I just wanted to reinforce that this guy was not trying to target lock people at range 4 or even 5. We're talking like range 6 7 and 8. It very obvious that there was no way the target would be in range. And he would leave the ruler down for quite a while assessing other ships.

I understand that you glean information from every target lock, and I'm definitely okay with target locks where the range is pretty close but just not quite there. It just seemed like this guy was blatantly abusing the 'fly casual' mindset to see how much he could get an advantage.

what tournament were you at?

The problem is, policing this "loophole" is difficult.

What if the opponent legimately thinks that TL is in Range or is close to being in range? Their eye for range might not be as good as yours, and all of a sudden you are being overly critical of a situation that might be an honest players mistake/lack of measuring skill.

Also, I for one don't think it is a "loophole", because that word implies a negative affect. It is more just, "an affect within the rules that some people disagree with." A lot of people DO think it is okay. Those who disagree with it just get to use words that make it sound more back-handy than it really is.

As long as the player is measuring only to that ship, and only to see if the TL is legal (which does NOT include measuring for which Range band you are in, and does NOT include lining up your front arc. Meaning, you can only measure closest point of your ship to closest point of the opposing ship), then I see no problem with gaining additional information about the ships around you, albeit, you don't always gain a whole lot if you are following the rules for TL range checking pretty well. it's really when the rules are bent that a problem occurs.

I agree, no biggie, especially in the local scene (Friendly, yet competitive games I assume). Maybe stricter enforcement at regionals/nationals/worlds. Besides as someone said, you can collect the info too so I dont really see any advantage.

And this is why the rules should just let people measure ranges.

Any idea what the thinking is with not allowing measuring in the first place?

Goes down to earlier table top games that had rules and mechanics where you had to guess the range in order to use certain weapons. There is a certain elitist misconception the it takes more skill and banning premeasuring allows better players to win more games instead of being at the mercy of the dice.

IMHO the way the flight path system is set up that is sort of belief is nonsense. With cannons becoming more prevalent and how maneuvers are selected by dials moving the ships has more effect than measuring ranges. It is impossible to premeasure a move. So the gripes about premeasuring in X-wing is just something that people need to understand that it is a part of this game and NOT the games that they were used to be playing before they moved over to this one.

I just wanted to reinforce that this guy was not trying to target lock people at range 4 or even 5. We're talking like range 6 7 and 8. It was very obvious that there was no way the target would be in range. And he would leave the ruler down for quite a while assessing other ships.

I understand that you glean information from every target lock, and I'm definitely okay with target locks where the range is pretty close but just not quite there. It just seemed like this guy was blatantly abusing the 'fly casual' mindset to see how much he could get an advantage.

The bolded part is where, I believe, he would be crossing over from exploiting a loophole to outright cheating. Yes, the rules as written allow him to declare a target lock to anyone he likes, and he is free to measure that. But if he is keeping the ruler there longer than necessary, then he is clearly not just checking for the target lock and he is now outright breaking the rules.

As a TO, I would allow him to declare the TL as he wished, but inform him that there is no reason for him to keep the ruler in play any longer than is absolutely necessary to check that lock, which would be no more than a second at most. If he kept it in play longer than that I would warn him for cheating, then DQ him if he persisted.

And this is why the rules should just let people measure ranges.

Any idea what the thinking is with not allowing measuring in the first place?

Goes down to earlier table top games that had rules and mechanics where you had to guess the range in order to use certain weapons. There is a certain elitist misconception the it takes more skill and banning premeasuring allows better players to win more games instead of being at the mercy of the dice.

IMHO the way the flight path system is set up that is sort of belief is nonsense. With cannons becoming more prevalent and how maneuvers are selected by dials moving the ships has more effect than measuring ranges. It is impossible to premeasure a move. So the gripes about premeasuring in X-wing is just something that people need to understand that it is a part of this game and NOT the games that they were used to be playing before they moved over to this one.

