Wow. It's like you're a chat-bot designed to mimic the world's worst TO.

I guess you can't actually understand what I'm saying... So I understand why you can't provide a answer.

You wouldn't want to see a rule change that results in losing the action, because that wouldn't be "casual", so you'd rather kick people out of the game?

FFG doesn't believe in having people lose an action because they missjudged the distance. This is quite clear based on the rules.

Anytime you try to do something but aren't able to, like boost, barrel roll, decloak but can't fit, or try to TL or attack but the target is out of range, you never lose out on your action.

X-Wing does not have 'gotcha' types rules, and I hope never will.

But if someone is abusing the rules then yes the TO should in fact issue warnings first, and then if necessary DQ the person if they continue to behave badly.

You wouldn't want to see a rule change that results in losing the action, because that wouldn't be "casual", so you'd rather kick people out of the game?

FFG doesn't believe in having people lose an action because they missjudged the distance. This is quite clear based on the rules.Anytime you try to do something but aren't able to, like boost, barrel roll, decloak but can't fit, or try to TL or attack but the target is out of range, you never lose out on your action.X-Wing does not have 'gotcha' types rules, and I hope never will.But if someone is abusing the rules then yes the TO should in fact issue warnings first, and then if necessary DQ the person if they continue to behave badly.

I just think the position so many people are taking on target lock is bizarre. "We must combat the plague of people following the written target lock rule by any means neccessary!"

I just think the position so many people are taking on target lock is bizarre. "We must combat the plague of people following the written target lock rule by any means neccessary!"

This is what confuses me. As long as people are following the rule as written, there's no problem. If people are slowing play by claiming they're checking for a target lock on Ship #N while actually carefully measuring range and firing arcs on other ships, that's a problem--but it's a problem with slow play, not a problem with the target lock rule.

The rule itself is very clear. This entire conversation is about how far it's fair to stretch the intent of the rule, but that (a) involves some (bad) assumptions about that intent, and (b) is pretty irrelevant when the letter of the rule is clear and unambiguous.

X-wing does have " gotcha" rules;

Perhaps, but IMO that's not quite the same thing. To me the gotcha rules are what you had in 40k where if you declare an attack on something and find out our 1/16th of an inch too far away you lose attack for that round.

X-wing does have " gotcha" rules;

Perhaps, but IMO that's not quite the same thing. To me the gotcha rules are what you had in 40k where if you declare an attack on something and find out our 1/16th of an inch too far away you lose attack for that round.

Wow. It's like you're a chat-bot designed to mimic the world's worst TO.

I guess you can't actually understand what I'm saying... So I understand why you can't provide a answer.

"Good luck getting me to enforce the rules I don't like, chumps!" Remember when you were being a giant baby and we're going to ban people who arted up their dials?

"Good luck getting me to enforce the rules I don't like, chumps!"

Exactly which rules am I not enforcing? The one that says you can measure a TL no matter what other ships are in the way, which is what Alex said you can do?

I'm the one playing RAW here, and have Alex's word to back that up. But you don't have to actually answer that question, not that I think you can... I won't see your answer either way. Based on the posts you've made here so far, it will not be a loss on my part either.

Remember when you were being a giant baby and we're going to ban people who arted up their dials?

I never actually said that I'd ban anyone, I said that anyone who painted their dials took the risk of being asked to produce unmarked ones or else not being able to play... But with that personal attack you thrown in I'll get to add the report I'm going to send off to the moderators as an extra benefit to proving you wrong once again.

I see your reading skills are also at the level of a toddler. Are you also not allowed to operate the stove or handle sharp objects?

nevermind... I'll just let the mod's deal with it.

I had something similar come up at a tournament last weekend.

Opponent wanted to measure to see if he was in range of one of my ships. He was out which was quite obvious so he says "Oh I will just barrel roll and then shoot him". I stopped him and stated that as he had already pre measured then he would do no such thing but having read what people are saying in this thread then I should have allowed him to do so.

I have to be honest if that is the way Xwing is going then I wont be indulging it.

