those I find inherently more offensive yet you tell me to respect that moron (yep I said it again) and be "inclusive" of his backward ways.

Why would you be personally offended by someone else not wanting homosexuality in their own vision of Star Wars?

Why would you be personally offended by someone else not wanting homosexuality in their own vision of Star Wars?

Yeah, let's act as if that is the normal thing to post such hateful ideas on message boards and how reasonable folk should just take that at face value and not be offended by it.

Again, replace "homosexuality" with "blacks" or "asian" or "women" and think how extreme such a viewpoint might be. Sure people might want such things and it would be no skin off my nose, had they not made the choice to post it on a message board where people were talking about it and thus making such a remark part of the discussion and actively promoting excluding groups of people.

"I don't want homosexuality in my Star Wars" pretty much equals "I don't want Jews in my Store".

Edit: In short if you are not personally offended by discrimination then I don't know what to tell you. I think I a have been very, very clear about my stance and I don't see how much clearer I could be.

It only equals your example if your store only exists in your mind. If the store is a real place excluding real people, the situation would be quite different. Since there are no real people in Star Wars, there isn't anyone really being excluded since each person can imagine what they like in their own vision of a galaxy far far away.

Yeah, you can try to reason all you want and in a way you might be right however as soon as you use a message board to put those ideas forward they are no longer restricted to "your mind".

Again, magine someone saying the same thing about black people, would you say the same thing then?

Also, not knowing what to tell someone is far less offensive when it isn't followed by telling someone they're a moron.

Also, not knowing what to tell someone is far less offensive when it isn't followed by telling someone they're a moron.

Well, you are not... So no need to tell you.

Oh, the issues with the OT would have to do with the 1 or 2 woman among hundreds of men. And the 1 black man among hundreds of whites and being portrayed as an untrustworthy (yet highly likeable) scoundrel.

Like I said, Star Wars could do with being a lot less "white bread".

There seems to be some progress on this front. Episode 7 has a black stormtrooper, and Rebels has 2 female leads, one of whom is dark skinned and voiced by a black actress. And of course there is a *** character in the new novel. I do see how this could all be seen as carefully calculated "diversity washing" to coin a phrase.

Just pointing out that -

Tiya Sircar who does the Voice of Sabine is of Indian Descent not African American. So calling her a Black Actress is no appropriate, but your point of there being Diversity in the Actors doing the voices is valid.

Why would you be personally offended by someone else not wanting homosexuality in their own vision of Star Wars?

Yeah, let's act as if that is the normal thing to post such hateful ideas on message boards and how reasonable folk should just take that at face value and not be offended by it.

Again, replace "homosexuality" with "blacks" or "asian" or "women" and think how extreme such a viewpoint might be. Sure people might want such things and it would be no skin off my nose, had they not made the choice to post it on a message board where people were talking about it and thus making such a remark part of the discussion and actively promoting excluding groups of people.

"I don't want homosexuality in my Star Wars" pretty much equals "I don't want Jews in my Store".

Edit: In short if you are not personally offended by discrimination then I don't know what to tell you. I think I a have been very, very clear about my stance and I don't see how much clearer I could be.

Tolerance doesn't mean acceptance, tolerance means being able to live with people having different opinions and in a truly diverse culture it's not a good idea, it's an absolute necessity. To think that everyone is always going to have the same opinion is simply not even remotely realistic.

You two want to actually help the LGBT cause, don't scream at, insult, and hate the people they're trying to convince to accept them.

Um... what about my response to you where I didn't scream at, insult, or hate on anyone?

Did I quote you? If you got caught in the midst of some quotes my apologies. My point is directed at those that think hating people or calling them names is the way to open eyes and change opinions, not to those that understand rational, mature, reasoned disagreements that put forth valid points are how you should influence any issue if you're actually selfless and interested in advancing an issue, as opposed to satisfying a self need for negative expression.

You didn't quote me at all. You seem to have passed it up entirely.

I actually thought Desslok's response to you was very well measured--not that it had to be. You seem to be positing this argument that in order for one to self-describe as "tolerant" that one must tolerate intolerance.

That is pretty much what I am trying to convince you away from. While tolerance, as a word, does mean having to live with and have an objective attitude to differing opinions, it also means to advocate for freedom from bigotry. One word means both. (It also means other things but that's beside the point.)

The Star Wars franchise has historically been exclusively heterosexual which is to say it excluded other sexual preferences and orientation. It is now becoming more inclusive. I think we can all say that this is a step in a positive direction. Advocating the continued or renewed exclusion of a group would be, by the very nature of the word, a regression .

