It would be like trying to discuss history with someone who insists that the Goa'uld were the real driving force behind WWII.

You say that as if they weren't....

Jim

(Like, why would they use X-Wing in Episode VII if they make E-Wings canon).

Same reason they did in the old EU, the E-wing is expensive, high maintenance and about twenty years old. It's to the new X-wing (which, look at it, is a new ship not a Yavin T-65) what the ARC-170 is to the old X-wing.

I still want to be Juno Eclipse when I grow up,

Death by Force Defenestrate. Hell of a way to go.

Ive just realised. Thanks to the videogame "Star Wars Commander", the ships included in that game are canon (It is included in the new "Lucasfilm Story Group").

So.... what does this mean? Nothing really. Just that the new canon will be constantly stained by the old Expanded Universe creating many many many inconsistencies (Like, why would they use X-Wing in Episode VII if they make E-Wings canon).

Also, in this game the Death Troopers appear. So next time you hear that the new canon was a way of getting rid of stupid Expanded Universe stuff just remember that Zombie Stormtroopers are now officially included there.

I don't think they made the whole game canon, they just selectively picked the ships out of it.

There were zombie Clone Troopers in the Clone Wars show; they had brain worms from this one Geonosian queen monster. That said, I think the canon editors are being judicious and not letting just any dumb **** in. (unless it's dumb **** that agrees with their/their bosses personal tastes or political beliefs, which happens)

The basic rule has always been if it's seen on-screen then it's canon, anything else was liable to be thrown under the bus at the whims of Lucas.

True, but they still maintained the EU between all the books to make them very consistent. I'll be weirded out once they start taking existing characters and changing what I grew up thinking about them.

(Like, why would they use X-Wing in Episode VII if they make E-Wings canon).

Same reason they did in the old EU, the E-wing is expensive, high maintenance and about twenty years old. It's to the new X-wing (which, look at it, is a new ship not a Yavin T-65) what the ARC-170 is to the old X-wing.

I still want to be Juno Eclipse when I grow up,

Death by Force Defenestrate. Hell of a way to go.

Only if you go dark side, right?

All novels released starting with "A New Dawn"

Which makes FemTroopers official canon, BTW.

I was wondering recently about how FFG's games fit into the current "canon policy". They certainly seem to be sticking with a certain group of stuff (which I would interpret as the most "mainstream" of EU) in terms of characters and ships, but it occurred to me that some of these things could now be "official" again. I played the old WEG roleplaying game waaaaay back, so I'm happy to see things like the Z-95 and VSD, and I'm sure fans of the various video games feel the same about the Defender or Phantom.

But Mara Jade? That's huge, isn't it? I know she must be pretty high on the popularity scale, but that's acknowledging the Zahn books. Or maybe it's no different than Farlander or Fel?

- H8

What is a FemTrooper?

First off, I was only half serious.

To actually answer your question, though: a Google image search on "FemTrooper" will show a bunch of cosplay women whose style of Stormtrooper costume is decidedly more "Pin-Up" than "canon". Not even going to get into opinions on that. Whatever. It's a thing.

The half-serious, half-joke part comes from the New Dawn book. Absolute mildest of spoilers here, tagged for the purists:

1) There's a part where some Stormtroopers, "one male and three female", walk into a bar. Written that way: explicitly, matter-of-factly. In reality, I assume this is just author embellishment, and my first thought was just, "Huh. Neat. I guess female ST are official now/again."

2) But then I thought, "Wait... How could the characters tell that they're female?" Unless it was, you know, obvious.

So maybe the cosplayers have it right?

- H8

There are no female Stormtroopers. They are all still clones of Jango or other male soldiers.

That "female" trooper was a defective clone with a glandular condition. Or something like what gave Michael Jackson his voice.

(That's my thought and I'm sticking with it!! )

It would be like trying to discuss history with someone who insists that the Goa'uld were the real driving force behind WWII.

You say that as if they weren't....

Jim

Ok, now I'm confused. Didn't I read this exact same argument several months ago? Vanor, are you copy/pasting a pigs you made a while ago?

Didn't I read this exact same argument several months ago?

I used the same example some time ago yes.

I think is time to have the conversation about Continuity vs Cannon.

First let's be clear the word Cannon refers to what texts a religion accepts as scripture, and it is usually used in reference to the Catholics. So until the Pope rule on any of the films or movie, its not going to be cannon.

I accept the Lucas started using this word to refer to a subset of the body of all the Star Wars media that was the "real" Star Wars. But what he really meant was in continuity with the other media. This is a very important distinction because there is no such thing as "real" Star Wars, since it is FICTION.

It is generally considered important for any work of media to be internally consistent. This is called continuity. Continuity can be difficult for any series of fiction. Their are continuity errors between the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings for goodness sakes. The larger a series gets the harder continuity errors are to avoid. Take Klingons in Star Trek, they went from having goatees to having dinosaur bones on their heads. Granted their is a "in word" explanation for the change, but let's be honest everyone knows it is a pretty thin fix and it is never addressed in any of the movies or TV Shows. The closest they ever get is Worf saying he doesn't want to talk about it in an episode where they time travel to another episode.