As far as im concerned it should be if you declare it and you are out of range you lose your action and cannot shoot anything else.

Might seem tough but it stops the pre measuring and abusing and that to me is where the Skill Factor comes in to play.

Any moron can play half decent if they have there "Range Aid" templates and are allowed to measure distances.

Hell, take those away and make it that you have to declare your target after you perform your movement and lets see how good you all really are.

Lets not dumb this game down like happened to WFB and such.

I had something similar come up at a tournament last weekend.

Opponent wanted to measure to see if he was in range of one of my ships. He was out which was quite obvious so he says "Oh I will just barrel roll and then shoot him". I stopped him and stated that as he had already pre measured then he would do no such thing but having read what people are saying in this thread then I should have allowed him to do so.

I have to be honest if that is the way Xwing is going then I wont be indulging it.

As far as im concerned it should be if you declare it and you are out of range you lose your action and cannot shoot anything else.

Might seem tough but it stops the pre measuring and abusing and that to me is where the Skill Factor comes in to play.

Any moron can play half decent if they have there "Range Aid" templates and are allowed to measure distances.

Hell, take those away and make it that you have to declare your target after you perform your movement and lets see how good you all really are.

Lets not dumb this game down like happened to WFB and such.

This is wrong on some levels, action phase and combat phase are different . If he tried to targrt lock and was out of range thats sth else. And also i am glad this game is not played like how you think it should be played.

I had something similar come up at a tournament last weekend.

Opponent wanted to measure to see if he was in range of one of my ships. He was out which was quite obvious so he says "Oh I will just barrel roll and then shoot him". I stopped him and stated that as he had already pre measured then he would do no such thing but having read what people are saying in this thread then I should have allowed him to do so.

I have to be honest if that is the way Xwing is going then I wont be indulging it.

As far as im concerned it should be if you declare it and you are out of range you lose your action and cannot shoot anything else.

Might seem tough but it stops the pre measuring and abusing and that to me is where the Skill Factor comes in to play.

Any moron can play half decent if they have there "Range Aid" templates and are allowed to measure distances.

Hell, take those away and make it that you have to declare your target after you perform your movement and lets see how good you all really are.

Lets not dumb this game down like happened to WFB and such.

If the difference between out of range and range 3 is a barrel roll (1.5cm or 3cm with a large ship) then you would have a very hard time arguing that this was "obviously" out of range.

I had something similar come up at a tournament last weekend.

Opponent wanted to measure to see if he was in range of one of my ships. He was out which was quite obvious so he says "Oh I will just barrel roll and then shoot him". I stopped him and stated that as he had already pre measured then he would do no such thing but having read what people are saying in this thread then I should have allowed him to do so.

I have to be honest if that is the way Xwing is going then I wont be indulging it.

As far as im concerned it should be if you declare it and you are out of range you lose your action and cannot shoot anything else.

Might seem tough but it stops the pre measuring and abusing and that to me is where the Skill Factor comes in to play.

Any moron can play half decent if they have there "Range Aid" templates and are allowed to measure distances.

Hell, take those away and make it that you have to declare your target after you perform your movement and lets see how good you all really are.

Lets not dumb this game down like happened to WFB and such.

Except the game is Xwing not Attack Wing... seems you should be playing that one if measuring bothers you so much. Outside a boosting/barrell rolling donut dash, how much of an handicap does it really give you? I personally could care less unless the target was 2 feet away.

There's so much to unpack here:

When are your options shoot or barrel roll?

What do you mean by the way it's going? These are the rules, we were always here.

Are you aware that shooting isn't an action and done in a different phase of the game?

Yeah Asmodi either you can't articulate the situation you are trying to describe or you just don't know the rules being discussed in this thread.

If your opponent was measuring for an attack he is well past the opportunity to barrel roll. That is not at all what this thread is about. That sequence of events is not at all possible under the rules.

If he was trying to Target Lock your ship then he is free to measure, and if in range get the TL (under the competitive rules). If out of range he goes back to picking a legal action.

X-wing does have " gotcha" rules;

Perhaps, but IMO that's not quite the same thing. To me the gotcha rules are what you had in 40k where if you declare an attack on something and find out our 1/16th of an inch too far away you lose attack for that round.

