Hallo, this is my first post. I am starting this post, because I am out of ideas - and here is why:

We have been playing "The shadow rune" for quite a while. We are using the "Lair of the wyrm" expansion actively and agreed to use all expansions. The group consists of the following characters:

• Jain as a wildlander
• Shiver as a necromancer
• Rendiel as a bard
• Orkell as a skirmisher

I have been playing overlord for quite a while and the players know the game quite well. So it had been a harsh fight all the time and winning or losing was very close for both parties. That is what I had most of the time, when playing Descent 2ed in different groups.

But now Orkell got "Carve a path" and an axe (blue + red + red, pierce 1, surge = pierce +2) and the overlord is losing all the time. The quest had been "The twin idols", "The monster's hoard" and "Armed to the teeth" (Valyndra). And even the heros were bored, because Orkell kills monster groups with such ease - and I yet found no way to stop him.

Orkell got strength 4 and the trinket (re-roll) so he most often ignores the usual traps. I cannot block him with any monster, he will just carve the path through the monster. When I think about monsters with immobilize or stun, he just kills them. "Carve a path" gives movement +1 and starting close to Rendiel he gets movement +1 for a song. So he moves 7 and then carves a path length 6! That is enough to reach and kill many monsters in a room, before they are able to attack in a way that matters.

So you have got some ideas - how to block him, stop him, get lost of his stamina, immobilize him or whatever?

Thanks in advance.

There's no straight up answer to that question, but I do have a couple of suggestions:

- Curse him, so he cannot use the skill at all.

- Use large monsters. They cannot suffer more than one attack from that skill even if Orkell goes through it multiple times.

- Reflective Ward from Basic II. If he does 1 million damage, he also suffers 1 million damage.

- Imploding Rift (shadowmancer) to make him lose fatigue, seems like it would work on a 2 Willpower Orkell.

- Imitation (unkindness class) as an alternative if you want to trap him while he attacks the Raven Flock. You obviously need the Call of the Ravens skill as well. Other problem is that Imitation is a 2XP card so you might not be able to get it at all.

- Try to spread out your monsters so Orkell has to waste movement to reach all figures.

- Use fatigue-draining monsters like Bargeists.

- Rendiel should be your prime target if he's not already.

Just to add to the above; in addition to spreading out your monsters to minimize the number of them he can reach in one go, you could also try positioning the chain so as to lead Orkell away from the important monsters and/or the rest of the group. ie: He can go after the one important monster and maybe get one or two others along the way, or he can slice up like 6 irrelevant monsters and end up in some dark, forgotten corner of the map. Then he gets to spend most of his next turn getting back to a position that matters.

Could be an effective distraction if Orkell's player is obsessed with hitting as many monsters as possible with one attack.

Remember that Orkell can only "Carve a Path" equal to his SPEED. Additional movement points (such as those granted by the Bard) can not be spent during "Carve a Path" (that is, Orkell, with the skill purchased, can move through a maximum of 5 monster spaces- the last space must be an empty end point.

Also, the easiest way to stop Orkell (that I know of) is to drain his fatigue- Carve a Path costs 3, and until he buys "Unstoppable" or otherwise ups his stamina, Orkell can only use it once before recovering some. If you can stick him with enough fatigue, he won't be able to use his actions. Indalecio covered all the good ways. I would remind you to check the FAQ about how to use "Reflective Ward." It will only work on one monster, and it's not as strong as the printed card text would lead you to believe.

EDIT: Got some stuff wrong, so I had to use Carve a Path through my post

[...]

I think one of the best ways besides fatigue-drain effects is intimidation through the use of "trap" cards (damage backfiring, etc like I suggested earlier). So that the Orkell player needs to assess every turn whether it's worth taking the risk or not. I think this has superior disruption power than actual fatigue disruption. And at the same time, try to have a clever monster positioning to minimize the damage. And get the hell out of his sight if the quest resolves around anything else than combat.

But yeah, cutting through two large monsters instead of 5 small ones means what he just did was "only" a double attack, nothing more. A double attack that cost him 3 fatigue. Warriors normally need the extra fatigue to get to melee range.

Maybe the OL can use the situation to pull Orkell out of the party a bit and have a gang of other monsters jump him just because he wanted to get the last monster out of greed.

There is another card from Basic II (Sign of Weakness) which moves the monsters 1 space away if the hero rests, upon failing an awareness test, which Orkell cannot be strong at doing. It gives you some room to put some of your monsters out of reach probably.

I agree with your point, Indalecio, even though the fatigue recovered through resting doesn't come back until the end of turn- it's true, that's still not going to keep him from the action at least a couple times.

