Durik's choice to move into an occupied square prevents him from using his heroic feat- them's the breaks.

Zaltyre - I'm not sure I understand your position here. Are you specifically talking about Durik moving from a space occupied by a monster into another space occupied by a monster and attempting to use his heroic feat on the first monster? That would ring true to me as I believe the errata says somewhere that when interrupting a move action, a hero/monster must be able to place his figure on the map and while in this instance there is no move action involved, I think it would be fair to assume this rule applies to all action interrupts.

My position is that neither Durik (nor any figure) can do anything while moving through a space occupied by a different figure except keep moving, unless they have an ability that lets them displace said other figure (see: Steelhorns, Plague worm.)

That last sentence of my previous reply was unclear- it was in reference to the situation in the link in Charmy's comment. Paraphrasing, it was "Durik the skirmisher carves a path, but when he steps out of a space containing a monster, he steps directly into another space containing a hero, and uses his heroic feat."

I know there is a rule that states that a figure cannot interrupt movement in order to perform a different action unless the figure is occupying an empty square. However, is there a rule that a figure cannot perform an attack ? Durik's feat is not an action, it is a kind of action-less attack. That was the point of contention in the thread link I posted.

I think we all agree though that regardless of whether Durik can move into an occupied square when he uses his feat, if he does use it during Carve a Path, the Surge:Pierce3 only applies to that one feat attack right after leaving that square, and the separate Carve a Path attack occurs after the whole movement is completed.

The issue is not whether it is an action, but whether or not it is an interrupt. We have several examples of non-action abilities that constitute interrupting a movement- suffering fatigue to gain MP, Wildlander's "Nimble", Knight's "Guard", None of these abilities may be used while in a space containing another figure, or on a space with more than one figure. What makes Durik's feat different?

Well, in the Knight's case, the Guard ability was explicitly errata'd to include the words "When a monster moves into an empty space." This means that this rule is specific to Guard itself.

As for Nimble, I'm not sure where it applies. You can use Nimble to move 1 space, but there is no disagreement about a figure being unable to end their movement in an occupied space.

Or are you talking about whether Nimble can be used if the monster had just moved into an occupied space next to the Wildlander? I wasn't aware of that ruling, but that would be something.

So I guess what makes Durik's feat different is that there has been no errata that declares that Durik must move into an empty space before performing his attack. Given the prior precedent FFG has set of an ability needing to specify "empty space" or not, I think that unless there exists a ruling that states that interrupts in general (not interrupt actions) inherently have this limitation, they do not.

I agree with charmy, that there is no requirement for Durik's feat to move into an empty space and I don't see why his feat couldn't be activated during Carve a Path, as the only requirement is to move out of a space containing a monster. Strong Combo.

Or are you talking about whether Nimble can be used if the monster had just moved into an occupied space next to the Wildlander? I wasn't aware of that ruling, but that would be something.

That is exactly what I'm talking about- it's been ruled that, for example, if Jain tries to "Nimble" away from a moving large monster, she can't do it unless that monster can legally interrupt its movement. That is, an ability that is clearly not an action still requires that movement be interrupted, and you very explicitly cannot interrupt movement (or have your movement interrupted) unless you're in an empty space.

If Durik were to leave a monster's space and go to an empty space, I'd have no problem with him executing his heroic feat as an additional attack during "Carve a Path"- it's the fact that he's in an occupied space when he does it, that is the problem.

Referencing "Guard," it's my opinion that errata was put in specifically to enforce the rule about interruptions requiring empty spaces- I take that to support my position, not detract from it.

Referencing "Guard," it's my opinion that errata was put in specifically to enforce the rule about interruptions requiring empty spaces- I take that to support my position, not detract from it.

When I see a card explicitly state something, I usually take it to mean that it is an exception that applies to that specific card, rather than reiterating something that is already part of the rules.

However, you're right, you can view the errata as either supporting or detracting from your position.

I think this may benefit from an FFG ruling. I'll send an e-mail to ask for clarification. If you're right, this might be another excellent entry for the Rules document you were writing Zaltyre. Namely, the definition and limitations of an "interrupt" and what abilities fall under that definition (many of them do not contain the word "interrupt" in them, or any common terminology)

Ordinarily, I would agree that stating explicitly implies that it is the exception. However, there are enough countercases in D2e that I have stopped assuming that.

If you guys end up being right, it will change how I interpret interruptions, too. I'm planning an update for that thing as it is.

...you can't even spend your last MP to enter a blocked space, then suffer a fatigue to get out- you must suffer the fatigue before entering it- and that's definitely not an action.

While this is a bit off-topic, and while your statement is true, in practice it probably wouldn't be a big deal since if you wanted to spend your last MP to move into that blocked space, you could spend your fatigue to get another MP before moving there instead, giving you the extra MP you need to move out. IE, while you couldn't move-then-spend fatigue, you could just do it in the other order, and unless there's an effect I can't think of, it would have the same net outcome anyway

...you can't even spend your last MP to enter a blocked space, then suffer a fatigue to get out- you must suffer the fatigue before entering it- and that's definitely not an action.