Such a regression should not be tolerated because there is only so much exclusion that a person that identifies with that orientation can tolerate.

(edit, addition) Hence the metaphor of the "Kick Me" sign in my original post.

My responses have actually nothing to do with LGBT specifically and everything to do with how someone puts forth a disagreement or support for any issue. My posts are simply pointing out there isn't anything positive about hating people or calling them morons, if you actually want to sway opinions. It's just plain bad manners wrapped up in the excuse of a social issue.

Actually, IIRC you told me "to practice what I preach" and be tolerant of different opinions. I can't, for reasons earlier stated.

I am not one for being subtle and if someone is acting moronic I'll call them a moron. This doesn't mean I get into fights with everyone I disagree with, it means I lash out against bigotry (notice how my biggest disagreement here has been with you and I have not called you any names whatsoever?)

I find it strange to see you can't let go of the fact I called someone a moron but simply stepped over the "no homosexuality in MY Star Wars!" I know which of those I find inherently more offensive yet you tell me to respect that moron (yep I said it again) and be "inclusive" of his backward ways.

You're misquoting, which is the same thing as lying. That poster said he didn't want to see Star Wars politicized and sexualized and he didn't want homesexual behavior in Star Wars. I don't think any sexual behavior belongs in Star Wars personally, and there is far too much sexualization in media. There's a difference between being a bigot and simply thinking a genre is an inappropriate place to explore an issue. If asked he might have said something like he prefers Star Wars to stick to its pop serial roots and keep it light and simple. You don't know because you didn't try and engage this person and ask them anything, you leapt to a conclusion and started disparaging them.

If you aren't willing to engage people that don't agree with you in an adult fashion how do you precisely plan to ever make anything better? Saying you are just going to name call people you consider bigots only hurts any cause. People's opinions change over time as they consider things, but if they have a less than open view of a particular group and when they say so the reaction they get is to be called a moron, all you're accomplishing is reinforcing their negative view. In other words your attitude makes things worse.

That poster said he didn't want to see Star Wars politicized and sexualized and he didn't want homesexual behavior in Star Wars.

That poster has conflated the idea of sexualizing , that is to say the improper imposition of sexual objectification, with the idea of a character who is identified as homosexual . There is nothing improper about a homosexual identity. The expression of the equation of those two ideas has a negative affect on real-life people.

I don't think any sexual behavior belongs in Star Wars personally, and there is far too much sexualization in media.

How does "a character that is homosexual" mean "sexual behavior"? Every single one of the movies and TV shows (perhaps all the canon books, too) has exhibited heterosexual behavior. Does that make the Star Wars franchise "sexualized"?

Han and Leia kissed and overtly expressed in words their heterosexual affection for each other. Is that a political statement? Is Star Wars now politicized?

The answer to those questions is, "No. Of course not." If you agree then you can start to see why a homosexual character in a book is neither sexualizing nor is it politicizing.

Perhaps what is being hinted at here is that the idea of a homosexual character in a book either creates discomfort for that poster or may make others uncomfortable. Confronting that discomfort and dealing with it is the first step in ensuring justice.

If you aren't willing to engage people that don't agree with you in an adult fashion how do you precisely plan to ever make anything better? Saying you are just going to name call people you consider bigots only hurts any cause. People's opinions change over time as they consider things, but if they have a less than open view of a particular group and when they say so the reaction they get is to be called a moron, all you're accomplishing is reinforcing their negative view. In other words your attitude makes things worse.

Regarding this point:

1. What are these rules for how we should be policing our tone when providing feedback about bigotry?
2. Where did you get those rules?
3. Whom do those rules serve?

I didn't misquote, nor lie. I paraphrased and in the mean time Deve already pointed this out.

Furthermore we are going in circles. However, everytime we go round the circle is getting smaller and smaller and it now turns out you too seem to believe homosexuality = sex and heterosexuality means love... Because one is perfectrly fine in Star Wars and the other shouldn't be there.

For the rest I'll refrain from repeating what Deve said because he puts my ideas forward pretty well.

Its Bullcrap, stop sexualizing and politicizing everything! Homosexual behavior has no place in Star Wars!

"Homosexual behaviour" is what exactly? And what is its 'opposite'?