I recently played as Orkell the Skirmisher, and I particularly liked him for this reason- he can have 6 stamina and 6 speed (unstoppable and carve a path,) which is just devastating. His 4 strength AND awareness make a big difference for traps (though willpower and book tests work great)- one of his downfalls is the native brown die, especially since Carve a Path relies on speed, he won't be wearing any heavy armor (though with his heroic feat, at least 1 KO per map is inconsequential.)

That's quite embarassing, but thanks to you Zaltyre I realize we have been playing Rest actions wrong the whole time! That just makes my day, so tired of these "combos" they were pulling off against me, lol.

I need to apologize then for the misleading information, I´ll try to edit the above post to make these things disappear so people don't get too confused.

That's quite embarassing, but thanks to you Zaltyre I realize we have been playing Rest actions wrong the whole time! That just makes my day, so tired of these "combos" they were pulling off against me, lol.

I need to apologize then for the misleading information, I´ll try to edit the above post to make these things disappear so people don't get too confused.

No worries- I now understand your ruthless attitude as an OL.

Thank you for your help.

Right now have been playing all rules as they are intended - so now way to get better chances by playing it the right way.

You asked for some details on the quest and here they are: Next we are playing the shadow ritual and Orkell already got speed 6 and stamina 7 (incl. equipment) - I lost 3 quests in a row, so the XP of the heroes exploded.

My plan:

I will place shadow drangons in the hall: The minion will block the passage between the rubble and the master will stay in the background. Who ever blocks in front will die, so it is better that the minion dies. Barghest or medusa will start on the stairs, ready to charge into the hall. Lord Merrik Farrow and the flesh moulders will be in the ritual room.

I am armed with some traps, including web trap and shadow rift. As well there are some cards from the Warlord-class. Merrik is having the fortune dice for the chance of getting extra cards. I am having only one XP to buy new skills.

What I am afraid of:

Orkell will charge into the hall and carve his path twice - both dragons are dead. Jain and Shiver will get LOS to the barghest or medusa and kill one or two of them. In my round will only be a weak counter attack. The stamina drain will conclude in 2 points stamina loss at best. Round 2 Rendiel is singing to get the heros one point of stamina back (Skill: Concentration). With ease the other heroes will kill the rest of the monsters that started on the stairs. Round 3 the heroes are moving forward regaining one stamina - I am getting the chance to fire some bolts with the flesh moulders make a few points of damage. Round 4 gives one stamina by the song. Orkell is ready again - moving at speed 7 by Bard skill Dissonance and carving a path length 6. This is enough to kill 3 of the flesh moulders and damage Merrik. Act 1 is finished.

Act 2 begins. Merrik and only 1 flesh moulder are starting in the ritual room. Barghest/medusa are in the room next to the ritual room and the shadow dragons are in the hall. I am having 7 overlord cards hoping for some traps and a dash. And I am having a bad feeling how this will end.

Not all hope is lost. And in this situation I am having the feeling, that the medusa might be the better choice, because they can immobilize and maybe stun and some traps will stop the rest. Merrik might dash and open the second door, while the medusa might help to close the doors after Merrik passed.

Regarding monster choices, it's a shame you´re stuck with Shadow Dragons, as Golems (even Ironbounds - put between the rubbles lol, and Giants to lesser extent - high HP but no ironskin) would have been better tanks considering Pierce is in the equation.

Medusae is a great choice IF you can make sure they deal at least one damage. If your heroes are overgeared in defense or if you lack the OL card power to pull that damage through I wouldn't choose them for the job. Sure, you can also get lucky, but let's say if your target rolls more than a gray dice for defense then you can't really rely on that. If you decide to go with them try to kite the heroes as much as you can.

A few other choices I would consider if I were you: The master Wendigo forces heroes to spend stamina when they move to a space adjacent to him. If Orkell wants to Carve a Path through him that's 2 additional fatigue required. The Stealthy ability requires an extra 3 range on the dice but that's if Carve a Path targets the monster. The card doesn't really say that it targets so I would think Stealthy does not work in this case, but I´ll let Zaltyre clarify this one

Then Chaos Beasts are 2x2 monsters (they serve well to block a corridor of the same width), come with 3 figures, and would roll RRB + Sorcery if in sight of Orkell. If you´re looking for killing heroes they might be a good choice.

As an additional piece of advice for this particular quest, if the heroes ever look like they´re going to Merrick, try to block the corridor with Flesh Moulers to force Orkell to attack and spend fatigue on trying to clear the hallway. Getting two "walls" of Flesh moulders with some decent space in between could give you some extra time to win the encounter, especially if you make sure Orkell cannot use Carve a Path twice in a row.