Lucas' assertion of a cannon was really him trying to pretend he could reduce the number of media and maintain continuity within them. This might have been possible, but let's be honest Lucas didn't achieve it. He didn't achieve continuity between his two trilogies.

To sum up, arguments (or even celebrations about) what is the "Real" Star Wars are absurd to begin with.

What Disney did when they threw away all the EU was just saying that they were not going to hold themselves to continuity with any of it. That is fine. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise stories don't have to have continuity. Just think of all the great (and not so great) Robin stories are out there. No one would ever argue about what the Real Robin Hood was, but that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy the stories. Or temporarily suspend our disbelief and pretend that it is real.

OK, couple of points.

First, "Cannon" means a large artillery piece or aircraft mounted gun.

Second, "Canon" began by meaning specifically religious texts, but its meaning shifted long before Star Wars came along. Now, one of the meanings for the word is "the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic" and also "the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art"

Third,

Take Klingons in Star Trek, they went from having goatees to having dinosaur bones on their heads. Granted their is a "in word" explanation for the change, but let's be honest everyone knows it is a pretty thin fix and it is never addressed in any of the movies or TV Shows. The closest they ever get is Worf saying he doesn't want to talk about it in an episode where they time travel to another episode.

Except for a multi-episode story line about Klingons using Human Augment DNA to try and create a breed of Klingon super soldiers and ending up with a super plague whose cure leaves their physical appearance closer to humans. but I'll agree the assorted attempts to "explain" the change in Klingon appearance are pretty lame, even if that specific TV episode was pretty good.

OK, couple of points.

First, "Cannon" means a large artillery piece or aircraft mounted gun.

Second, "Canon" began by meaning specifically religious texts, but its meaning shifted long before Star Wars came along. Now, one of the meanings for the word is "the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic" and also "the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art"

This. Frankly, LFL (and thus Lucas himself) controlled the intellectual property that is the Star Wars Universe, and as such, he was totally in his rights to determine what was canon, and what was not. Now that Disney owns the IP, they too are within their rights to make changes and to decide what is in or out. People don't have to like it, but it is what it is.

Right, but it still doesn't matter. Licensing permitted all of these other things to be created with the Star Wars branding, the Star Wars logo, and the Star Wars universe. They might have all of the legal force of fan fiction at this point, but that doesn't matter, because they're widely known and shared and accepted by the fans. So, from my standpoint, as far as Star Wars goes, canon is meaningless. In fact, I would go so far as to say, from my point of view, the Rogue Squadron novels and the X-wing video games are MORE canon than the prequels. And I think that 90% of Star Wars fans share this view, at least in their own hearts.

I think is time to have the conversation about Continuity vs Cannon.

First let's be clear the word Cannon refers to what texts a religion accepts as scripture, and it is usually used in reference to the Catholics. So until the Pope rule on any of the films or movie, its not going to be cannon.

I accept the Lucas started using this word to refer to a subset of the body of all the Star Wars media that was the "real" Star Wars. But what he really meant was in continuity with the other media. This is a very important distinction because there is no such thing as "real" Star Wars, since it is FICTION.

It is generally considered important for any work of media to be internally consistent. This is called continuity. Continuity can be difficult for any series of fiction. Their are continuity errors between the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings for goodness sakes. The larger a series gets the harder continuity errors are to avoid. Take Klingons in Star Trek, they went from having goatees to having dinosaur bones on their heads. Granted their is a "in word" explanation for the change, but let's be honest everyone knows it is a pretty thin fix and it is never addressed in any of the movies or TV Shows. The closest they ever get is Worf saying he doesn't want to talk about it in an episode where they time travel to another episode.

Lucas' assertion of a cannon was really him trying to pretend he could reduce the number of media and maintain continuity within them. This might have been possible, but let's be honest Lucas didn't achieve it. He didn't achieve continuity between his two trilogies.

To sum up, arguments (or even celebrations about) what is the "Real" Star Wars are absurd to begin with.

What Disney did when they threw away all the EU was just saying that they were not going to hold themselves to continuity with any of it. That is fine. As much as we would like to pretend otherwise stories don't have to have continuity. Just think of all the great (and not so great) Robin stories are out there. No one would ever argue about what the Real Robin Hood was, but that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy the stories. Or temporarily suspend our disbelief and pretend that it is real.

canon.....not a big gun.

My canon fires ordinance.

I'm curious, for whom is SW canon important beyond RPG players and why?

My canon fires ordinance.

I'm curious, for whom is SW canon important beyond RPG players and why?

I guess maybe fanfic writers? I'd never written a fanfic before, but I did a Star Wars one recently for fun, but I played fast and loose with the canon, as most EU stuff does by playing in the margins.

My canon fires ordinance.

I'm curious, for whom is SW canon important beyond RPG players and why?

Having read every novel. I care greatly about the EU and have come to love a lot of the characters. So the fact that the new movie will ignore it crushes me. I'll watch the new movie but I doubt I'll love it when it changes the timeline that I have grown accustomed to over the last twenty years.

OK, couple of points.