Seems a whole shitstorm got started, I simply stated what I believe since up to that point no one else had a different opinion. I usually only come on the forums to get an opinion on rules questions or some info on a book or something, and try to avoid "Forum politicking". But Star Wars has always meant a lot to me having seen it as a kid several times in the theater during the 70's and growing up with it, it was an amazing childhood, and I am so grateful to my family, friends, George Lucas and everyone who made the films, and God for having that shared experience.

I stand completely by my statement regardless of the idiotic insults and replies which I only read a few and skimmed the rest. Star Wars is not Game Of Thrones, Nightmare on Elm Street, Reefer Madness, or Debbie Does Dallas. Star Wars is a family friendly multi-generational epic tale of good v/s evil ( I have the films in mind mainly here). They are films everyone could enjoy, it didn't push any particular views rather it enriched the views commonly held by us all. Family, Friendship and Faith and the necessity to protect them from any tyranny that would threaten them. Throwing crap into SW that doesn't belong, gore, sex acts, political issue morality lessons, takes away from the enjoyment of storytelling "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away…" We take part in a story that transcends our real world of politics and social issues, and forget about our own problems and issues for a while. Don't take that away! We all need a break from the cares and worries of this world, don't ruin the childhood moments!

I play Star Wars The Old Republic online game. It may surprise you to know I support the same sex options in the newer expansions. Why? Because its a different venue within the SW universe. In TOR you are an active participant you PARTICIPATE in the story, you have to actively pursue the romantic dialogues, you can choose who you love, or not, like in real life. In Film, or Novel storytelling you are a SPECTATOR watching the story unfold. Your option is to close the book, or stop watching the movie. Lets have books and movies we ALL can enjoy. Just like the first ones.

And to all you crass, miserable, reprobates who have to force your stupid pet issue's into everything and force everyone to think exactly as you under the guise of "tolerance" and "equality", I would like to share with you another fond tradition from my childhood. A warm, heartfelt, and hardy THHBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBT!

Lets have books and movies we ALL can enjoy. Just like the first ones.

So, we remove everything that could possibly offend any of the six billion-plus sentient beings on this planet.

Would that leave anything?

Instead of trying to exclude everything that could potentially offend one of the six billion-plus sentient beings on this planet, I submit that the better solution is to try to put things INTO the movies that allow a broader audience to positively identify with the characters being portrayed.

Which kind of leads us back to the original post on this thread.

Seems a whole shitstorm got started, I simply stated what I believe since up to that point no one else had a different opinion. I usually only come on the forums to get an opinion on rules questions or some info on a book or something, and try to avoid "Forum politicking". But Star Wars has always meant a lot to me having seen it as a kid several times in the theater during the 70's and growing up with it, it was an amazing childhood, and I am so grateful to my family, friends, George Lucas and everyone who made the films, and God for having that shared experience.

Not surprised to see "God" there for some reason...

I stand completely by my statement regardless of the idiotic insults and replies which I only read a few and skimmed the rest.

Yeah, because arguments... who cares, right?

Star Wars is a family friendly multi-generational epic tale of good v/s evil ( I have the films in mind mainly here). They are films everyone could enjoy, it didn't push any particular views rather it enriched the views commonly held by us all.

Actually, no. There were plenty of my friends who were not allowed to watch the movies due to their "violent content", and many religious folk didn't want anything to do with it as it propelled the idea that Earth wasn't the homestead of creation.

Throwing crap into SW that doesn't belong, gore, sex acts, political issue morality lessons, takes away from the enjoyment of storytelling

Arms got chopped off left and right. Padme got pregnant. The entire story is politcal morality... How did that happen?

Don't take that away!

Drama much???

How is having a women being in love with another woman, "taking that away"?

And to all you crass, miserable, reprobates who have to force your stupid pet issue's into everything and force everyone to think exactly as you under the guise of "tolerance" and "equality", I would like to share with you another fond tradition from my childhood. A warm, heartfelt, and hardy THHBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBT!

So basically you are blowing raspberry to the entire Star Wars story team... Good for you!

Lets have books and movies we ALL can enjoy.

How do you propose to do that if you exclude people and their lifestyles that you disagree with?

As has been said by others in this thread, this has nothing to do with sex, which intolerant and ignorant people tend to conflate with homosexuality. This is showing that rather than the normal heterosexual relationship that this character is in a normal homosexual relationship. Which we need more of. So call it marketing if you must but I think it is marketing that is needed.

Some shows I watched this passed week have put me in mind of this topic.