There are a few good reasons not to allow pre-measurements. First, it would slow the game down considerably during competitive play, as some players would no doubt check every possible template and range. This would confer a considerable disadvantage to some lists and players; the measurements just take less time with fewer ships.

It would also reduce the skill ceiling of the game, which would not necessarily be a bad thing, but probably is not a net-positive. For example:

Think about how a pre-measured match here would change the dynamic of what you see. Would Heaver's clutch maneuver through the asteroids have been nearly as impressive? Would that gambit have even taken place if both he and his opponent had perfect information about what ships could fly where?

the game would probably not lose it's entertainment value, but it would be a much different - and much slower - experience.

I played against a guy that would use the TL and measure on "obvious" out of range ships, while getting distances to asteroids in the process! I didnt worry too much about it as it was in casual play.

I am good at eyeballing distances and often receive compliments on my flying abilities because of it! However, that is with small bases! I need to practice more with large bases! Just last weekend I landed Kath on TWO asteroids in one game! Not good!

Last tournament I was at, my opponent would pick one of his ships, wave the range ruler semi-randomly around "looking for something to TL" (like the asteroids you're close to?) even though, at best, it was about range 5 or more for everything on the table.

As long as the ruler is pointing in the direction of the intended ship this is a perfectly legal tactic. There is nothing wrong with it. Move along.

The argument here, as well as innumerable other similar topics, is whether or not "legal" and "acceptable" are the same thing.

There are some people who say that anything legal is fair play, and nothing else should be required of someone's behavior. Others would argue that rules are the bare minimum, and not the ultimate end, of acceptable behavior.

I know of no modern, western society in which politeness is outright required, and rudeness is explicitly illegal. However, there aren't a lot of societies that think acting rude is acceptable - I mean, that more or less goes to the very definition of rude, doesn't it?

So I'd say, maybe it's not illegal, but it certainly seems rude. Given that the tournament rules say, "Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner," I'd also say being sufficiently rude is illegal. I'm sure you have a personal opinion on where to draw the line at "sufficiently" rude, as does everyone else. But it shouldn't surprise anyone that these opinions differ, and if I were giving advice on how to act acceptably, I would say one should err on the side of courtesy.

- H8

I made a post awhile back about a certain player on vassal (i'll omit his name) who did this to me in a game, and then to several others players as well. It pissed me off, and pissed off at least one other player I know. When called out on it his excuse was until FFG makes a rule against it, he'll keep doing it.

I don't like the losing an action solution, but I do think it could maybe work that if you declare a target lock and it's out of range, you must keep declaring a target lock until you get one. If no one is in target lock range then you can do a different action.

I just wanted to reinforce that this guy was not trying to target lock people at range 4 or even 5. We're talking like range 6 7 and 8. It was very obvious that there was no way the target would be in range. And he would leave the ruler down for quite a while assessing other ships.

I understand that you glean information from every target lock, and I'm definitely okay with target locks where the range is pretty close but just not quite there. It just seemed like this guy was blatantly abusing the 'fly casual' mindset to see how much he could get an advantage.

To play the devils advocate here: It has nothing to do with fly casual and there is no abuse of rules here if he had the range ruler pointed directly in the direction of the ship,... This is simply using the rules to your advantage which is what I would expect of any opponent, especially in a tournament. If I were to see someone do this against me I would make sure they kept the ruler pointed only at the ship they declared but other than that I would be fine with it... hell i would also look carefully to see the ranges that i could... if he is going to glean info to use then by simple logic I can as well.

This isnt even bending the rule this is using a rule as written. While one can argue this is against the spirit of the rule we still have to play by rules as written and I honestly hold no ire for anyone who is trying to use every trick and loophole allowed by the rules. In fact as long as no rules are broken I actually enjoy games against these kind of cut throat people even more than casual players simply because this kind of thing shows a cunning and a deep desire to win and that means I have someone who is truly putting their all into this game. I feel far more satisfaction from defeating truly cunning and ruthless opponents in tournaments. If you prefer to play against more laid back people who dont use every advantage they can gain that is fine but I think it is pointless to get upset at someone who is simply playing within the rules given.