While this is a bit off-topic, and while your statement is true, in practice it probably wouldn't be a big deal since if you wanted to spend your last MP to move into that blocked space, you could spend your fatigue to get another MP before moving there instead, giving you the extra MP you need to move out. IE, while you couldn't move-then-spend fatigue, you could just do it in the other order, and unless there's an effect I can't think of, it would have the same net outcome anyway

Absolutely- we have a standing house rule that moves can be undone/reworked until a die roll is made or some other information is revealed (OL playing a card, etc.) Besides that, if you run out of movement points and you're not in an empty space, it wasn't legal for you to move into that space in the first place, so you must backtrack and execute your movement differently. I brought the example up purely to illustrate that even abilities that are not actions cause interruption of movement, and can only be performed while in empty spaces- not to suggest that people enforce the timing that strictly in practice.

Gaining a MP before or after does not affect the net result. Performing a pierce 3 attack in a certain spot or not at all certainly does.

I can agree with that

And while we´re at it...

I would assume Mordrog's heroic feat cannot trigger as a follow up to the attack from Carve a Path, as it seems to require a target? The condition for the ability to trigger seems legit though, since Carve a Path does not technically defeat a target (there is no target). The resolution part of the ability however doesn't seem applicable?

Talking about untargetted attacks, I seemed to remember one particular heroic feat and finally remembered this morning:

Tethery's heroic feat (she's a scout, so n/a with regards to Carve a Path, but carry on reading) allows her to add two targets to an attack on the sole condition that "attack dices are rolled". That's really interesting, because it would mean that she could trigger this on an attack that does not target (even life loss attacks as long as they make you roll dices?), and add two targets to it? Which leads me to the question: can you alter the "targetted/untargetted" attribute of an attack?

There are very few abilities that allow attacks without a target (I am working under the assumption that Carve and Sweep count.) Beyond those 2 examples, Widow Tarha's heroic feat comes to mind, but in almost all cases, an attack has at least one target space, and then an ability lets more spaces be affected. Just because an attack is radial doesn't mean it lacks a target, either. Leroic's feat, Whirlwind, Ignite, and Fire all "target" all adjacent figures.

I am not aware of a targetless attack that Tetherys can peform- "rolling attack dice" I think requires her to be rolling at least a blue, as that dice is termed the "attack die" and the red, yellow, and green are "power dice." Also, the phrase "...that attack" implies that the initial roll must have been for an attack- rolling the blue die to check "Poison Barbs" wouldn't satisfy the requirement. Additionally, with her hero ability, her feat essentially means she can roll, then declare 3 targets for her attack- which is pretty cool, especially if she happens to be a wildlander using "Black Arrow." However, if there were an attack that "affected" a figure without targeting it, I don't see why she couldn't increase the number of targets from 0 to 2, rather than the usual 1 to 3.

Regarding abilities that specify "target", I don't think feats like Mordrog's (or Trenloe's) would be able to be used in those cases. The Skirmisher skill "Unrelenting" has slightly different wording "Exhaust this card after resolving an attack with a Melee weapon with 1 hand icon. Perform an attack that targets one of the same monsters with a different Melee weapon with 1 hand icon." Since the trigger is just attacking and not defeating a monster, then performing an attack that targets that monster (or one of them if you attacked multiple,) I'd think that could follow Carve (assuming none of the monsters were defeated.)

There are very few abilities that allow attacks without a target (I am working under the assumption thwt Carve and Sweep count.) Beyond those 2 examples, Widow Tarha's heroic feat comes to mind, but in almost all cases, an attack has at least one target space, and then an ability lets more spaces be affected.

...or the opposite, in the case of Tetherys: an attack without targets, and then an ability that assigns additional targets to that attack. Not sure such ability exists, though. Life loss (by rolling attack dices) seems anti-thematic for the archetype, however who knows if a AoE attack can be released in the future for the scout archetype.

EDIT: I see you answered above. Masters of editing at work =)

We are not playing this week. But as promised I will keep you informed, as soon as we played the mentioned quest. Regards

I disagree- Durik cannot use his heroic feat if he's not in an empty space, as that would constitute interrupting an action, which can only be done in an empty space . If he steps into an empty space during Carve a Path, that might work, but it would definitely be a separate attack.

Thinking of this.... I'd go further: Durik cannot use his heroic feat, as that would constitute interrupting an action, which cannot absolutely be done . If I'm not wrong, only movement actions can be interrupted, and Carve a Path is not. Right?

And talking about this... Can a movement action which is part of an special action be interrupted? I'm thinking of 'Cry Havoc' and 'Overpower' (don't remember right now if there is some example on the hero side).

It true that the only actions that talk about being interrupted are move actions and I admit being hesitant to let a Skirmisher interrupt "Carve a Path" at all- for example, Jain can't suffer fatigue during her heroic feat (but fatigue suffering for MP is specifically defined when it ca happen). However, the question becomes this- couldn't the OL play "Pit Trap" when Durik moves out of a space containing a monster during Carve a Path? That triggers off of entering a space just like Durik's heroic feat does. I'm not aware of a rule that ENEMY effects can interrupt but FRIENDLY ones cannot, and so it makes for a hairy situation.