Some notes- Dissonance does not increase Orkell's Speed- it can not help him carve a longer path- if his Speed value is 6, he can only carve up to 6 spaces total regardless of his movement points. That is, he can at most attack 1 less monster than his speed (in this case that's 5), since his last space moved must be into an empty space- he cannot interrupt "Carve a Path" to spend MP.

Also- even though it doesn't say it on the card, "Concentration" is supposed to have "during your turn" in there. The bard can only exhaust concentration during his turn (that is, he cannot rest, recover fatigue, and then at the end of his turn use concentration.)

I think I explained it wrong, what I meant is this: Orkell got speed 5 and speed +1 from carve a path. With Concentration he can move 7 spaces (move action) and then carve a path of length 6. But the radius of 13 spaces is huge!

The heroes are very strong, but what they are missing is a good defense. So the medusas seem the right choice for me. I love the idea with the wendigos and started painting them (I am only playing with painted miniatures). When I find a way to make the wendigos survive the first turn the backlash will be great - together with the medusas. I think the right way will be to make as much damage as possible and to make them waste that much stamina, that they will not kill all flesh moulders. This will give me a good start in to the second encounter.

Thank you very much for your help!

We will be playing next week - I will keep you informed how it comes out.

Sounds good- Orkell can definitely benefit from that movement point from "Dissonance" before or after his "Carve a Path" action- I just wanted to emphasize that he shouldn't be getting an extra attack during the skill from it, since that's limited by his Speed. Descent can be hard enough on the OL when the heroes play by the rules- it can get very unbalanced if things get overlooked. Good luck!

If you happen to be using Basic II, don't overlook cards like "Uncontrolled Power" against Orkell. It might be prime on a mage, but it can also be quite good against "Carve a Path," since you get to affect the entire attack.

I think most has been already said, so here are a few general advices.

Shadow dragons could work really well. Keep in mind that Orkhell needs to spend a surge everytime he declares an attack and is adjacent to a shadowdragon (even when attacking other monsters). With Blue, red, red this could really cost him a few attacks or at least keep him from using too many surges. So I think it would be a legit strategy to guard your monsters with the dragon (as long as there aren't any blasts on the hero-team), because you could lure him to a certain point of the map, which is advantagous if he has such a huge movement-radius.

Against his pierce-heavy weapon golems and ironbounds should work really well.

Merriods imo shouldn't be underestimated in act II, as they become very powerfull. The additional yellow die ensures them more surges, so they can really use the immobilize condition well. It helps that they have reach, so an immobilized melee-hero usually can't hit back or counter attack easily.

I also imagine deep elves could work well against Orkell. They are stealthy (with BRR this means Orkell will not hit them or he has to roll a weak blue die side) have high HP, are fast and have a high automatic pierce (which means they basically ignore defense most of the time). Their defense isn't that good, but Orkell seemes to pierce through it anyways.

The new crypt dragons also could work well in certain instances. Their horrifying ability coupled with cause fear could lead to a few nice immobilizations against Orkell (especially if you have OL cards that ensure him failing the test).

I really like your idea about using medusa, however keep in mind they won't do much against high defense.

good luck and I hope you will tell us how everything worked out.

Just saw the note above- Stealthy clearly says "target", and Carve a path just says it "affects" all monsters moved through. I don't think Stealthy would apply.

I think the reason Carve a Path doesn't list a target (such as the first or last monster) is that depending on where the skirmisher ends up, that monster may not be a valid target (due to range, LOS). The idea of carve a path is clearly that the skirmisher attacks as he moves through, but rolling beforehand would hardly be fair.

The solution, like it or not, results in an attack with no target space- just affected spaces. Just like with blast, though, conditions and such will chain to all affected spaces.

This might be a good question to send in, to make sure that it is treated as a "target space attack" effect like fire-breath, rather than a series of attacks.

This might be a good question to send in, to make sure that it is treated as a "target space attack" effect like fire-breath, rather than a series of attacks.

I'll send the question in for clarity. It's clearly just one attack, but it seems to be an attack without a target space.

EDIT: Question sent. I'll post the response when I get it.

It's a bit weird to be honest, the hero is physically performing a melee attack as he passes through his enemies, as opposed to an area of effect with no target. It's just it's the same attack against all monsters.

It's a bit weird to be honest, the hero is physically performing a melee attack as he passes through his enemies, as opposed to an area of effect with no target. It's just it's the same attack against all monsters.