Thats just my two cents and im sure this will be a highly unpopular opinion but I wanted to get it out there.

As long as the ruler is pointing in the direction of the intended ship this is a perfectly legal tactic. There is nothing wrong with it. Move along.

The argument here, as well as innumerable other similar topics, is whether or not "legal" and "acceptable" are the same thing.

There are some people who say that anything legal is fair play, and nothing else should be required of someone's behavior. Others would argue that rules are the bare minimum, and not the ultimate end, of acceptable behavior.

I know of no modern, western society in which politeness is outright required, and rudeness is explicitly illegal. However, there aren't a lot of societies that think acting rude is acceptable - I mean, that more or less goes to the very definition of rude, doesn't it?

So I'd say, maybe it's not illegal, but it certainly seems rude. Given that the tournament rules say, "Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner," I'd also say being sufficiently rude is illegal. I'm sure you have a personal opinion on where to draw the line at "sufficiently" rude, as does everyone else. But it shouldn't surprise anyone that these opinions differ, and if I were giving advice on how to act acceptably, I would say one should err on the side of courtesy.

- H8

Sorry for the double post dont know how to edit a quote in...

as for your take H8... I would disagree... I dont see it as rude and your example really isnt a good comparison... a tournament isnt a society... its more akin to a gladiator arena... and in a gladiator arena you would expect someone to do anything the rules permitted to win would you not? this is a competition not a polite dinner conversation. I want to be clear i am not saying players should act uncivilized or rude but rather playing anyway permitted by the rules shouldnt be considered rude... their demeanor when doing it is what should dictated whether you call them rude or an ass. As i said I love to play people who are friendly to the player and ruthless to the game... My ideal opponent is one who can laugh and talk and have a good time with me while at the same time using any and every trick allowed by the rules in order to try and crush me...

I have never used this trick (im fairly good at estimating distance so I dont think I ever would) but I dont see any reason not to or to stop anyone else from doing so...

and people here seem to forget that he may get info but you do as well... you can use that to your advantage in most cases as well. (although I will grant you there are circumstances where he would benefit but you would not)

So I'd say, maybe it's not illegal, but it certainly seems rude. Given that the tournament rules say, "Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner," I'd also say being sufficiently rude is illegal.

There's a difference between wanting people to be polite and being anal

Bad sportsmanship cuts both ways. One is the guy who tries to over-reach the scope of the rules in a way he hopes no one will notice (all brushing target-lock all over the place), the other is the guy who tries to prevent others from playing within if they're 100% supported the rules of the game (checking range towards a declared target-lock target)

Player 1 " I'd like to target lock that ship way over there, the one past your other ship"

Player 2 " come on man! That is clearly out of range and your just abusing the rules"

Player 1 " I'm not that sure it's out of range but would like to check"

Player 2 " your being rediculice trying to Target Lock something so far away"

Player 1 " ok, prove it's it's out of range"

Player 2 uses his ruler to show the distance is way out of range

Player 1 " Thank You" smiling " I'll just Barrle Roll"

You can not stop a player from doing what the rules allow. When you declare a Target Lock action you must measure to see if it's a legal TL. If the person measures to a diffrent ship that is all together another issue and has nothing to do with declaring a TL.

So I'm honestly curious why people think that this tactic doesn't violate the "measure to that ship and only that ship" rule. Do you think it's not measuring range because the ruler isn't pointed directly at it? Do you think that by following the steps exactly, that makes it impossible for you to measure range to another ship?

I don't believe either of those things are the case. Clearly, the entire purpose of this "tactic" is to measure range to a ship other than the one you're declaring a target lock on. Precisely following the steps as described for a process should not mean anything you do with those steps which might violate other rules is guaranteed to be legal. Can you intentionally knock one of your ships over, causing it to reposition, just because it's in the way of the ruler? A dial is slightly larger than a one ahead, if I'm worried about hitting that obstacle, could I set my dial in base contact with the ship to measure it?