• Agents of Shield was on and Agent May brings in her ex-husband. She is Asian and he is Black (African-American, etc.). There was a time where this never would have happened on tv, but now is a regular thing.
• Showing people in loving normal homosexual relationships is becoming more commonplace, as it should.
• Arrow, another favorite show of mine has the relationship between Nyssa al Ghul and Sarah Lance.
• This week on The Flash Captain Singh, Detective West's boss, is put into the hospital. Only for us to find out that he has has a boyfriend/fiance.

While I am impressed that something like this is making it into a book, I will be more impressed if it makes it into a visual medium like the Rebels show or one of the actual movies.

In TOR you are an active participant you PARTICIPATE in the story, you have to actively pursue the romantic dialogues, you can choose who you love, or not, like in real life.

Emphasis added.

G a y people do not choose whom they love. That's the whole point. Straight people don't get to choose, either. If I could choose, I'd rather be bi. Lots more options in that case. But the mixture of chemicals in my brain that determines my sexuality says I like women, and there's nothing I can do to change that.

I can appreciate how you added "faith" to your list of things you like in Star Wars . The thing is, you're right. Belief plays an important part in Luke's path to becoming a Jedi. The people fighting in the rebellion believe in justice and freedom. The characters all have faith in each other. But, speaking as an atheist, it's important to remember that people have faith in a lot of things. You might believe in God, or the Force, or something else entirely.

Yes, it's good to have a "family-friendly" Star Wars , but there's nothing to suggest a g a y character can't be anything less than wholesome. For all we know, Lando is g a y. But hiding these characters and their stories isn't the right way to go about it. If Han and Leia have a shot at happiness on the silver screen, why not Lando and Larry? Why would their love story be any less heartwarming?

That's what people are upset about. They're not arguing that sexuality has a place in Star Wars , just that it has a place in life which Star Wars seeks to emulate. And I agree that sex doesn't belong in a Star Wars movie, but love sure does.

That's what people are upset about. They're not arguing that sexuality has a place in Star Wars , just that it has a place in life which Star Wars seeks to emulate. And I agree that sex doesn't belong in a Star Wars movie, but love sure does.

Yeah for some reason, no matter how often this point is made it just doesn't seem to register with 'them' at all...

And if you add to that, that none of the people here that have applauded the inclusion of the character have made any demands about it and all the demands have been from people wanting to keep things the same I wonder how any could see the positive non-entitled folks that said nothing else than "Hey, that's nice!" as (and I quote):

crass, miserable, reprobates who have to force your stupid pet issue's into everything and force everyone to think exactly as you under the guise of "tolerance" and "equality"

And to all you crass, miserable, reprobates who have to force your stupid pet issue's into everything and force everyone to think exactly as you under the guise of "tolerance" and "equality", I would like to share with you another fond tradition from my childhood. A warm, heartfelt, and hardy THHBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBT!

Nope, not interested in pandering to this notion at all. Aside from being faulty logic it's actively offensive. Not one tiny bit of time for that nonsense.

A round of applause for mouthymerc and kshatriya up there.

Personally, I think it's a sorry state of affairs that the publisher even feels the need to mention that their book includes a character who's a lesbian - in much the same way I find it regrettable that people are still expected to "come out", as if it should be a big deal. We live in a diverse society and any franchise that hopes to stay relevant has an obligation to represent as wide a cultural demographic as possible. If anyone has a grievance with that, then they're a social dinosaur.

I'm not in opposition, for any reason. If I had one gripe it's making it into news. And that's with any "Other". Have all the couplings you want, have every stormtrooper be black...I don't care. Gender, color, race...it's all good to me. It's that the pandering's gotten so out-of-control it can end up marginalizing the very groups trying to be included. I know a lot of people who feel the same about it and I feel the outcry often isn't that there are things like homosexual Star Wars characters, but that it's made a huge deal. In the end I don't truly care as it doesn't affect me, I just know that constantly being bombarded with, "Include us!" while at the same time having to make a huge deal of the differences, sends a mixed message. Hell, in the University of Arizona, Tucson they were selling "gender-neutral marshmallow snowbeings" with hot chocolate, for fear they'd offend somebody. When the term "snowman" is offensive, it's gotten out of hand. That's not hate, it's not bigotry, it's calling thoughtless PC the stupidity it is. Even my homosexual friends roll their eyes when they see articles making news about something inclusive. Sadly, it's really the too-vocal minority on both sides that squeezes those who just don't care and only want to live our lives.

That mentioned, I see why it's done. I just wish we could get to a place where none of it matters and when people get upset there's a homosexual/bi/black/asian/etc character, the majority ignores the ignorance and they have no choice but to scream at each other.