When the community was first arguing over how freely you could measure in X-wing, a lot of people thought free measurement was in the "spirit" of the game. I never really understood that, honestly. The entire core concept of the flight path system can cost you actions, damage, entire ship destruction, and yes, even your attack if you misjudge a maneuver by 1/16th of an inch. What always seemed odd to me, and still does, is the idea that the one of the most unforgiving movement systems I've ever played is paired with one of the most forgiving action/combat systems.

X-wing does have " gotcha" rules;

Perhaps, but IMO that's not quite the same thing. To me the gotcha rules are what you had in 40k where if you declare an attack on something and find out our 1/16th of an inch too far away you lose attack for that round.

I think X-wing actually has quite a lot of these. The entire maneuver system is one big pile of gotcha. Boosting or barrel rolling can force you off the map. I barrel rolled a Scyk into my own Proton Bomb detonation the other night, blew up my own ship because I misjudged that when I called the direction.

When the community was first arguing over how freely you could measure in X-wing, a lot of people thought free measurement was in the "spirit" of the game. I never really understood that, honestly. The entire core concept of the flight path system can cost you actions, damage, entire ship destruction, and yes, even your attack if you misjudge a maneuver by 1/16th of an inch. What always seemed odd to me, and still does, is the idea that the one of the most unforgiving movement systems I've ever played is paired with one of the most forgiving action/combat systems.

You get punished for maneuvering poorly in a game where maneuvers are paramount, not target priority. One is a matter of skill, the other strategy. Seems fairly straightforward to me.

Lets not dumb this game down like happened to WFB and such.

Ahh you're one of those. That helps me know how much weight to give what you say.

If your opponent was measuring for an attack he is well past the opportunity to barrel roll.

Yeah, clearly what happened was either quite different than was stated, or completely against how the rules work.

You get punished for maneuvering poorly in a game where maneuvers are paramount, not target priority. One is a matter of skill, the other strategy.

Yeah to me it's completely different. In X-Wing you may suffer from picking a bad maneuver, but that's still not the same thing to me.

On the one hand you have a situation where 'He chose poorly' and suffers for it. The other is "ha! you are 1/64th of an inch too far away, so your whole army just lost the ability to shoot at anything'

In X-Wing picking a maneuver and having it be a bad decision is one thing, it's not like you lose your ability to do anything because you were 1/64th of inch farther way than you thought you were.

This weekend I had a guy place a **** bomb down and realized it wasn't going to get my ship, then he quickly pulled it back up. I didn't say anything as the game was pretty much lost for me at that point. Still think its funny that people try to bend the rules even though they were clearly going to win.

I'm going to revive this thread after a game I had on vassal tonight.

I've actually had this target lock situation happen before on vassal, with a player I've witnessed do it multiple times because he was flying Dash.

However this was the first time in awhile I think that I've had it happen again. Of course on vassal it's much easier to abuse than in real life.

In my game tonight my opponent had fel and vader, and several times used vader to declare target locks out of range to determine how his ships would boost and/or barrel roll. The first few times were "sort" of credible so I didn't think much of it. But then later in the game he clearly used it to his advantage. He had a target lock on one ship already, and checked for a target lock on a ship behind him. Considering he was flying away from me, made no sense to move the lock anyways, but it was also clearly out of range of the further back ship, he just wanted to see if my ship in front could shoot at him, which I could, so of course he then boosted out of firing range.

I do hope FFG addresses this at some point (or have they in recent FAQ updates??). Not sure how the best way to handle it is though. I think losing your action for the turn is too harsh. Perhaps say if you check for a TL , and it's out of range, you cannot perform any boost or barrel roll actions. That way you still get an action, just not a repositioning action.

Still waiting for a rule citation.

Well pulled it from the rules refrence glossary page 3.

ACQUIRE A TARGET LOCK

Ships with the <target lock> icon in their action bar may perform the acquire a target lock action to acquire a target lock on an enemy ship at Range 1–3. While attacking, a ship can spend a target lock that it has on the defender to reroll any number of its attack dice.