It is a bit weird- it's different than a fire breath or a blast attack, which have an initial target, and then affect additional spaces, since there is no "initial space-" all spaces are equally "affected" (and that distinction between targeted and affected has been made multiple times in the past.) The wording is almost identical to the giant's "Sweep"- which I also included in the question. The way to carry out the attack is pretty clear- the text of the skill overrides "Step 1" of combat, and steps 2-5 proceed as normal. Since it's one attack, surges and other affects apply to all the monsters affected. I would think abilities like "move the target 1 space" could not be used, but what of conditions? (In the question.) I think those would be OK, because we already have precedent for conditions affecting non-targets (again, for example, in blast attacks.)

For what it's worth, I think that letting "Carve a Path" ignore "Stealthy" would be a disappointing and unfortunate ruling. If each affected target rolls its own defense, "Stealthy" is clearly a critical aspect of defense.

For what it's worth, I think that letting "Carve a Path" ignore "Stealthy" would be a disappointing and unfortunate ruling. If each affected target rolls its own defense, "Stealthy" is clearly a critical aspect of defense.

It is true that "stealthy" is a boon to any figure's defense- but since it's a single attack and it can't both miss and not miss at the same time, if even one of the monsters had stealthy, should they all get the bonus from stealthy? I think that's quite unfair in the other direction, and they shouldn't- that's the direction the rules went with fire breath and blast. For those(which have a primary target,) if the targeted figure has "stealthy," it will indeed affect the entire attack. However, if one of the figures that is just "affected" has "stealthy." it is not factored in in that situation, either.

As Zaltyre and others have suggested, I think Carve the Path is just a special case where there is no target to the attack. Every figure that is passed through is merely 'affected' by it. I suspect FFG would say the same. This means Stealthy is useless against it, but Shadow works fine if the attack began next to the shadow dragon.

Interestingly, it also makes it powerful in that it will completely sidestep any card text that occurs when something is 'targeted' by an attack. For instance, this lets a hero Carve a Path through a monster adjacent to an Ironbound without giving the Ironbound an opportunity to Protect.

I have a question. How does Carve A Path interact with Durik's heroic feat? Exiting a space containing a monster during the carve a path action allows Durik to trigger his feat so how does the additional attack work? Do you immediately interrupt the carve a path action to resolve the attack from the feat, and then continue moving from carve a path and resolve that attack? Or is it all considered to be one attack and since a figure can only be affected by an attack once, the additional attack from the feat is rendered moot? If so, does the carve a path attack still benefit for the surge: pierce 3 bonus from the feat?

I have a question. How does Carve A Path interact with Durik's heroic feat? Exiting a space containing a monster during the carve a path action allows Durik to trigger his feat so how does the additional attack work? Do you immediately interrupt the carve a path action to resolve the attack from the feat, and then continue moving from carve a path and resolve that attack? Or is it all considered to be one attack and since a figure can only be affected by an attack once, the additional attack from the feat is rendered moot? If so, does the carve a path attack still benefit for the surge: pierce 3 bonus from the feat?

There is an interesting discussion of Durik's feat that even brings up Carve a Path here:

http://www.descentinthedark.com/2nd/pathfinder-durik/#comments

My conclusion from that thread and your question is that at any point during the Carve a Path movement, a hero may choose to use Durik's heroic feat to perform an attack with "Surge:Pierce 3" on a monster they have just left the space of. Then, after the conclusion of the movement, the Carve a Path attack is carried out. This attack does not have the "Surge:Pierce3". Its true that a figure can only be affected by an attack once, but these are two separate attacks.

I disagree- Durik cannot use his heroic feat if he's not in an empty space, as that would constitute interrupting an action, which can only be done in an empty space. If he steps into an empty space during Carve a Path, that might work, but it would definitely be a separate attack.

A figure cannot occupy a blocked space. It can sometimes move through blocked spaces, but it cannot stay there for any length of time. That is, if a figure enters a blocked space, the only thing it can do is move out- you can't even spend your last MP to enter a blocked space, then suffer a fatigue to get out- you must suffer the fatigue before entering it- and that's definitely not an action. it's the same reason every single trap card that deals with entering spaces specifies empty space. It's to prevent the forbidden situation of a hero being forced to stop in a blocked space.

The Skirmisher's "Carve a Path" attack is made from a space that is not necessarily adjacent to any of the monsters affected- another reason, I suspect, that there is no target- since melee attacks are required to target adjacent figures. However, just like Fire Breath can affect non-adjacent figures, "Carve a Path" uses the same language to the same effect- albeit with a different thematic meaning. It also ensures that the attack is physically carried out from an empty space.

Durik's choice to move into an occupied square prevents him from using his heroic feat- them's the breaks.