First, "Cannon" means a large artillery piece or aircraft mounted gun.

Some of us post from mobile devices with auto-correct

OK, couple of points.

First, "Cannon" means a large artillery piece or aircraft mounted gun.

Some of us post from mobile devices with auto-correct

Forget mobile devices. You don't want to know how many times my computer has turned starfighter into straighter.

My canon fires ordinance.

I'm curious, for whom is SW canon important beyond RPG players and why?

Having read every novel. I care greatly about the EU and have come to love a lot of the characters. So the fact that the new movie will ignore it crushes me. I'll watch the new movie but I doubt I'll love it when it changes the timeline that I have grown accustomed to over the last twenty years.

Basically this. I'll also watch the new movie and hope I really like it. But, it won't be a continuation of the Star Wars story for me. In my mind that story has already been written/told, I know what happens after Endor. The new movie is going to be fanfic in my mind - really really high quality fanfic, but every time it contradicts something I know about the Star Wars universe I'm going to be knocked out of the movie for a moment (and probably grumble about how the movie is wrong afterwards.)

Their are continuity errors between the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings for goodness sakes.

He didn't achieve continuity between his two trilogies.

Can you give examples of these continuity errors?

Unfortunately the OP is correct. All Disney Star Wars is canon, if you want to get involved with the modern version. They may have to de-canon loads of their own stuff sooner or later, if they want continuity that is.

I saw an interview with George Lucas from the mid 1970s, just after THX. That young guy is not the same man....at all. He was all about feeling, and creativity, and hating the monolithic corporates, the the money man having the final say as to what gets on the screen.

All novels released starting with "A New Dawn"

Which makes FemTroopers official canon, BTW.

I was wondering recently about how FFG's games fit into the current "canon policy". They certainly seem to be sticking with a certain group of stuff (which I would interpret as the most "mainstream" of EU) in terms of characters and ships, but it occurred to me that some of these things could now be "official" again. I played the old WEG roleplaying game waaaaay back, so I'm happy to see things like the Z-95 and VSD, and I'm sure fans of the various video games feel the same about the Defender or Phantom.

But Mara Jade? That's huge, isn't it? I know she must be pretty high on the popularity scale, but that's acknowledging the Zahn books. Or maybe it's no different than Farlander or Fel?

- H8

What is a FemTrooper?

First off, I was only half serious.

To actually answer your question, though: a Google image search on "FemTrooper" will show a bunch of cosplay women whose style of Stormtrooper costume is decidedly more "Pin-Up" than "canon". Not even going to get into opinions on that. Whatever. It's a thing.

The half-serious, half-joke part comes from the New Dawn book. Absolute mildest of spoilers here, tagged for the purists:

1) There's a part where some Stormtroopers, "one male and three female", walk into a bar. Written that way: explicitly, matter-of-factly. In reality, I assume this is just author embellishment, and my first thought was just, "Huh. Neat. I guess female ST are official now/again."

2) But then I thought, "Wait... How could the characters tell that they're female?" Unless it was, you know, obvious.

So maybe the cosplayers have it right?

- H8

There are no female Stormtroopers. They are all still clones of Jango or other male soldiers.

That "female" trooper was a defective clone with a glandular condition. Or something like what gave Michael Jackson his voice.

(That's my thought and I'm sticking with it!! )

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/543184587757600769

This, to me, is more canon than a simple time waster of a little game. .

Unfortunately the OP is correct. All Disney Star Wars is canon, if you want to get involved with the modern version. They may have to de-canon loads of their own stuff sooner or later, if they want continuity that is.

I saw an interview with George Lucas from the mid 1970s, just after THX. That young guy is not the same man....at all. He was all about feeling, and creativity, and hating the monolithic corporates, the the money man having the final say as to what gets on the screen.

Money does change people. Especially billions.

My canon fires ordinance.

I'm curious, for whom is SW canon important beyond RPG players and why?

Having read every novel. I care greatly about the EU and have come to love a lot of the characters. So the fact that the new movie will ignore it crushes me. I'll watch the new movie but I doubt I'll love it when it changes the timeline that I have grown accustomed to over the last twenty years.

At least Chewie is alive now.

While we're on the subject, "canon" is not an adjective. It is a noun. Something can feature in the canon, but which "canon" you're referring to is up to you. Are you referring to George Lucas' canon (6 films, related to Star Wars), Lucas Film's canon (the most debatable case - does this include everything approved by LF, or just that made by them directly?) or Disney's canon (one TV series, presently)?

The "Star Wars canon" is anything that's genuine Star Wars. Genuine, to my mind, is not something that can be revoked - it's either always genuine or it was never genuine.

What we're really talking about is what's accepted by Disney. The word therefore is not "canon" but "official". Obviously this makes no practical difference, it's just semantics, but if we're going to repeat the same old discussion over and over we've got room for some semantics.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/canon

Their are continuity errors between the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings for goodness sakes.

He didn't achieve continuity between his two trilogies.

Can you give examples of these continuity errors?

Obi-Wan saying that Yoda taught him when the prequels have him as Qui-Gonn's padawan. That's only one but you'd still think he'd have caught that.