It really comes down to the question of what constitutes a measurement. One side wants to pretend that the absolute and only way to take a measurement is to use the range ruler to mark directly from one ship to another. Honestly, I think that's both ludicrous and dishonest. When you finish a process, do you have knowledge about range which you did not have at the beginning of that process? Then you've taken a measurement , and I don't think it matters where you happen to be pointing the range ruler at the time.

And that, per the rules, is illegal.

Still waiting for a rule citation.

Why? It's not against the rules, except he wastes a lot of time on it, then it's slow play.

I also see no problem with it. He is allowed to do it, so are you. Yes, it might be useless to measure two ships that are base to base, or that are a meter apart, but anyone is still allowed to measure it. And even if anyone does so clearly to measure firing range or for other reasons, i won't mind since i can also do it myself if i like.

I just wanted to reinforce that this guy was not trying to target lock people at range 4 or even 5. We're talking like range 6 7 and 8. It was very obvious that there was no way the target would be in range. And he would leave the ruler down for quite a while assessing other ships.

I understand that you glean information from every target lock, and I'm definitely okay with target locks where the range is pretty close but just not quite there. It just seemed like this guy was blatantly abusing the 'fly casual' mindset to see how much he could get an advantage.

To play the devils advocate here: It has nothing to do with fly casual and there is no abuse of rules here if he had the range ruler pointed directly in the direction of the ship,... This is simply using the rules to your advantage which is what I would expect of any opponent, especially in a tournament. If I were to see someone do this against me I would make sure they kept the ruler pointed only at the ship they declared but other than that I would be fine with it... hell i would also look carefully to see the ranges that i could... if he is going to glean info to use then by simple logic I can as well.

This isnt even bending the rule this is using a rule as written. While one can argue this is against the spirit of the rule we still have to play by rules as written and I honestly hold no ire for anyone who is trying to use every trick and loophole allowed by the rules. In fact as long as no rules are broken I actually enjoy games against these kind of cut throat people even more than casual players simply because this kind of thing shows a cunning and a deep desire to win and that means I have someone who is truly putting their all into this game. I feel far more satisfaction from defeating truly cunning and ruthless opponents in tournaments. If you prefer to play against more laid back people who dont use every advantage they can gain that is fine but I think it is pointless to get upset at someone who is simply playing within the rules given.

Thats just my two cents and im sure this will be a highly unpopular opinion but I wanted to get it out there.

That's not an unpopular opinion to me at least. I absolutely agree with this.

In competitive play i will, like you say, expect this of my opponent and i willdo it myself. I will not however wildly measure any range in the processbut just point it at a ship i want to TL, nor will i waste a lot of time on it. If i get info on any shipor asteroid inthe same direction however, and i will not apologize for it! My opponent can and should do the same!

I also believe that if you come across players that have a problem with this, it's mostly former Warhammer players. I remember the artillery rules in 40k pretty well where you pointed in a direction and had to guess the distance. But these are two different games, and in X-Wing measuring is a lot more commonplace. These people just need to understand that.

I think the guessing part in X-Wing is and should stay picking the right maneuver. But if you pay attention during the shooting phase of the previous turn you will also have a lot of information concerning distances, and nobody bats an eye. But when someone tries a TL to boost or barrel roll afterwards that's a problem? Well i don't know that seems illogical to me!

Still waiting for a rule citation.

Why? It's not against the rules, except he wastes a lot of time on it, then it's slow play.

I also see no problem with it. He is allowed to do it, so are you. Yes, it might be useless to measure two ships that are base to base, or that are a meter apart, but anyone is still allowed to measure it. And even if anyone does so clearly to measure firing range or for other reasons, i won't mind since i can also do it myself if i like.

Except that it is against the rules.

FAQ, page 9, Measuring Range:

• After declaring the intended target of a target lock action, the active player may measure range to the intended target, and only to the intended target.

Tournament Rules, Page 1 , Unsportsmanlike Conduct:

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentional stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, abusing an infinite combo, inappropriate behaviour, treating a player with a lack of courtesy of respect, etc. ...