A target lock consists of a red target lock token and a blue target lock token displaying the same letter. When a target lock is acquired, assign the blue target lock token to the ship performing the action (the locking ship), and assign the red target lock token on the target (the locked ship). Target locks are not removed during the End phase. A ship can maintain one target lock. If a ship acquires a new target lock, it must remove its old target lock.

• A ship that does not have the <target lock> icon in its action bar can acquire and maintain a target lock granted by another game effect.

• If a ship spends a target lock as part of the cost of an ability, that target lock does not also allow the ship to reroll attack dice.

• If a player declares an acquire a target lock action for his ship and the enemy ship he wants to lock is not at range, he may choose a different ship to lock or a different action entirely.

• If an ability instructs a ship to “acquire a target lock,” this is different than performing an acquire a target lock action. The ship acquires the target lock without performing an action, and it may do so even if it has already performed the acquire a target lock action this round.

• A ship can acquire a new target lock on a ship that it already has locked; the old target lock is removed.

• A ship can spend a target lock and choose not to reroll any dice.

• If an effect removes a blue or red target lock

token from a ship, the matching red or blue target lock token is also removed (unless the blue target lock is assigned to another ship).

• A ship can be locked by more than one enemy ship.

So the entire rules reference. Yes you can declare target lock on any ship on the table. Then measuring to confirm that it is beyond range 3. As mentioned if chosen ship from target lock is beyond range then you can select another ship.

It is legal and in the rules as such. Those that claim its an abuse or exploitation of a loop hole I find belong to the " NO PRE-MEASURING BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT ALLOWED IN WARHAMMER TABLE TOP GAMES " camp. Well sorry to tell everyone this but X-wing is not warhammer .

Is it gamy, yeah a little but that doesn't make it bad conduct or cheating. To be fair the target lock action is kind of restrictive when compared to other actions or even on what it was based upon in the X-wing and Tie Fighter PC games. Still here are some things to consider before calling a TO who will find that the other player is acting within the rules. Also if you are a TO then you should be focusing on if it is a rule violations not on your opinion of what the rules should be.

• Information works both ways. If they are measuring and the Target lock fails go ahead and ask them to measure again so you can also get the positioning information and use it accordingly.
• When measuring it must be to the declared target, not a ship on the other side. So they name a target and measure straight to it and see if it is in range and even what range (there is nothing to say you can't measure range 1-2 in a target lock action). However the one thing I would stop on is if they do a whole arc or base circle sweep as if in the combat phase. So basically this is my interpretation of the target lock action sequence.

1. Declare Target lock action and name any opponents ship (does not have to be in range 3)
2. With the range ruler measure directly from the active ships base to the chosen ships base and determine if the target lock is successful. Ships in the way if needed can be marked.
3. If chosen ship is within range 1-3 assign target lock tokens and end action. If necessary range can be remeasured to ensure it was correct. If not then a different ship may be selected for target lock or a new action can be made.

Make them measure from the other ship then lol

Make them measure from the other ship then lol

Good idea!

Holy crap, I didn't even know you can't measure stuff with range ruler freely! My group has always been playing with free use of range ruler anytime you want and it was never a terrifying issue. I guess we'll have to readjust. Same with declaring barrel roll direction. I guess it's just the result of coming from wargaming communities where pre-measuring is normal and if it's forbidden, there are ways to do it in your head or remembering how long in inches is your hand and then converting that to game's ranges as you picture your hand there.

Truth is - people will always find a way to exploit the system and if you try to make it as tight as it can be, you'll have a whole book of amendments for every single phase, step and rule.

That being said, I see no real issue with TL probing. I just try to picture it cinematically - the guy's targetting computer struggles to get a lock on the target as it's too far/too wobbly, so after a few attempts (maybe even simultaneous) he just decides to screw it and uses boosters/rolls to get into more comfortable position to shoot on his own. Sure, it's just a little idea that popped in my head literally the moment I was writing this post, but if I can make an "excuse" plausible enough within a second, it could probably work.