Jain could interrupt Alric's Overpower or Belhir's Cry Havoc to Nimble- again, as it triggers off of moving into a space. OL could also play "Pit Trap" on an Advancing or Oath of Honoring knight. All of these actions would still fully resolve (unless the figure got defeated,) but I don't think that preclude's the possibility of playing them.

Hmm, very good point... Now I'm even more puzzled. OL definetely CAN interrupt hero's ' move actions ', even if they are not movement actions. Can heroes interrupt themselves? I'd say no, but I wouldn't trust mysefl right now.

Then, we agree in heores interrumping those lieutenants while performing such actions. But, can they then interrupt themselves to do another action during the movement, and later, finishing the first action?

I'm not aware of a rule that ENEMY effects can interrupt but FRIENDLY ones cannot, and so it makes for a hairy situation.

I'd say that is exactly the point, and I think is worth asking FFG. Could you please? I think I reached my limit today of writing English...

I will submit the question, but after a review of the relevant sections in the review book, I'm confident he can. I think the spot you and I are both thinking of is on page 7, under "perform actions."

Unless noted otherwise, an action must be resolved completely before the hero performs his next action.

it is noted otherwise only for move actions. However, Durik's heroic feat is an odd one in that it is not an action , even though it is an attack. There is no rule (that I can find) about triggering non-action abilities during other actions, an in fact we've already come up with several examples about where such things are allowed. There is, however, a rule about only ending or interrupting movement in empty spaces, so I maintain that holds here.

Carve the Path is just a special case where there is no target to the attack. Every figure that is passed through is merely 'affected' by it. I suspect FFG would say the same. This means Stealthy is useless against it, but Shadow works fine if the attack began next to the shadow dragon.

Interestingly, it also makes it powerful in that it will completely sidestep any card text that occurs when something is 'targeted' by an attack. For instance, this lets a hero Carve a Path through a monster adjacent to an Ironbound without giving the Ironbound an opportunity to Protect.

Turns out you're correct. I got a response from FFG:

We played this evening and as promised I will tell you what happened.

We played the act 2 quest "the shadow ritual". I took the shadow dragons and the medusas. The quest gave me lord merrik farrow and the flesh moulders.

Scene 1:

I placed the shadow dragons in the great hall and the medusas on the stairs. I placed the shadow dragons, so that they did not block the heroes - to save them from getting slaughtered by Orkell. And then the butchering began. Orkell ran onto the stairs and killed to medusas. Jain gave a shot onto the dragon and one on the master medusa still alive. Rendiel and Shiver killed the minion dragon. But shiver ran onto a web trap and was immobilized.

The medusa missed Orkell. The shadow dragon takes a hard hit on Shiver and blocked him in the back where he was stuck. Merrik rolled for the ritual and made it.

Heroes killed the last medusa. Orkell slowly goes forward and rests. Shiver ist still stuck.

Shiver falls to the shadow dragon. The flesh moulders spread to not get killed by a single carve. Merrik rolled for the ritual and made it.

Orkell carves to a flesh moulder, killing it and damages Merrik. The first scene ends with two markers for the overlord.

Scene 2:

Now there was the revenge. Shadow drangons on the long corridor and medusas in the hall.

Overlord starts and moves Merrik two spaces. Master flesh moulder damages Jain, minion opens door for Merrik. Master Shadow Dragon attacks Jain - not killing her - and blocks sight to stop first strike on Merrik. Merrik runs and stops shortly behind the minion shadow dragon still on the long corridor.

Heroes try to kill shadow dragon master but fail. Orkell carves twice killing to minion flesh moulders on the first run and damaged the shadow dragon and Merrik on the second.

Medusas open the door. Orkell get immobilized and stunned by the sneak heads - 3 hearts and 2 surges against 2 shields. Master flesh moulder kills Jain. Master shadow dragon kills Shiver. Minion shadow dragon kills Rendiel, with frenzy. Merrik runs another time.

Heroes get up. Orkell ist stuck.

Merrik leaves the cave. Victory for the Overlord!

Medusas made it in this quest. Thanks for all the help and inspiration!

Medusas are a good counter to the skirmisher- his lack of defensive skills (and dice since orkell) make him susceptible to conditions. if you stun or immobilize him, that hurts. Keep in mind the skill where he can discard one of those.

If they hit yes.... I keep giving Medusae a chance because of that same reason, but they keep deceiving me. My experience with them tells me they´re not a viable choice unless you can complement them with OL/plot cards, or if the heroes are not geared up to consistently negate their damage.

If they hit yes.... I keep giving Medusae a chance because of that same reason, but they keep deceiving me. My experience with them tells me they´re not a viable choice unless you can complement them with OL/plot cards, or if the heroes are not geared up to consistently negate their damage.

Oh, I agree- they definitely benefit from damage boosting OL cards, since they can't add any surge damage. My point was mainly that the skirmisher is more susceptible to medusae since he doesn't really have any defensive skills (except for discarding a stunned or immobilized condition), and since it's Orkell we're talking about, he has a native brown dice.