(emphasis in both cases is mine)

In other words, the intention of measuring is to gain information ONLY to the intended target, and to use (abuse) rules beyond their intention is unsportsmanlike conduct, which is banned.

Still waiting for a rule citation.

Why? It's not against the rules, except he wastes a lot of time on it, then it's slow play.

I also see no problem with it. He is allowed to do it, so are you. Yes, it might be useless to measure two ships that are base to base, or that are a meter apart, but anyone is still allowed to measure it. And even if anyone does so clearly to measure firing range or for other reasons, i won't mind since i can also do it myself if i like.

Except that it is against the rules.

FAQ, page 9, Measuring Range:

• After declaring the intended target of a target lock action, the active player may measure range to the intended target, and only to the intended target.

Tournament Rules, Page 1 , Unsportsmanlike Conduct:

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentional stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, abusing an infinite combo, inappropriate behaviour, treating a player with a lack of courtesy of respect, etc. ...

(emphasis in both cases is mine)

In other words, the intention of measuring is to gain information ONLY to the intended target, and to use (abuse) rules beyond their intention is unsportsmanlike conduct, which is banned.

Well you only lay down your template pointing to the intended target. And if you can't reach it to a new target. Only restriction is that if you do reach a target you have to take the TL

To the second enphasis:

Well if i lay down my template pointing toward an intended target it's kinda hard to not look at the other ships or asteroids around. It would also be outright be dumb not to do it. And honestly, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to prove that? I might have a very bad distance judgement, or bad eyesight! What seems obviously in or out of range to you, could not be that clear to me... This is all a question of perception in fact.

And i have yet to see a TO that actually would even dare to say anything about this, not even speaking of banning anyone for it.

Because accusing someone of something you can't prove is also very bad sportsmanship in the end.

I am playing devils advocate here of some sort. Not saying i have never gleaned information by measuring a TL because, as i said, it would be dumb to not use this tactic, but i will not measure for a TL that is a meter away! I am just telling you that people can do this and will do it, and whether you find it bad sportsmanship or not will not matter as long as this does not get reruled into losing your action if you can't get the TL. I would also not mind if they did, it would become a bit more challenging and i like that.

Still waiting for a rule citation.

Why? It's not against the rules, except he wastes a lot of time on it, then it's slow play.

I also see no problem with it. He is allowed to do it, so are you. Yes, it might be useless to measure two ships that are base to base, or that are a meter apart, but anyone is still allowed to measure it. And even if anyone does so clearly to measure firing range or for other reasons, i won't mind since i can also do it myself if i like.

Except that it is against the rules. FAQ, page 9, Measuring Range: • After declaring the intended target of a target lock action, the active player may measure range to the intended target, and only to the intended target. Tournament Rules, Page 1 , Unsportsmanlike Conduct:

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentional stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, abusing an infinite combo, inappropriate behaviour, treating a player with a lack of courtesy of respect, etc. ...

(emphasis in both cases is mine)

In other words, the intention of measuring is to gain information ONLY to the intended target, and to use (abuse) rules beyond their intention is unsportsmanlike conduct, which is banned.

To the first emphasis:

Well you only lay down your template pointing to the intended target. And if you can't reach it to a new target. Only restriction is that if you do reach a target you have to take the TL

To the second enphasis:

Well if i lay down my template pointing toward an intended target it's kinda hard to not look at the other ships or asteroids around. It would also be outright be dumb not to do it. And honestly, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to prove that? I might have a very bad distance judgement, or bad eyesight! What seems obviously in or out of range to you, could not be that clear to me... This is all a question of perception in fact.

And i have yet to see a TO that actually would even dare to say anything about this, not even speaking of banning anyone for it.

Because accusing someone of something you can't prove is also very bad sportsmanship in the end.

I am playing devils advocate here of some sort. Not saying i have never gleaned information by measuring a TL because, as i said, it would be dumb to not use this tactic, but i will not measure for a TL that is a meter away! I am just telling you that people can do this and will do it, and whether you find it bad sportsmanship or not will not matter as long as this does not get reruled into losing your action if you can't get the TL. I would also not mind if they did, it would become a bit more challenging and i like that.

I have, and would again, officially warned a player that they would be disqualified from the current match and lose 100-0 if he did it again. The guy chipped in with the old "i thought it might be in range" because he knew full well that to measure otherwise was cheating, so to humour him we measured fhd full distance and it came back as just inside range 8 (took 3 rulers to do).

I have, and would again, officially warned a player that they would be disqualified from the current match and lose 100-0 if he did it again. The guy chipped in with the old "i thought it might be in range" because he knew full well that to measure otherwise was cheating, so to humour him we measured fhd full distance and it came back as just inside range 8 (took 3 rulers to do).

I fail to see the point of this whole thread, or why it's an ungodly sin to measure range when you TL. While the guy lied about the "thought it might be in range", I would just tell you that it's allowed to check range during TL.

Is it the same with you people in the Combat phase? If the ships are clearly out of range, you consider it cheating to put down the range ruler?

I have, and would again, officially warned a player that they would be disqualified from the current match and lose 100-0 if he did it again. The guy chipped in with the old "i thought it might be in range" because he knew full well that to measure otherwise was cheating, so to humour him we measured fhd full distance and it came back as just inside range 8 (took 3 rulers to do).

I fail to see the point of this whole thread, or why it's an ungodly sin to measure range when you TL. While the guy lied about the "thought it might be in range", I would just tell you that it's allowed to check range during TL.

Is it the same with you people in the Combat phase? If the ships are clearly out of range, you consider it cheating to put down the range ruler?

yes it is 'within the rules' but measuring something that is so clearly out of range that it takes 3 range rulers to measure when we do try it is clearly breaching the intent of the rule in order to gain access to information you arent supposed to have. FFG have included the unsporsmanlike section of the rules hopefully so they don't have to take measures such as saying if you measure and can't then that was your action for the cases when it is mm out.

I still think that it's far fetched to accuse someone of bad sportsmanship when someone is playing according to the rules of the game. Because whether this is abusing or not is very arguable.

I bet you are a Warhammer Veteran? They usually see this as a bad thing. But X-Wing is actually very liberal about measuring considering its ruleset. It's a different game really!

I still think that it's far fetched to accuse someone of bad sportsmanship when someone is playing according to the rules of the game. Because whether this is abusing or not is very arguable.

Rule books cannot encompass every single possible scenario. This is why terms like 'etc' are included under poor sportsmanship, and why judges or organizers are given the final say when it comes to ruling in favor of or against player behavior.

The rules implicitly prohibit pre-measurement while attempting to accommodate errors in eyeballing distances rather than punishing those errors with lost action economy. It seems like rules lawyering to me to say, "Well, ignore the whole context of these rules as presented; it says I can measure for a target lock and does not impose a penalty if I check for one from across the table, so clearly this fits within the scope of the game's mechanics,"

That said, I'm happy enough when someone does something like this. It just means I know who to avoid playing with (in my experience, someone who does that sort of thing will do all sorts of other things to 'gain an edge' in whatever game they're involved in that tends to transform the experience from play to debate over rules edge cases).

@ForceM i actually agree with you. And still waiting for a rule citation that disallows anybody from doing it. Noone can guarantee that a ship is out of range without measuring it, even from corner to corner you measure it estimately with your eyes.

And since people have to quote 2 rules which one of them is simply a matter of taking a target lock and how to do it, and this all topic is about taking a measurement to the ships betweeen your ship and the intended target which is some how measured to be out of range by some people without measuring.

And the second one is simple a sportsmanship clause which assumes the action we are discussing is unsportsmanship in the first place.

And also if a TO tries to tell me i cant do this in a tournament i am not letting him go until he shows me i cant. I have a rule of measuring to any ship on the board which is the target lock action and he has none to support his claim.